Are people looking for communities? Or Gangs?
Monday, July 28, 2003 by Frogboy | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
There is often a fine line between a "community" and a gang. Some people don't recognize the difference. But there is.
A gang is a self selected group of like minded people who provide unconditional support of one another and consider even relatively minor resistance to their opinions as a great affront that must be attacked.
A gang considers gentle and tolerant behavior between members of the gang but treatment of outsiders can be very nasty, even violent.
The recent melodrama that we saw on the message boards is something that at first looks like just another flamewar. But looking back on it, what we really have is a confusion between what is a community and what is a gang.
For example, in this recent incident, 3 users, Lady Akasha, Apocalypse67 (to a far lesser extent), and Green Armani, were disgruntled by things they saw on the message boards. Specific behaviors that they considered "unfriendly". But how do you define unfriendly behavior? Well, it seems having looked over their posts, unfriendly behavior is any behavior that disagrees with their points of view.
For instance, in one thread which was yet another complaint about the wallpaper section that, like so many, quickly had one side making baseless accusations against the moderators which eventually got me involved. I said essnetially "I don't care about the wallpaper section. I could care less if any more wallpapers were uploaded." The point of my message was that wallpaper authors do not hold a special leverage. The way we run the wallpaper section is "as-is". Polite discussions on changes are welcomed but threats and peole taking their walls and going are not going to work.
Wallpapers on WinCustomize get more downloads than wallpapers on any other site on the Internet. So we feel justified in the way we run the wallpaper section. I.e. we must be doing something right.
But the response to this was anger and 2 people taking their walls and going because of feeling "insulted". WC was clearly not a "friendly" place. We don't show "respect" to people here.
All of these words turn out to be code-words for "agreeing with me unconditionally".
All 3 users went to deviantART and proceeded to not just attack WinCustomize in their journals but personally attack the users here and myself specifically with name-calling and the what-not.
You can see this here:
http://greenarmani.deviantart.com
http://lady-akasha.deviantart.com
http://apocalypse67.deviantart.com
In the Devious comments you can see Lady Akasha and Green Armani saying all kinds of vile things. And yet at the same time, are "disgusted" at the people here and myself in particular. consider that for a moment. I don't recall anyone treating them anywhere nearly as nastily as they are posting over at dA about other people.
In one good example, Green Armani had a problem logging on for some reason. No one had done anything to him. It happens sometimes (not often but it's happened to me too). His first thought was that we had deleted his account for having a differing point of view. He went as far as to imply that the admins of this site are similar to the Nazis and others who would silence dissenters. Except that we had done no such thing. When he managed to log on, several minutes later, no formal apology. Only complaints that he no longer had elite access (which you'll find in every case that these people feel they are entitled to).
But in all of this, the charge is that there is no community here. They're wrong. What we don't encourage here are gangs. Instead, we value honesty, integrity, objectivity, trust, and fairness. These are the cornerstones of a healthy community. But it's not a gang.
Every once in awhile a community site will find gangs form in their midsts. That is, in my opinion, what we just witnessed. Such gangs try to impose their views on others and consider any resistance as something to be crushed. the ultimtate code of the gang is that members of the gang are treated with kindness and those outside the gang are treated with utter ruthlessness.
And from reading their posts both here and elsewhere, the ruthlessness and meaness of their personalities has really shown that they don't understand the difference between a community and a gang.
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Reply #43 Monday, July 28, 2003 10:16 PM
| Oh...you must have clicked on my nick, David70 |
Actually I didn't need to, I already knew it without looking.
Reply #44 Monday, July 28, 2003 10:16 PM
Reply #45 Monday, July 28, 2003 10:22 PM
Reply #46 Monday, July 28, 2003 10:22 PM
There are a few things to bear in mind in any topic lke this:
Regarding "Rudeness"
This charge gets thrown around without any substantiation. I agree I'm "aggressive" in that I'll wade into a discussion. These wallpaper "wars" for lack of a better term were well on their way before I waded into the middle of it.
I wade into such things because I admittedly really enjoy stimulating conversatoin. I don't get "emotional" about it or upset by it because, well I guess I can't help but remember that we're talking about wallpapers. I spend many hours working on skins and themes and objects and such but I never kid myself that this is "important" work. It's for fun. And because of that I don't take it that serious.
Skinning is supposed to be fun, remember? 
