I read all these words... and others on others forum,
I read a lot and a lot of news, analyses like this :
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/03/19/1047749824415.html

Then please read all this.

I don't understand american people who said "France is not our allies", "French are with Sadam"... This is nonsense !!

France... JUST... have a different point of view, a different mind.
Then can we say our point of view ?
Can we have a position at the UN without being injured by USA & UK ? It's our right ! It's like a democracy, we can say what we think ! We don't give your order, we just use our right, the right to have a position, the right to vote else if at the end we (just) say we maybe use our veto (we don't did it no ? USA did it more and more times than US at UN Council).
Then, just we have a different position (i repeat that we don't do anything against USA, we don't attack or injured you, we don't prevent you to do this war) and people (majority of stupid and patriotic people who not analyse all the situation and fact) injured and want to boycott France. These are not our allies, these don't merit it when they don't (just) listen our point of view.

It's not a shame to be pacifist, I want peace on earth, I want equality for all people. But I understand war, war is necessary in some case as someones say. For Afganistan, I (and european governement) understood it.

But for Iraq : my point of view (and the point of view of billions peoples) :

USA is governed by Bush administration who is nationalist, patriotic.
Bush says in 2000, governement will not spend time on externational problem like clintone done for israel & palestine. And he did nothing for this problem...
But :
Bush administration are "hawks", you all know, they all work or worked in big oil corporation.
Bush know since is election he will continue the war his father began. Because USA economy go down, Japan and Europe are more strength. USA will not rule the world... CIA knows that... they don't want that (like somebody here) other democracy could have power in the world.
Because USA has just 10 years oil stock, USA could not have a lot of interest in Iraq, USA have no good relationship in middle east... USA, in some years will have no oil, they will be less and less strong.

And then a lot of thing are official reason for attacking Iraq :
- Attack of 11 sept is one, just because the people who do this are arab. There's no link between bin laden and sadam. Sadam is a layman, Bin laden is islamist, more over he is in pakistan.
- Sadam hate america and america fight him 10 years ago, but not kill him then why not fighting him a second time and kill (or put him in jail) him.
- Sadam is a dictator (I only agree with this)
- Iraq is dangerous, this war is preventive -> ! -> There was hundred inspectors in Iraq, there was all the times satellite (and CIA, NSA...) which watch and listen all the country, there was hundred thousands soldier in the gulf.

There is semi-official reason too who are the essential ones :
- US economy and oil stock go down, then Iraq is the ideal country to control (100 years of oil, the second one after saudi arabia)
- US can say to the world, they are still rules the world, they don't care of UN.

Then, there is only one reason who can be "acceptable", US governement try and said all the others to convince people and country of the world. And then, it doesn't work like they believed.
Then they do the war without the UN rules and without respecting the world.
They said they are responsible of the last reason "acceptable".

I agree, sadam is an horrible dictators, but :
- The pacific way can have just some months more, Iraq was destructing his own arms, Iraq doesn't done massive killing last months, WE WERE IN A GOOD WAY AND UN INSPECTOR say this a lot of times. So why go to the last moment where sadam stop to accept UN demand ? why not more inspectors and some "months" ? WHY ?... WHY USA is so urged to do this war ? because none of their plan work to do this war, they lost money and MORE AND MORE PEOPLE in the world doesn't want it (like 75% of the country of the world and France who have power at the UN with a permanent chair at the council, this is why USA discredit us...). AND WHY IRAQ ?, north corea dictatorship kills hundreds children every days, they scrape the ground to find to eat, more over they maybe have nuclear power. And pakistan is being more and more the country of islamist after afghanistan, they are a dictatorship, have nuclear power too and bin laden is there...
but these countries and others have no more oil than Iraq... And BUSH the texan love it.

Then do this war of shame ! Oil and power war...
American media says there was some soldier died but know how many Iraqy soldier or civilian died ??? They don't tell a word about that.
Install a... what I heard ? ... a american governement in Iraq for 6 months afer the war... I don't understand ? why not a UN or Iraqi governement like in Kosovo ?
Maybe for the return of american oil corporation who was forbidden by Sadam...

