Are people looking for communities? Or Gangs?

Monday, July 28, 2003 by Frogboy | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk

There is often a fine line between a "community" and a gang. Some people don't recognize the difference. But there is.

A gang is a self selected group of like minded people who provide unconditional support of one another and consider even relatively minor resistance to their opinions as a great affront that must be attacked.

A gang considers gentle and tolerant behavior between members of the gang but treatment of outsiders can be very nasty, even violent.

The recent melodrama that we saw on the message boards is something that at first looks like just another flamewar.  But looking back on it, what we really have is a confusion between what is a community and what is a gang.

For example, in this recent incident, 3 users, Lady Akasha, Apocalypse67 (to a far lesser extent), and Green Armani, were disgruntled by things they saw on the message boards. Specific behaviors that they considered "unfriendly". But how do you define unfriendly behavior? Well, it seems having looked over their posts, unfriendly behavior is any behavior that disagrees with their points of view.

For instance, in one thread which was yet another complaint about the wallpaper section that, like so many, quickly had one side making baseless accusations against the moderators which eventually got me involved. I said essnetially "I don't care about the wallpaper section. I could care less if any more wallpapers were uploaded." The point of my message was that wallpaper authors do not hold a special leverage. The way we run the wallpaper section is "as-is". Polite discussions on changes are welcomed but threats and peole taking their walls and going are not going to work.

Wallpapers on WinCustomize get more downloads than wallpapers on any other site on the Internet. So we feel justified in the way we run the wallpaper section. I.e. we must be doing something right.

But the response to this was anger and 2 people taking their walls and going because of feeling "insulted". WC was clearly not a "friendly" place.  We don't show "respect" to people here.

All of these words turn out to be code-words for "agreeing with me unconditionally".

All 3 users went to deviantART and proceeded to not just attack WinCustomize in their journals but personally attack the users here and myself specifically with name-calling and the what-not. 

You can see this here:
http://greenarmani.deviantart.com
http://lady-akasha.deviantart.com
http://apocalypse67.deviantart.com

In the Devious comments you can see Lady Akasha and Green Armani saying all kinds of vile things. And yet at the same time, are "disgusted" at the people here and myself in particular. consider that for a moment. I don't recall anyone treating them anywhere nearly as nastily as they are posting over at dA about other people.

In one good example, Green Armani had a problem logging on for some reason. No one had done anything to him. It happens sometimes (not often but it's happened to me too). His first thought was that we had deleted his account for having a differing point of view. He went as far as to imply that the admins of this site are similar to the Nazis and others who would silence dissenters. Except that we had done no such thing. When he managed to log on, several minutes later, no formal apology. Only complaints that he no longer had elite access (which you'll find in every case that these people feel they are entitled to).

But in all of this, the charge is that there is no community here. They're wrong. What we don't encourage here are gangs.  Instead, we value honesty, integrity, objectivity, trust, and fairness. These are the cornerstones of a healthy community. But it's not a gang.

Every once in awhile a community site will find gangs form in their midsts. That is, in my opinion, what we just witnessed.  Such gangs try to impose their views on others and consider any resistance as something to be crushed. the ultimtate code of the gang is that members of the gang are treated with kindness and those outside the gang are treated with utter ruthlessness.

And from reading their posts both here and elsewhere, the ruthlessness and meaness of their personalities has really shown that they don't understand the difference between a community and a gang.

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@shu
Reply #121 Thursday, July 31, 2003 7:31 AM
Can four months bring such change in a community? When I took a sabbatical, this was one of the best (THE BEST, rather) skinning sites on the net and I felt at home at it. Now, when I return, I find that the entire fabric of the community has torn revealing the uglier side of people...

For the record, I have found most (99%, in fact, if I could put in a number) WCzens helpful and kind. I never felt that kindness, manners and the sense of brotherhood (or sisterhood) found on this site was a show...

In fact, my growth (if any) as a wallpaper artist (I know, its not much, but I love the stuff that I do) has been nurtured by the members of this site. WOM was the first one ever to offer me a comment and a piece of advice. Bryceboy (a.k.a. JamMeister) was and still is a good friend. Lady Akasha helped me to create the logons. And I share a good rapport (and a healthy sense of competition) with A_67 and G_A. As for the admins, Jafo has been a constant fountainhead of opinions and suggestions and has been very helpful. Same goes for Frogboy (though I have had just 3 interactions with him till date, he seemed to me like quite a helpful person). And KG too.