Regarding double standards
What I object to strenuously is a double standard in behavior. On the one hand, you have a group of people (and as a side note, I will agree that it's probably unfair to group AP67 as part of the "gang" because he's generally tried to behave with some principle) who are incredibly sensitive to anyone disagreeing with them. On the other hand, they dish out all kinds of nastiness.
If someone wants to point out where I was unfairly "rude" to these people please feel free to point it out.
Regarding "dog piling"
You will always have the majority of a population of a message board side with the home site. After all, that's why they're there. I remember awhile back on Customize.org even though the admins (at the time, different admins now) were saying and doing things that were blatantly wrong, you still had people there staunchly defending them.
It therefore should be no surprise that a group of relative newcomers bashing the site openly might get "piled on" a bit. And even then, it was pretty gentle compared to the things they were saying.
As for Madice, he's a very independent person. He has quite often disagreed with me and said so. But he practices what he preaches -- when he wants there to be change, he uses private email because he knows that real change happens in private, not through public browbeating. Davad, I've known you a long time and you have historically tended to automatically, almost instinctively, assume that those with different views from you are not only wrong but you tend to imply some sort of moral weakness on their part. What you say about Madice is a typical example -- he can't possibly be an independent thinker because he doesn't mirror your views, he must be a lackey of Stardock?
Regarding "community"
Saying that skinners have no say on this site is..well ridiculous. Who exactly do you think runs this site? Me? I mean seriously, who runs WinCustomize? Don't say "Stardock" as if there is some sort of mystical energy being secretly pushing the controls. There are only 3 office personnel from Stardock who regularly visit here -- me, Karmagirl, and T-man. So which of us 3 do you imagine is somehow running this? If you say it's me, then all I can say is, wow, I'm honored. Between developing Galactic Civilizations (visit https://www.galciv.com sometime, you might be amazed that I'm part of a message board community nearly as large as this one), managing Object Desktop, running Stardock, etc. that having some sort of iron grip on WinCustomize is beyond me. So who does run WinCustomize? The volunteer moderators and admins. And who are they? SKINNERS. And where do they get their views from? OTHER SKINNERS. As far as activity, running the site is not relaly involve chatting on message boards, btw. It's moderating skins, news, suggesting site changes, etc. all of these things happen where you don't see it. And it's there that Treetog, Alexandrie, Jafo, Boxxi (just because you don't see him around doesn't mean he's not around), Paxx, DavidK, Koasati, Mormegil, and others help decide things. And they are all skinners and artists.
Reply #47 Monday, July 28, 2003 10:23 PM
[Message Edited]
Reply #48 Monday, July 28, 2003 10:27 PM
David...it is perhaps significant that a person can reach the 'lofty' heights of 'Journeyman' without actually skinning anything [or rather having anything here on this site], but contributes positively over many, many years through interaction on this board, and those of every other skinning site [as I recall].
Being a valued contributor does not necessitate a portfolio of works, skins or otherwise, but rather an on-going interest and involvement with the community[s] as a whole...
Reply #49 Monday, July 28, 2003 10:29 PM
| #47 by China - 7/28/2003 10:23:48 PM It's funny with all your words..You find comfort/satisfaction in bashising a poor little no one like me |
No bashing you dear....just responding to your cracks.
You're not a no one...you're a journeyman like me....a respected member of this "community" (I did look at your profile for that)Reply #50 Monday, July 28, 2003 10:29 PM
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Davad writes: Adni is not around here anymore because he didn't like a lot of things around here, so I don't care if the situation is related to this incident or not. |
This is an interesting observation Davad. Do you realize that you have basically taken the view that if someone leaves it must be the fault of WinCustomize?
Do you know why Adni doesn't visit as much? You are certainly implying that it is due to some failing on the part of Wincustomize. So please, share this with us. I like Adni a great deal. I do think some artists / skin authors were jealous of his popularity. But that is something that will happen anytime you're successful at something.
Please don't play games of implications. Facts make for much better substitutes.
People migrate from site to site all the time. People migrate here from deviantART and people migrate to dA. That grass is greener on the other side of the fence.
Emotional intuition makes for interesting conversation but it doesn't make it true. Submissions and traffic to WinCustomize have contiuously incresed over time. That would imply that the moderators and admins are not "clueless".
Reply #51 Monday, July 28, 2003 10:33 PM
Im happy to be apart of this community whether i disagree or not.
Reply #52 Monday, July 28, 2003 10:34 PM
BTW, both you (Davad) and China are respected members of the skinning community.