Then ok ! do this stupid war (I don't believed that in the 21st century)...
Maybe this will increase a lot terrorism because a lot of people hate USA more and more in the world. (I don't speak for me but for people who are in middle east) but BUSH don't care of it, he prefer oil...
And then don't come discredit France, do your war, we don't prevent it and we have the right to not did it with USA&UK !

I hope Europe will be stronger and will live without America because i'm fed up.
I hope they will not have terrorism because of this war.
I hope few Iraqi civilians will not be killed by american (they don't have choice, american soldier have the choice, and they are armed).
I hope Bush will died eating bretzel (like Sharon, Poutine, Sadam or other dictators).

I'm fed up to heard "God bless america" after Bush said he will do a war, I don't believe in any god but I know that catholics said they don't want Bush to decide to what God want.
More over it is so easy to say this, and maybe Sadam say "God bless Iraq" it is exactly the same spirit.

When I was younger america make me dream, know I know what are power and human...
I hope European people understand all the errors they done on the past by fighting themself and will construct world were african, asian, american, oceanian... have their place, are equal. Because today, between 1 and 2 per-cent of european money go to poor countries, USA richer country gives between 0.1 and 0.2%... I don't say that Europe is perfect, but they are right some times too, america can JUST listen them... and not fight all people who has a different mind (that is not democracy...).

I hope that america and europe will reconcile and UN will work in the future but now, I don't believe it... It's sad...
I hope that Africa, Asia and poor countries will not be exploit by USA and Europe in the future... Europe try (a little, not enough!) to help them (1 to 2% of his budget for humanitarian aid), America don't (between 0.1 and 0.2%). But it's an other problem where i put my interest.

I will be computer engineer in one years and I will not use my money for my little personnal comfort, I will try to help others who with 1% of my money can eat for many days, open a little little business and grow in their society (not in the american or european one).

America want MacDo, Coke and hollywood movies everywhere, now they want to control the oil, I'm fed up...fed up realy. Now, and I'm sorry, I began to boycott american products (And I do ad to do this on my website), because it's enough.

I hope European will not follow this american way or I will not have any place on this world.
I believe in capitalism but not with this way.
Why not we choose to increase the global market by helping poor countries to have their place (if they want) and participate to this. With this help, they will devellop and then a market of billions people will stabilise a good and equal economy for all people. But today, it's not the way that America and Europe choose (and when I say Europe, I included France, because I not so "patriotic" to consider it as a "peace" or a "right" country).

Thank you to read it, even if it burn your brain, I spent more than an hour to write this, english is not my native language, you probably saw it.

Merci beaucoup !

Sylvain

Ok I believe it is time to hear from a Gulf War vet, a medic, who saw the effects of war on a civilian population.

War kills, war destroys, it is a plague on all mankind. The people of the world should turn against war at any cost, except at the cost of more innocent lives.

In the first Gulf War more people died from the hand of Saddam than any allied action. If you do not believe me check out Amnesty International, or many of the other human rights groups websites. Thousand's of Kuwaiti citizens are still missing and feared dead. In Kuwait City Saddams soldiers raped women, tortured innocents and killed for the most petty of offences. Saddam ordered the looting of Kuwait, stealing anything of value that was not nailed down. Under his reign the people of Kuwait suffered enormously, thier suffering only ended with the liberation of thier country by the might of the allied forces brought to bear on his regime.

Did I read this in a newspaper?

NO! I saw it with my own eyes, I treated the cvilians of Kuwaiti City, I heard thier stories, I saw thier wounds, and what will haunt me till the day i die, I saw the pain in thier faces when they talk of the dead or missing. I saw the destruction and murder that Saddam is capable of, I saw what he did in a matter of months!!! Imagine waht it is like to live under his regime for 30+ years.

