Are people looking for communities? Or Gangs?
Monday, July 28, 2003 by Frogboy | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
There is often a fine line between a "community" and a gang. Some people don't recognize the difference. But there is.
A gang is a self selected group of like minded people who provide unconditional support of one another and consider even relatively minor resistance to their opinions as a great affront that must be attacked.
A gang considers gentle and tolerant behavior between members of the gang but treatment of outsiders can be very nasty, even violent.
The recent melodrama that we saw on the message boards is something that at first looks like just another flamewar. But looking back on it, what we really have is a confusion between what is a community and what is a gang.
For example, in this recent incident, 3 users, Lady Akasha, Apocalypse67 (to a far lesser extent), and Green Armani, were disgruntled by things they saw on the message boards. Specific behaviors that they considered "unfriendly". But how do you define unfriendly behavior? Well, it seems having looked over their posts, unfriendly behavior is any behavior that disagrees with their points of view.
For instance, in one thread which was yet another complaint about the wallpaper section that, like so many, quickly had one side making baseless accusations against the moderators which eventually got me involved. I said essnetially "I don't care about the wallpaper section. I could care less if any more wallpapers were uploaded." The point of my message was that wallpaper authors do not hold a special leverage. The way we run the wallpaper section is "as-is". Polite discussions on changes are welcomed but threats and peole taking their walls and going are not going to work.
Wallpapers on WinCustomize get more downloads than wallpapers on any other site on the Internet. So we feel justified in the way we run the wallpaper section. I.e. we must be doing something right.
But the response to this was anger and 2 people taking their walls and going because of feeling "insulted". WC was clearly not a "friendly" place. We don't show "respect" to people here.
All of these words turn out to be code-words for "agreeing with me unconditionally".
All 3 users went to deviantART and proceeded to not just attack WinCustomize in their journals but personally attack the users here and myself specifically with name-calling and the what-not.
You can see this here:
http://greenarmani.deviantart.com
http://lady-akasha.deviantart.com
http://apocalypse67.deviantart.com
In the Devious comments you can see Lady Akasha and Green Armani saying all kinds of vile things. And yet at the same time, are "disgusted" at the people here and myself in particular. consider that for a moment. I don't recall anyone treating them anywhere nearly as nastily as they are posting over at dA about other people.
In one good example, Green Armani had a problem logging on for some reason. No one had done anything to him. It happens sometimes (not often but it's happened to me too). His first thought was that we had deleted his account for having a differing point of view. He went as far as to imply that the admins of this site are similar to the Nazis and others who would silence dissenters. Except that we had done no such thing. When he managed to log on, several minutes later, no formal apology. Only complaints that he no longer had elite access (which you'll find in every case that these people feel they are entitled to).
But in all of this, the charge is that there is no community here. They're wrong. What we don't encourage here are gangs. Instead, we value honesty, integrity, objectivity, trust, and fairness. These are the cornerstones of a healthy community. But it's not a gang.
Every once in awhile a community site will find gangs form in their midsts. That is, in my opinion, what we just witnessed. Such gangs try to impose their views on others and consider any resistance as something to be crushed. the ultimtate code of the gang is that members of the gang are treated with kindness and those outside the gang are treated with utter ruthlessness.
And from reading their posts both here and elsewhere, the ruthlessness and meaness of their personalities has really shown that they don't understand the difference between a community and a gang.
Reply #22 Monday, July 28, 2003 7:00 PM
begets negativity
begets negativity
begets negativity
are we learning something here?
maybe?
please?
Reply #23 Monday, July 28, 2003 7:04 PM
Reply #24 Monday, July 28, 2003 7:47 PM
Reply #26 Monday, July 28, 2003 8:03 PM
| 25 by Jafo - 7/28/2003 7:49:26 PM Et tu, Brute? |
No jafo this wasn’t meant as an act of treachery, I am indeed a friend and ally.
Reply #27 Monday, July 28, 2003 8:15 PM
I'm not saying that Frogboy didn't have the right to mention them by name, but it does have potential to add fuel to the fire
MessBuu,
Frogboy did nothing wrong in showing evidence that was contrary to the opinion’s of aforementioned disgruntled artists…Especially since they were the very ones thumping their chests about DeviantArt and there departure to a supposedly “better” place so they MUST have expected that SOMEONE was going to catch wind of what they were saying about WC and Frogboy too.
Oh but because we say this will we be deemed sucks ups or the latest brown nosers? Whatever