I should also point out that over the what? last 4 yeras or so you and I have debated countless times on more subjects that I can remember.
And yet our discussions have always, to my memory anyway, been respectful and rational.
No matter how heated, I can't recall a single time where you have name called me or anyone else for that matter.
Therefore, one can conclude that civilized discussions are quite possible around here amongst people who disagree on a given issue.
So maybe, just maybe the reason why peple liek Green Armoni and Lady Ashaka had such a rough time of it was their behavior towards others. Such as their various in your face posts about how great other sites were compared to WC or their double standards or their melodramatic attitude.
The issue is about respect I think. The problem is that respect is something that is earned and has to be given to be received. Some of those who left felt that they deserved respect but didn't feel they had to treat others with respect in return.
[Message Edited]
Reply #53 Monday, July 28, 2003 10:35 PM
[Message Edited]
Reply #54 Monday, July 28, 2003 10:41 PM
Yeah, That's me!Reply #55 Monday, July 28, 2003 10:42 PM
| Being a valued contributor does not necessitate a portfolio of works, skins or otherwise, but rather an on-going interest and involvement with the community[s] as a whole |
Let's not get into that again. I came to my senses regarding that a long time ago. I know that socializing on message boards is indeed making a contribution.
Reply #56 Monday, July 28, 2003 10:43 PM
Oh, Now I'm a journeyman that's never contributed anyting but smartass remarks.
Yeah, That's me!
WOOF! don't stop now
Reply #57 Monday, July 28, 2003 10:44 PM
| So maybe, just maybe the reason why peple liek Green Armoni and Lady Ashaka had such a rough time of it was their behavior towards others. Such as their various in your face posts about how great other sites were compared to WC or their double standards or their melodramatic attitude. |
I dunno why they reacted the way they did. Maybe they thought it was accpetable to act that way based on seeing other peoples hostile, in your face behavior around here.
Reply #58 Monday, July 28, 2003 10:45 PM
SuperheroCanadian snaps his fingers
Reply #59 Monday, July 28, 2003 10:45 PM
First and foremost, yes I do owe Frogboy/Brad an apology, it was indeed childish on my part. I was extremely angry that night, and I said that which I knew better than to do. But in addition to Frogboy, I also owe Green Armani an apology and I hope he accepts it, because I called Brad a name on his page, and that wasn't fair of me. Brad, in that respect yes, I do owe you an apology I shouldn't have called you that, it was indeed chidish.
Now the 'gangs' thing, I'm sorry that's hilarious. Gangs, eh? First of all, I also feel bad for poor Apocalypse, because in all fairness he shouldn't be branded because I ran my mouth. That isn't fair to him, I've never seen Apocalypse be anything other than a gentleman, and kind to ANYONE. And most of you who've known him darn well know that A_67 is very nice! >
Be fair, you know that's true! Don't keep dragging his or Armani's name into what I've said.Brad/Frogboy, on my page at Da you eluded to the fact that I am pretty good at name calling and insulting, very well...you had right to be peeved over me calling you Frogbutt. Again I repeat yeah that was childish to say that in anger. We've all said and done things in anger we're not that proud of. Furthermore you eluded to me being the type to, oh forget it, I'll just quote you verbatim: "And when you refer to "friendly" supportive community atmospheres, what you really seem to mean are atmospheres where everyone agrees with you and sends insults and flames towards those who disagree with you." Now, that is not quite so true! If I had been REPEATEDLY on these boards 'flaming' then I could understand such a statement. HOWEVER that is NOT the truth. Have I really been 'flaming' made before? NOPE? I've always tried to be nice, and for the most part (we all have slipped) I've been perty darn nice to everyone, I think. So labeling me as such, as a personality/character type because of this thread, with NO other priors resembling is a bit extreme! I am not denying that I got 'flaming' angry. Indeed I did!
And YOU Brad instigated it! I was going to post too like many other did, with intent on voicing my opinion but after reading your post, wich was UTTERLY RUDE and UNETHICAL!