War is not the answer we look for in situations like this. War is forced on us by the acts of pure evil. In this world sometimes you must pick up a weapon and say no more! The forces fighting evil in the gulf are not fighting for oil, as a soldier that would not be enough to keep you under fire. The soldiers are fighting for the overall betterment of the world.

Trust me when the bullets start cracking over your head you understand what war is. You will hate war, sometimes you will hate your leaders and even your country for putting you there. But then you realize you are part of an army, you are part of a group trained in war, and you realize you are scared. Then you imagine what it is like to be a civilian under the same fire, the same danger. You realize then how the innocents of the world, the women, the children and the elderly, suffer under these regimes. You then take that fear, you turn it into anger and you give these people the greatest gift you can, you put yourself in front of the guns and fight for thier freedom. You do not that for oil, you do not do that for the reasons listed above. You do it for the man standing beside you, you do it for the oppressed, you do it for your country, you do it for freedom.

Not to get personnel, but, Sylvain if it was not for the same forces fighting for the freedom of the Iraqi people, you would be part of the German Empire to this day. In your country there is a little piece of America, it was given to us by you goverment. It is a cemetery, in it are the Americans who died for your freedoms. I suggest you visit this most hallowed of places, and remember thier sacrifice, then I suugest you talk to the elders of your community that still remember the occupation.

There are no easy answers in these situations, politics and personnel animosities muddle the picture.
I only ask that you remember why they are over there, I only ask you to remember why they fight.

Viva la liberte!!!

MC

I support the military action against Iraq. My opinion is based on a lot of consideration of the facts and a fair knowledge of history.

Ok I meant personal animosities not personnel, sorry, has anybody seen my dictionary?

Sorry I don't agree with this official reason, people who died at this times are Iraqi... There was no war like in 1944 or 90' last week before the war, there was hundreds inspectors in a country totaly supervise by UN and USA (satelite, soldiers,....) . I agree Sadam is a bastard, I hate him.

Then ok, thank to you to give us freedom in 1944, but it not give you the right to command us every times you want for decades. And if you did it ok it's a very nice thing you done, but if you did this before it's for not having a dangerous europe controlled by the world expending dictors Hitler who will attack the rest of the world after. But I son't see or think to this, I just look what you have done and I thank america for that else I don't know how the world will became.
For official reasons you can read this, there are hundreds of website or TV-report (I don't believe you can see TV-report I saw on american networks controlled by corporation who have their interest in this war and do lobby Bush)

Visit this for exemple (independant from corporation):
http://www.villagevoice.com/specials/iraq/
I fear that USA is not a democracy like before. USA began to be controlled more and more by couple of Corporation/Politics who just look at money.
I loved Clinton who manage to Arafat and Rabin shake hand.
I hate Bush who drops hundreds of bombs onto Bagdad at this time. I still believe other ways were possible to free iraqi children... and first take a little more time to take so important decision and be agree with the rest of the world, world (UN) is "right & responsible too !!", USA can consider it, USA is not the center of the world who decid who are the dictators and how to eliminate them. France has interest in Iraq (it's the only European country who have an oil company in Iraq) and maybe Chirac don't want the war for that, I don't care of him. But 10 states on 15 in European Union and the EU commission doesn't want this war and 75% of the others states of the world too. They are false ? In all case USA governement don't care about that...

Please next time don't vote for this 'BUTSHER', I think he is really dangerous for all the world (including America). He have oil (money money money...) instead of blood (humanity) in his body.

I hope this war will stop and less as possible people died on each side.
Remeber that i like America but not Bush Administration, don't believe I'm anti-american, it's not the case at all.

Thanks (& sorry for my not perfect english)

I hear you loud and clear spurl2.,

Please know that whatever the media says., it isnt true that most of the Americans are for this War. That is American propaganda. OUr president- a so-called religious man- wont even listen to the United Methodist church and the Pope . The United Methodist church-that he belongs to- wrote him that this War was wrong, and he ignored them.

There are so many peace protests going on in America.. 14,000 people were arrested in Los Angeles in one.., there is peace protests in Washington, and in New York.