Did we see Frogboy result to name calling tactics? Nope. Did we see Frogboy post HIS website at DeviantART? No, he’s a dang MEMBER there too!
His point was right on the money and frankly GANG-tactics won’t EVER help ANY community for how can it GROW if it’s always US and THEM?
If you read between the lines…you’d almost conclusively assume/think they were the only good artists on WC and that’s a punch in the eye to many good artists who ARE here on this site still.
If the worst Frogboy can say is “I don’t care about the wallpaper section” (sorry that is not a verbatim quote)…well, so what? Is he the only one here who can’t have his own opinion? And has the wallpaper section bit the dust despite the fact he’s felt that way for a LONG time? No.
Now everyone chill and have some ice-cream…it’s on us!

Reply #28 Monday, July 28, 2003 8:46 PM

Reply #29 Monday, July 28, 2003 8:54 PM
e-bros...it's winter here in Oz...Ice-cream ain't too thrillin' when it's cold....now if you'd said 'mulled wine'....
Mulled wine with a cinnamon stick garnish it is

Reply #30 Monday, July 28, 2003 9:23 PM
| There is often a fine line between a "community" and a gang. Some people don't recognize the difference. But there is.A gang is a self selected group of like minded people who provide unconditional support of one another and consider even relatively minor resistance to their opinions as a great affront that must be attacked. |
I couldn't agree more. Too many times I have seen where someone posts a question about why things are the way they are and some people just pile on with the rude comments and accusations and then more people pile on and from there the real issue is lost in the fray. I had posed the question "Is this the way it is supposed to be?" MadIce responded and said that was pretty much it. Maybe that's true. I've only been here for a short while and never really got on messageboards before except for small tight knit art communities. Those were very different. The closest similarity I've seen is some of the Yahoo messsage boards where people are really vile to others. But they are not involved in a common endeavor. Those boards are usually about politics or religion or some other volatile issue.
But I digress.
I wonder how much of the real issue was lost and whether there could have resolution before the fast slide into anarchy.
I realize there is a wide variety of ages here and after raising 3 kids (still working on the youngest) I know young people are quick to jump on the bandwagon, as it were, and that probably contributes to the piling on. Young people (and sometimes old alike) want to be noticed and being 'cute' or 'witty aka rude' seems to be the favored modus operandi.
Anyway ... my hopes ... WC becomes a little more civil. To me, a family place is not just about not cursing or using foul language, but also about behaviour, tolerance, and patience.
Reply #31 Monday, July 28, 2003 9:24 PM
Brad, as well elaborated as this thread is, I think the title stretches a little beyond reality. I don’t think the issues in debate or the way they have been discussed are motives to brand us or any group of people for that matter, as a ‘GANG’. I don’t think it would be fair that someone will come here and call everyone here a ‘gang’ just because a common interest is shared. Just the way I don’t think it would be fair that anyone would come here and call the group of moderators a ‘gang’ just because they share a task and they uphold a job that others might find unfair to their submitted work.
I don’t know about anyone else, people have different opinions and express them selves in their own unique way, but I have never touch any issue in regards to the community. I KNOW what a community is. I also have not display any type of ‘disgruntle’ because people don’t share my point of view. I do have indeed agreed with some of the issues regarding the recent change of policy on wall moderation. And I have indeed agree with the fact that some [not all] members of staff have acted very rude and unprofessional when confronted or dealing with certain issues. I mean, you would think that they would set up an example since they are the ones in a way assigned to help conduct the site. But maybe it’s just me that sees these things.
In all the time I have been here in WC, I have yet to display any type of disorder behavior. I have commented on the message board when there is really something I can collaborate. I have abided by the rules and policy of the site.
Also, there is not one moderator here that can say that I have bashed them for any reason, nor they have ever received any email from me in discontent for not accepting any of my designs. The day that one of my designs was not accepted, I went to Geocities and created a personal page to upload the work that didn’t pass moderation here.
I left this site for the things that I mentioned and a few others that I rather keep to my self. But I left and removed my work because I so choused, and I don’t owe any explanation for my actions. If you were to for whatever reasons take your work and move it someplace else, you don’t have to give anyone any kind of explanation. But I removed my designs from here and all of the sudden I’m childish, I’m running away from the problems or I’m a gang member.