Quote: "Are we clear: We don't care if you guys submit wallpapers. Feel free to never ever submit anothre wallpaper ever again." So tell me what kind of reaction do you think your going to get from someone that makes wallpapers and is working towards being a skinner, but currently only does walls??? What do you think they are going to feel like? On my page you said you didn't insult anyone you just stated you don't care for walls. Was that how it really went down, I think not! And I'm rude???? What about YOU? Yes, I WAS DAMN RUDE! In attack by YOUR UTTERLY RUDE Statement!!! Stating you don't care for walls is one thing, but that is not quite what you did. And it's funny you are labeling me....well what about you? Can't you say things nicely? I can understand had you said, "You know...this darn wall section is a constant problem. Personally, I don't care for the section,and it's squabbles make me want to chuck it, but we need to figure something out here" a flaming blowout could have been avoided. Could I have chosen my words better. YES! I was mad as hell, and I went with that, but could you have chosen your words better? YES YES YES! Taking my stuff is childish? What would someone who makes walls do, after reading your post?????? For someone who exclusively makes walls for the time being, that has some dignity? I took my walls and got full blown angry because of YOU the way YOU expressed yourself. And I know that some of you read that too, and thought "Ouch...that's harsh!" And Fuzzy Logic was right there to make another harsh statement about wallpaper makers later on, amongst others! There was fuel to fuel on ALL sides!
I am NOT a person that considers myself, this 'artiste' that is so good or full of myself AT ALL! Again those that know me know I'm very humbled for the most part. Anyone that's emailed me for help or anything I've glady done it! Made tutorials for people, offered my scenes, whatever.I've never been full blown mean ever before, not like this! I'm just trying to learn and get good, so there's not "I'm such an arrrrteeessst, ego here, got it! I HAVE NOT been a constant problem around here and starting trouble every other day. So there isn't a long history with me being a rebel rouser or whatever you want to call it! Those that know me, know I am actually a very nice person! Sometimes a bit naive, but I'm not all that bad! You want my to not be a hypocrit, and be fair,honest, and talk about my behaviour. At least I can see where I falter, and even apologize if it calls for it!
I NEVER thought the admins are servants or whatever you said, and I understand it was due to my poor analogy, which I tried to clarify and say that isn't what I meant!There are admins that should be commended for, Boxxi and Jafo for instance! But you talk about my childishness there is plenty of it on these boards without ME! The constant picking,making fun, and the manner in which those not within the 'clique' is awful!Be fair at least! It can't possibly be all me! Starting with Mad Ice, for one there are others--then the little followers jump right in and the next thing, someone is being made a joke of or their question/statement whatever the case was. NO I was never the brunt of a joke, but I've read them and sat here thinking, "What do they get out of this. This is just horrible!" For someone to get full blown mad, there had to be something there? Someone that DOES NOT have a long history of getting flaming angry on these boards! Which I DO NOT!
Again, I will apologize for the frogbutt comment. I have no qualms with doing so, I was wrong there. I have no qualms admitting I blundered my analogy the other day too, I NEVER thought the admins to be servants or anything of the like. Their volunteered time is comendable. But it is also a responsibility they chose to take on, let's remember that too, and when taking such a responsiblity they should also be the example setters!
Some are, but some ARE NOT! You said I'm a hypocrit...maybe in this past weekend I've been one, but at least be fair...YOU are too!
Reply #60 Monday, July 28, 2003 10:46 PM
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Reply #41 Monday, July 28, 2003 10:11 PM
Just think this all began with Frogboy making a basic comment “I don’t care if we have a wallpaper section” …. It was really just a harmless post, he never said he was doing away with it just that he didn’t care about it…maybe the lets be clear stuff got a few people wrinkled… It is like the guy is going to need speechwriters like the president to go over every word making sure there is no loaded terms or anything that can be remotely construed as offensive I mean give the guy a break oh woe, woe, woe.
We think the problem stems from cross-pollination via "users" becoming subscribers/customers and then they feel a certain inherent right to complain more than if they hadn't purchased anything. Wellllll, hells bells this might be all well and good but "the customer is NOT always right" and the day Brad charges 700 bux for Stardock merchandise is the day I *might* take issue with not being treated like royalty (insert sarcastic smirk).
Remember sumpin' would ya?
1). Nobody asked you to post your stuff here
2). Nobody EXPECTS you to post your stuff here
3). Wanna have sumpin' ALWAYS get IN? Then skin!
4). Is it really FAIR to every SKINNER out there that some chump can mass_upload work that doesn't take as much time as skinning via WB/Icons/Cursors.... TRY your hand at making a curosr...TRY making a WB skin...TRY making an icon set...etc. and then bitch cuz your wall didn't make it on a SKINNING SITE? ahhhhhhh!
Hmm. Let's not lose sight that this SITE gives more than it recieves for the most part.
We give up we quit we are taking our work elsewhere...NOT!