One young American man was quoted as saying, "We cannot let this War happen in our name!!"

One young American teenager said, "Why now!! why now are they protecting the Iraqi's when they were dying before and noone helped them!!!"

Its like Bush will do whatever he wants- and to hell with what the people want. He is almost like a stubborn- one-track lane dictator.


I will still support our troops- and our allie's troops fighting., as they are following orders, and have to fight. They are sincere and whatever Bush's ulterior reason for this War- at least our troops are there to get rid of Saddams regime.. and they have families who are afraid for them.

I am presently praying heavily for all civilians in Iraq and that part of the Middle East-- for thier protection from any bombings., etc.


I'm also praying for all our troops. I wish I could do something besides pray and give blood.

This is getting boring, I will not comment any further except to point out some things.

1. The protesters in this country, if you add up every protest in every city, they add up to less than 1% of the population. Every poll (including the one on this site) show overwhelming support for this war. Keep your facts straight; do not spout off what you do not know.

2. Two things about the last post. You loved Clinton? The most corrupt President we have ever had outside of Nixon. Do not forget, he was impeached because he lied before congress, and his failures to handle the Cole attack and the African Embassy bombings led to 9-11. Secondly, do not pretend you are a US citizen, your grammar is atrocious, and your syntax is all over the map. What the hell is with the "-" attached to every other word. If I am wrong and you are from the US I bet you attend one of our fine liberal based public schools, I am guessing at the sixth or seventh grade level.

3. I thank you Sylvain for acknowledging that we freed your country, well almost acknowledged, "And if you did it ok it's a very nice thing you done."

Once again I must enlighten you to a few facts you misquoted here, maybe it is your governments fault for this one though. We are a free country there is no censorship of the web here, we can visit any website we want, I regularly visit websites from North Korea, Saudi Arabia, Libya, Iran, Russia, and even France. Needless to say many of these sites are not big fans of the US. As far as television goes there are public access airwaves at most cable stations, anyone, and I mean anyone, can create there own TV shows without censorship, do you have that in France? Here in the US we have numerous choices for our news, from the liberal to the conservative, we foster diversity of opinion, (yes even I love diversity of opinion, you just have to listen to mine too)
Opinions for or against our government can make it on our airwaves, does the rest of the world have that freedom? The war protests in this country get almost as much coverage as the war, why? Because it is important every view be heard, no matter how stupid.

In conclusion, having seen war and conflict numerous times, I hate it and the destruction it brings. But worse then war is the suffering of innocents under demons like Saddam.
G.W. Bush is not the first president to start an unpopular war, he is not the first to have people protest him, and threaten to impeach him, and he is not the first to stand against what is wrong at the cost of political prestige. Abraham Lincoln did the same thing, Abraham stood strong, and in the end he made the US a better place, not perfect by any means, but more free. He paid with his life, we remember him to this day, and many think he was the greatest president in history. Do you remember anyone who protested against his war?

The ultimate judge in this war will be history, I do not believe a president would risk his place in history for oil! As I said before a soldier will not risk his life for oil, I seriously doubt anyone would endanger their place in history for it either.

So, as usual most of the viewpoints against the war have very small legs, they are shallow, with cute slogans and one liners.

Oh and a bonus point, please do not damage your opinions by bringing up the Pope, the Holy See knew about the slaughter of human beings (Jews, gypsies, homosexuals) under Hitler, yet stood by and said nothing against him.

Do they not teach history in school anymore?

In the end this war will be won, with as little death as possible.
Iraq will be a better place, the safety of the world will increase a little, and all the protesters will find a new cause de jour, hey what about gay rights for blind gerbils?

Sorry, I probably went too far this time, but a good debate is always fun, I just wish it could be real-time.

MC

P.S. I am not a raging conservative, I voted for Gore in 2000! I believe in human rights, abortion rights, & protecting the environment. I am also a fiscal conservative, I believe in a strong military and in family values. I guess I am a "Republicrat" or something.

