Are people looking for communities? Or Gangs?
Monday, July 28, 2003 by Frogboy | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
There is often a fine line between a "community" and a gang. Some people don't recognize the difference. But there is.
A gang is a self selected group of like minded people who provide unconditional support of one another and consider even relatively minor resistance to their opinions as a great affront that must be attacked.
A gang considers gentle and tolerant behavior between members of the gang but treatment of outsiders can be very nasty, even violent.
The recent melodrama that we saw on the message boards is something that at first looks like just another flamewar. But looking back on it, what we really have is a confusion between what is a community and what is a gang.
For example, in this recent incident, 3 users, Lady Akasha, Apocalypse67 (to a far lesser extent), and Green Armani, were disgruntled by things they saw on the message boards. Specific behaviors that they considered "unfriendly". But how do you define unfriendly behavior? Well, it seems having looked over their posts, unfriendly behavior is any behavior that disagrees with their points of view.
For instance, in one thread which was yet another complaint about the wallpaper section that, like so many, quickly had one side making baseless accusations against the moderators which eventually got me involved. I said essnetially "I don't care about the wallpaper section. I could care less if any more wallpapers were uploaded." The point of my message was that wallpaper authors do not hold a special leverage. The way we run the wallpaper section is "as-is". Polite discussions on changes are welcomed but threats and peole taking their walls and going are not going to work.
Wallpapers on WinCustomize get more downloads than wallpapers on any other site on the Internet. So we feel justified in the way we run the wallpaper section. I.e. we must be doing something right.
But the response to this was anger and 2 people taking their walls and going because of feeling "insulted". WC was clearly not a "friendly" place. We don't show "respect" to people here.
All of these words turn out to be code-words for "agreeing with me unconditionally".
All 3 users went to deviantART and proceeded to not just attack WinCustomize in their journals but personally attack the users here and myself specifically with name-calling and the what-not.
You can see this here:
http://greenarmani.deviantart.com
http://lady-akasha.deviantart.com
http://apocalypse67.deviantart.com
In the Devious comments you can see Lady Akasha and Green Armani saying all kinds of vile things. And yet at the same time, are "disgusted" at the people here and myself in particular. consider that for a moment. I don't recall anyone treating them anywhere nearly as nastily as they are posting over at dA about other people.
In one good example, Green Armani had a problem logging on for some reason. No one had done anything to him. It happens sometimes (not often but it's happened to me too). His first thought was that we had deleted his account for having a differing point of view. He went as far as to imply that the admins of this site are similar to the Nazis and others who would silence dissenters. Except that we had done no such thing. When he managed to log on, several minutes later, no formal apology. Only complaints that he no longer had elite access (which you'll find in every case that these people feel they are entitled to).
But in all of this, the charge is that there is no community here. They're wrong. What we don't encourage here are gangs. Instead, we value honesty, integrity, objectivity, trust, and fairness. These are the cornerstones of a healthy community. But it's not a gang.
Every once in awhile a community site will find gangs form in their midsts. That is, in my opinion, what we just witnessed. Such gangs try to impose their views on others and consider any resistance as something to be crushed. the ultimtate code of the gang is that members of the gang are treated with kindness and those outside the gang are treated with utter ruthlessness.
And from reading their posts both here and elsewhere, the ruthlessness and meaness of their personalities has really shown that they don't understand the difference between a community and a gang.
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Reply #62 Monday, July 28, 2003 10:49 PM
| Oh, Now I'm a journeyman that's never contributed anyting but smartass remarks. |
I NEVER said smartass!!! I said smart! Smart as intelligent and witty.
Reply #63 Monday, July 28, 2003 10:57 PM
David madly back-pedals furiously to avoid the icy wrath of an irate China....
Good luck, my friend....might I suggest maintaining a tight grip upon your short and curlies before they are....no more.....
Reply #64 Monday, July 28, 2003 10:59 PM
| David....I know you know...but others might not know, you know?.... |
You know, you really lost me there jafo...you know?
Reply #65 Monday, July 28, 2003 11:00 PM
Lady A, Stop taking stuff to heart. Come-on, put your pretty wallpapers back up here. You know you wanna [Message Edited]
Reply #66 Monday, July 28, 2003 11:01 PM
| #63 by Jafo - 7/28/2003 10:57:23 PM David madly back-pedals furiously to avoid the icy wrath of an irate China.... |
Just stating the facts...for once.
Reply #67 Monday, July 28, 2003 11:02 PM
Reply #68 Monday, July 28, 2003 11:05 PM
Akasha, first let me say that anyone who types as long as you do is someone I can relate to!