On one of the posts you stated that I think of WC a servant of mine and that this site serves as a slave. When in fact I never mentioned anything like that. I consider that to be a false accusation, and after I cleared that out no one apologize to me. But if I would be the one making that accusation, most likely I would be exile or removed. So I think the double standard issue applies to everyone involved. Including you Brad.
And while is true that I wont get the amount of downloads in any other site as I did here at WC, hell, I probably wont get 10 downloads a week, but I don’t make designs to collect downloads. I get no type of monetary compensation for downloads. I share my designs simply because I love to make them and I like people to enjoy them. So 10 downloads a week and a few comments about how a couple of persons like my designs its good enough for me.
[Message Edited]
Reply #32 Monday, July 28, 2003 9:38 PM
The gang mentality has always been a two way street here. I don't agree with much of what the three aforementioned individuals did/said in those threads over the weekend, but I would not liken their actions to "gang" mentality any more than the group of people here that regularly jump all over people for disagreeing with the management/ownership of this site.
Brad, at times you can be very rude and aggressive to people who disagree with the way the site is run. Since you're more of a techie than an artist you should take time to think about how all these artiste types are going to react when you tell them that you don't give a crap about the wallpaper section. These people are obviously going to react with hostility. They are very emotional people.
I've long complained about what I called the dog pile mentality on this message board. People aren't really allowed to disagree here. If they do they are either ridiculed or trounced by several people who had no involvement.
I'll always be grateful to Madice for helping me when I first started skinning, but now it seems he patrols the message board sniffing around for wounded animals to jump on and devour. Look at how he attacked Zodiaq last week. And he's on Stardock's payroll isn't he? I won't go so far as to call him a dog like Zodiaq did, but at times a leash might be in order.
As far as this gang/community comparison...when will people understand this site has never been and never will be a true community. Users/skinners have very little input about how the site is run. They are routinely asked for their opinions, but very rarely does anything ever come of it. I have a lot of respect for most of the few admins here who are actually active, but the majority of the admins are nowhere to be found. Treetog, Alexandrie, Mormegil, and MikeB are too bu$y to contribute a whole lot (I don't blame them, but it's a fact). I don't even know who the heck Bagginz, Dark Star, and Flyin are. Stardock employees I assume? Boxxi is rarely around anymore, so that leaves davidk, koasati, paxx, and jafo to basically run the show. It's at least nice that the four real leaders here are about the only ones who aren't on SD payroll or do contract/sub contract work for SD.
I'm rambling now so I'll leave...just know that in my mind....you (Brad) calling out people for gang mentality is like the pot calling the kettle black.
Adios~
Reply #33 Monday, July 28, 2003 9:40 PM
keep it short and smart guys...I can't stand reading long BS crap that can't hold my attention.
[Message Edited]
Reply #34 Monday, July 28, 2003 9:43 PM
Reply #35 Monday, July 28, 2003 9:51 PM
Go, leave,...Never come back!
[Message Edited]
Reply #36 Monday, July 28, 2003 9:56 PM
davad70...it's simply BECAUSE we [the ones you mentioned] are not on Stardock's payroll that you will find us here. Stardock maintains a 'back seat', leaving the administration of the site to fellow community members....skinners....just as it 'should' be...
Reasons for some others' reticence towards frequenting Wincustomize.com more than they presently do is more an indictment on the treatment they receive while here in their respective roles as admin/moderator.
People 'burn out' after constant undermining of their self-worth by miscreants hell-bent on disruption and little else....and seek breathing space. Sounds 'extreme' but essentially that's what happens.
I've had over 25 years as a volunteer Motor Race Official to season me to the disdain shown towards those willing to give up some of their time to help something which would cease to exist without someone doing it FOR 'them, the great public'.....which is why I 'survive'...
[Must find that link....a real laugh...if I can find it]...
Reply #37 Monday, July 28, 2003 9:56 PM
Reply #38 Monday, July 28, 2003 9:59 PM

Reply #39 Monday, July 28, 2003 10:06 PM
| Blah...stop waving Adni around! He's gone because he choose to be. Did he remove his stuff? No! Go, leave,...Never come back! |
I didn't say it wasn't his choice did I? Yes, he left his skins here. It appears someone took yours down though....oh my bad, you've never contributed anything but smart remarks.
| Oh, and please don't include or exemplify others whose reasons for coming/going/or whatever may or may not be a suitable parallel... |
Adni is not around here anymore because he didn't like a lot of things around here, so I don't care if the situation is related to this incident or not.
Reply #40 Monday, July 28, 2003 10:10 PM
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Reply #21 Monday, July 28, 2003 6:43 PM