P.S.S. Ok, I am rambling!!!
Sorry, bye bye.

First, don't insult other people personally, particularly about their education.
Next, you can't correctly say that only 1% of people are opposed to the war just because you were told or read that only 1% of the population protests. First of all, people opposed to the war might not participate in protests because they don't feel like being tear-gassed and arrested, for whatever reason. Second of all, 1% is a lot of people when it is 1% of the entire nation.
As for your statement about oil, the fact is, soldiers ARE risking their life for oil, no matter what propaganda the government comes up with.

YES, US spend hundreds (thousands?) billons dollars and life of his soldiers for democracy in Iraq and iraqi people... hu hu hu... what a good joke, BUSH is an hyprocrit...

(PS : i'm not american, read my post)

Everyone seems to agree that Saddam is a brutal and dangerous dictator. Those opposed to the war will say things like, we believe Saddam is dangerous and must go but we don’t agree with military action to meet that end. They have no suggestion as to how to remove him if not by military action.

Perhaps they believe Saddam would respond to being asked politely to stop his ambition to acquire nuclear weapons. Perhaps if everyone were kind to Saddam he would no longer invade countries or threaten the world with his malignant regime. Maybe Saddam would stop paying suicide bombers or openly celebrating terror acts like September the eleventh. Maybe if world leaders sent Saddam beautiful Arabic swords as gifts he would be a more loving person. The answer is obvious that only one option was available to deal with this man unfortunately.

It is incredible the bravery and honor of the forces in the field fighting to remove this dictator. Hail to these brave soldiers.

I support all of the troops (American, British and Australian). However, I do not support Bush or Saddam. I served in Operation Dessert Storm for 9 months. When I came back the Republicans gave me the "cold shoulder."

Ok one more comment, Spurl I said "Two things about the last post" yours was not the last post, its obvious you’re French. Mes excuses pour la confusion.

To "The Russian" I said "The protesters in this country, if you add up every protest in every city, they add up to less than 1% of the population" Notice I said the protesters!!!! That would be the people in the streets. I live in an open society were any new is available to the public, that news says the numbers are roughly 76% in favor of this war, 24% not in favor (give or take which poll you use) Trust me I know that more than 1% oppose this war. But, I live in a democracy, and 76% is a mandate, i.e. majority rules. If a majority of Americans change their minds about this war we can change the President in 20 more months. Also, I do not question anyone's intelligence, I only question the state of education in the world (US included) it seems we forget allot that we should remember.

Finally, I do not mind reading opposing viewpoints, but I will not put up with others demeaning my Country or my President. Have you heard me demean or belittle your countries or your leaders?

I am sick of debating this war, there should be no debate about war it is bad, it is evil, and it is hell.
But sometimes it is your only choice, I stand behind that statement, so does my President and so does my Country.

MC

"With malice toward none; with charity for all: with firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in."

Abraham Lincoln

"But sometimes it is your only choice, " <= why ?
Sorry, this is wrong, why Bush was so urged ? (I'm not sur of this word)
Why do you think it's your only choice when UN, World and inspectors don't think that ? Inspectors want more time because Sadam execute their demand by destructing his own arms. Some month or even years must had been spend, and if Sadam stop to agree with UN demand, then war was the answer.
But UN resolution worked but Bush had been afraid of the evolution of the mind of the states and the world, he don't manage as he believe to convince the world to do his war. Why ? because all the world know why he want this war...
However, Bush power on media and US citizen work, he manage to convince the US population because all the population has interest into this way which permit to control oil production...

I don't remember his name but one of your president (or vice-p) say :
"Oil is so important, that Arab don't have to control it"

And how do you know what god want, it's to easy to say that.

So, i'm not a pacifist or anti-american but objectively other ways was possible but Bush didn't want this and did't (just) listen anybody.

It makes me sick... I simply cant se any difference between what Hitler has done in 1939 and what Bush/Blair are doing now... Shame on both of them and others who are blind enough not to see the truth...