Now with regards to my statement about the wallpaper section, the context of my statement is important. This was in response to the gazillionth person complaining about wallpaper moderation. No other section on the site generates as much angst as the wallpaper section.
And in fact, in one of the previous gazillionth posts on this I have said "The wallpaper section is a pain in the butt and its posts like these that make me wish we'd chuck it" (so to speak). this particular time I didn't preface it with that.
It was not my intention to insult artists of any kind. I don't personally see it as an insult to artists. It was a statement that the wallpaper gallery here is not a high priority to the site and hence we don't feel that it merits the kind of angst management that it generates and as a result I really wouldn't mind if people didn't submit stuff to it. That remains my personal opinion on the matter. I don't see how this is rude. Having an opinion, a strong opinion, is not the same as being rude.
I do agree with you that written communication is often difficult. It is hard to communicate motives and intentions via this means. So consider this -- just as you feel your words have been misinterpreted, do you not think that maybe, just maybe you misread my motives and intentions?
And in addition, what really escalated the issue was not your removal of your wallpapers but rather your posts celebrating how much better deviantART is -- ON OUR OWN MESSAGE BOARD.
We are just volunteers here trying our best to help a community that often has vocal members who seem like they are on a mission to suck all the enjoyment out of our efforts here. We're not paid to be here. Even though I work for Stardock, I am not paid to work on WinCustomize (it's 2AM on a Monday as I write this). We take a lot of abuse for our efforts and get little in appreciation for the time and energy we put in. So you might see how ripping on our website on our own forum might make us cranky.
In addition, with regards to the wallpaper, as I said in another post, emotional intuition is no substitute for facts. Emperically speaking, WinCustomize's wallpaper section is the world's most popular per wallpaper section on earth. That is not due to accident or luck. It is becaues of the moderation of it. And as with any system, it has its pros and cons. But we believe the emperical results speak for themselves.
But none of this addresses the central issue: Respect. You want respect and you want artists to have respect. I believe that in deeds we give an immenes amount of respect to artists and skinners. You can see their names listed in tpo lists on the right as well as top lists for individual sections if you click on the title there on the right. That's quite a bit of respect and celebration of their accomlishments. But in terms of respect on the message board, respect has to be given to be received. When I waded into the latest wallpaper war, what I saw was a bunch of seemingly ungrateful people who had in other threads made attacks on moderators and their motives. That is highly disrespectful and such disrespectful behavior is not likely to result in respectful treatment in return.
I appreciate your apology about calling me names. I do have strong opinons and strong opinions do offend people who have strong opinions of a different viewpoint. But I do not equate strong opinions with rudeness. After all, if my strong opinion had been in congruence with yours (i.e. if I had instead said "Every wallpaper is abslutely precious!") you would not have found that to be rude I suspect. Hence, at worst, I lack tact.
Reply #69 Monday, July 28, 2003 11:35 PM
I'm a writer as well what do you expect? Plus we 'artiste's' are quite passionate. This time will be quick as Akasha needs beauty sleep 
I 'get' your point on the DA post I made... why did I do that? What did fuzzy logic (I think that's whats who it was) say? Quite eager to add that fuel! That was pure fuel on a burning fire! I was LIVID! And again, I stress my past behavior is my only backup--it's not like I rant on here all the time or anything of the like! It actually takes A LOT to get me this angry! I have shown 'respect' for most of my stay here, and I think if people want to be fair, they will agree to that. I've never been the leader, or follower of rants. For the most part, I have more often than not been respectful.
But there are issues that are constant. Just like you said there is a pattern with artists, and their leaving on a post this weekend. Well like you all follow our
patterns, folks follow the patterns around here too. Meaning, everyone I've talked to has the SAME darn gripes, the SAME things that make them packup and leave and throw fits. It's not just one or two people. Well, you guys want less headache...MOST folks that I've talked want the same things...so if there's the same pattern repeatedly in what people are 'flaming' about why not change some things? Change=Change. Now don't jump down my throat for that, I'm just saying nicely...
I think it's fair to say that for the most part everyone wanted the same things but few want tolisten, but everyone wants to be heard! Your wall section, you WILL continue to have problems over it, unless something drastic is changed and you know that. NO RULES, or whoever it was made a darn good suggestion. It would be less headaches for your mods as well. Let the people decide. Let the walls up, if it doesn't get a minimum of 1000 downloads (or whatever) in a months time, down it goes! Your headache is solved.
Indeed it is easy for things to be taken wrong and expressed online. I agree with you.
The point you made again this evening regarding walls, I get what youre saying, but that isn't how you put the other night hon, sorry. It came out really rude! Tonight, it didn't.