Then what is this fight all about? Even when there was this deeply political and dividing issue of the 'war on Iraq' being discussed on the messageboard, there was not as much vitriol... There was always an undercurrent of respect of the other person's POV on the matter. Tell me guys, what changed in four months??? >
WOM
Reply #122 Thursday, July 31, 2003 7:42 AM
@shu, Thank you my friend for the kind words. As to your question, I can't answer it. You will just have to spend a few hours and read the threads and come up with an answer for yourself. Sorry. And again, welcome back.



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@shu
Reply #123 Thursday, July 31, 2003 9:04 AM
I tried WOM, I mean going through the entire message board. And yes, I did read the statements that Lady Akasha, A_67, G_A and FrogBoy made. But what I want to know, is why did such a situation arise that they had to lower their standards and come to mud - slinging??? What went wrong? Is this a disease that is fast spreading across this board?

The other day too, I was reading comments posted by some members on the walls, cursors etc. and was disgusted by the lack of respect for the time the artist took to create that piece and his/her readiness to share the same with the other members of the site. What happened to the art of 'constructive criticism' or am I flogging a dead horse?
WOM
Reply #124 Thursday, July 31, 2003 9:18 AM
@shu, idiotic comments seem to go in cycles by 1 or 2 new people. The other seems to happen every 3-4 months, but this time it got somewhat out of hand. Who knows!



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Bangkokboy
Reply #125 Friday, August 1, 2003 1:12 PM
jafo - maybe it's because i'm older, but i've got bite marks all over the hand that i normally extend in friendship. they're marks of honor, not the emblems of a fool.
Doomgaze
Reply #126 Friday, August 1, 2003 2:19 PM
I'll probably get flamed for this, (famous last words) but, just how mature was it in the first place for Frogboy to post this publicly on Wincustomize when it could have been handled privately between the people who left and Frogboy himself?

People keep on talking about things being handled privately, this itself should have been one of those things.

Honestly, it would have been fine just keeping to the "gangs or communities" argument, but did direct links to people making comments and turning the thread into a personal vendetta against them have to happen? Or was this thread an open invite attack knowing that WC users would probably go and flame them in support of Stardock?

Please don't take this as me attacking anyone, it honestly isn't, its just an observation and I very well could be wrong in the origional intent of the post itself and am reading too much into it, but someone has to bring up all sides of it don't they?

And I apologize for not getting you links to the lack of help Brad, I'll hit that up if I have time later...

(disclaimer: I do NOT support any parties here or their arguments of either side, this was meant to give people something to think about and come to their own conclusions on a thought process about this whole thing.)
bakerstreet
Reply #127 Friday, August 1, 2003 10:37 PM
*changes channel*
*re-run*
*sigh*
*changes channel*



Sugaree
Reply #128 Friday, August 1, 2003 11:26 PM
HI BStreet!

Good to see you here..again
stay awhile.



[Message Edited]
craeonics
Reply #129 Saturday, August 2, 2003 7:09 AM
Aha! Knew you couldn't stay away.
Frogboy
Reply #130 Saturday, August 2, 2003 2:05 PM
You know, the funny thing about Bakerstreet and I is that we have debated very harshly in the past yet we share almost identical views on...well almost everything.

I've lurked and read some of the things Bakerstreet has written and thought "I wonder if anyone thinks *I* am Bakerstreet." Yet we've had these really big debates too.



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jebland
Reply #131 Saturday, August 2, 2003 2:57 PM
I miss Bakerstreet. He has a "way with words" that is quite entertaining.
werewolf
Reply #132 Sunday, August 3, 2003 7:50 AM
agreed....I would have loved to see some of his sartorial quips in some of the recent threads



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jcg
Reply #133 Sunday, August 3, 2003 9:22 AM
agreed....I would have loved to see some of his sartorial quips in some of the recent threads


He makes fashion statements? How does he know what I'm wearing? I'm getting very paranoid here....
werewolf
Reply #134 Sunday, August 3, 2003 9:43 AM
bakerstreet is a fashion statement



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Fuzzy Logic
Reply #135 Sunday, August 3, 2003 9:51 AM
bakerstreet is annoying - the more you read what he says the more you find yourself agreeing with him.

Come back soon, your absence leaves a big hole in this messageboard.

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