Anyway...I'm pooped and I forgot where I was going with it.
Goodnight.
Reply #70 Monday, July 28, 2003 11:47 PM
And thanks for appreciating my suggestion for the wallpaper section. I'm certain it's an idea which will encourage the better artists and lead to less controversy.
Reply #71 Monday, July 28, 2003 11:54 PM
Reply #72 Tuesday, July 29, 2003 12:03 AM
Short and curlies? MWAH HAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA
Sorry for this *laughing with tears* break in the program
LadyA...sweet dreams...and maybe nobuddy said it...but you were and still are appreciated by people. And believe it or not...this site would take you back in a heartbeat and restore your work... Not many sites would do that.
Reply #73 Tuesday, July 29, 2003 12:06 AM
Reply #74 Tuesday, July 29, 2003 12:18 AM
He left gracefully of his own accord and still got his name dragged through the mud via an innocuous initial posting by a fellow artist which turned lethal and is not cool.
Reply #75 Tuesday, July 29, 2003 12:32 AM
| #41 by e-bros - 7/28/2003 10:11:34 PM they feel a certain inherent right to complain more than if they hadn't purchased anything. Wellllll, hells bells this might be all well and good but "the customer is NOT always right" |
It is a simple hierarchy equation. As a subordinate you have to take a customers abuse unless a boss says there is a problem the customer is always right. On the other hand if someone in charge of a company is getting treated very badly by a customer, things change, someone in a position of authority cannot look weak or willing to take abuse…
It may sound negative but employees are gauging every potential weakness that any boss may have and in the future would exploit any weakness. So someone in charge has to remain with an air of authority because people are gauging and scrutinizing everything he does. A person in charge relies on his subordinates to handle the people that are ball breakers, it usually rolls downhill.
Reply #76 Tuesday, July 29, 2003 1:38 AM
These kinds of things are heated, ugly, and usually come to some understanding if not resolution. The thread stays no matter the conclusion. People come back, they read, they get their passions rekindled.. perhaps not even realizing this issue was long since dealt with.
Additionally, things typed in the heat of the moment (even among good friends) can be hard to interpret. Here we have people from all over the world communicating and reacting. It would be better to have these sorts of discussions person to person, in real time. Users of the message boards have said more than once they are tired of the strife.
Why can't you open a dedicated IRC channel for things like this and refer people who want to participate to it? You have the facility; I know it is easy to set up. Conversations would be real time, ambiguities would be cleared up immediately, and the message board would be left in peace. The participants in the discussion would be people who have some interest in the dispute, or at least enough to go to the effort to attend the IRC channel and not the casual rubber-necker who is following the latest 'dirt'. And, importantly, once the issue is dealt with the channel closed. There is no thread for a late-comer to dig up later and refuel the flame.
Also, and this is just my opinion, I wonder if it is a good idea to keep bringing up people who are not around to clarify their stance. I know Nikos, and I know Madice. They are both intelligent, outspoken people who can and will speak clearly for themselves. This is just something that bothered me more than once. The only people who can really say with authority how and what Nikos or Madice has said or done or meant is Nikos and Madice.
Reply #78 Tuesday, July 29, 2003 5:31 AM
Reply #79 Tuesday, July 29, 2003 6:09 AM
Reply #80 Tuesday, July 29, 2003 6:14 AM
From my post #36.....
I've had over 25 years as a volunteer Motor Race Official to season me to the disdain shown towards those willing to give up some of their time to help something which would cease to exist without someone doing it FOR 'them, the great public'.....which is why I 'survive'...
[Must find that link....a real laugh...if I can find it]...
Found it.
http://www.videos.scores.de/alien.shtml
Garn....give it a go....guaranteed to raise a chuckle...
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Reply #61 Monday, July 28, 2003 10:49 PM
I'm not going to go into specifics regarding adni, but anyone who's been around here for any length of time knows that he had several issues with the way this site is run. I know that from reading here and from interaction with nikos.
But that doesn't make him right and us wrong. That was my point. The larger a site, the higher the odds are that a contributing member will take a break or leave or whatever.
I dunno why they reacted the way they did. Maybe they thought it was accpetable to act that way based on seeing other peoples hostile, in your face behavior around here.
I think you would agree that the behavior here by most regulars is fairly mature relative to the average message board on the net. I'm a moderator at Neowin and hang out on a lot of message board. This play is quite soft and cuddly relative to the average forum site.
Go onto moo3.com, for instance, and make a post telling how great GalCiv is and how much better it is and see how long it takes to get fried. I would say people were pretty restrained here.