The Matrix Reloaded Plot Theories
Wednesday, May 21, 2003 by Asimo | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
A few notes before you continue on with this thread:
1) There *will* be spoilers
2) If you’re here to talk about how much you hated the movie, please take it to the appropriate thread
With that said, after viewing Reloaded I was left with as many questions as I went in with, so if you have a take on what happened in the movie, please post ‘em here.
My thoughts on a few things:
.=Zion=.
Two things that we know for sure at the end of the movie is that a) Neo stopped a sentinel while “outside” of the Matrix, and
Agent Smith is now in Zion. These two facts point to one thing: Zion is not the “real world” but is, in fact another portion of the Matrix. .=The Coma=.
After stopping the sentinel Neo slips into a “coma”. I believe that Neo had a moment of ‘self realization’ when he did this that ‘blew his mind’, so to speak. If Zion is still technically within the Matrix, then it is very conceivable that Neo is AI and this realization caused a failure in his code. Or if he is human, it could be that this portion of the Matrix has a different security level in the code and since we’re still technically bound by the rules of the Matrix while within the Matrix, Neo’s realization causes a system error that boot’s him from the system. Either way I think that the coma is induced by code that is either a) written that way so if you “become aware” within this portion of the Matrix then you get kicked from the system, or
an error in the code that cannot handle self realization in this portion of the Matrix..=Zion Revisited=.
If Zion is still a part of the Matrix, or a different ‘security level’ then everything that entails getting to Zion (taking the red pill, breaking free, getting flushed, etc.) are part an elaborate program to convince these individuals that they are now free of the Matrix and are now in the “real world”. If this is the case then it is still entirely possible that everyone is AI and this is an attempt by the larger part of the system to “convince” these portions of the AI that they are, in fact human. If everyone is not AI, then it still makes sense to create an area like this to ‘contain’ these renegades that cannot be contained by the “level 1” version of the Matrix.
.=The Rave Scene=.
There are no gratuitous sex scenes in The Matrix, and I believe that this scene is imagery of a much larger event, that being the union of Neo and Trinity. Perhaps it is of major significance that their “code” merges, or perhaps it is important that we see that they are passionate for one another rather than assume that they are. If we never seem them “together” then we can only assume that they have been intimate, so I think that we’ll find out that it was important that they “merged”. This could actually be a huge point of the last movie.
.=Random Thoughts=.
If AI is written good enough it will not be able to comprehend that it is AI, as this is self defeating to a “pure” AI system. Is it possible that we are watching the creation of the first AI ever that Morpheus mentions in the first Matrix? Is this cycle of Zion a recompiling and running of new code to test the compassion level of the AI towards humans? Could it be that Neo, is in fact the purpose of the AI and the point is to create AI (Neo) that is 100% compassionate towards humans so as to advert world destruction. Did they run a simulation of the AI and deem that if left to its own devices that it would attempt to destroy humanity, so Neo is the “fine tuning” process to make AI “compassionate” towards humanity? The one “failing” of humanity, according to the Architect is hope, and Neo now has that...
I have more but my fingers are tired
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Reply #22 Wednesday, May 21, 2003 5:14 PM
Reply #23 Wednesday, May 21, 2003 5:14 PM
Please note I have not seen the animatrix episodes. Which has some bearing on some of my last comments here, since I lack that background.
This is a bit long. From Monday night.
<Roggae> the first predicate is that nobody has lied
<Roggae> it's only the truth, from a certain point of view or as far as they know
<Roggae> persephone is the mother of the matrix, not the oracle. the architect's "please" comment of neo's "the oracle?" is entirely dismissive
<Roggae> and it explains persephone's wanting to be kissed like he kissed trinity
<Roggae> after all, that's the central difference in this iteration of the one
<Roggae> he loves her, not just a generalized love for zion
<Roggae> hence his choice to return after her and not return to the source and save zion like the others
<Roggae> they are in the real world
<Roggae> the sky is schorched, no way to see the stars, no way to determine time. he is the xth iteration
<Roggae> what he's done though is see past the choice he didn't understand
<Roggae> trinity died
<Roggae> just like the oracle and the arrchitect essentially said
<Roggae> neo saw past that and saved her
<Roggae> that's how he's different from the past
<Roggae> unlike when I walked out of the movie, zion is not already destroyed. they clearly say the machines resumed drilling
<Roggae> morpheus' loss of hope means he can be redeemed in the 3rd movie
<Roggae> because he was right all along
<Roggae> and his faith, as the oracle said in m1, is what is referenced to an extent by "without morpheus, we are lost"
<Chris> ah you mentioned a little bit of this the other day.
<Roggae> I spent way too much time pulling out pieces over the weekend
<Roggae> your bit on the architect text really helped clarify things until I could see it again
<Chris> yes I agree with yout about the generalized love vs the specific love of trinity being the impetus of this
<Roggae> I don't even care so much about that
<Roggae> I think that's obvious, they said as much
<Roggae> I think the trick card here is persephone
<Chris> yeah, I'm still a bit fuzzy about persephone though
<Chris> her being the mother is interesting
<Roggae> think about all the elements of the interaction
<Roggae> the oracle says be here and the merovingian will be there
<Roggae> he has the keymaker
<Roggae> she never says that's the whole story there
<Roggae> the matrix in that building is "encrypted" according to neo
<Roggae> there's that bit when they walk in where somebody is being escorted out, who neo looks at and who makes eye contact with him (music changes as well). happens in the span of 3 sec, not sure what's up there.
<Roggae> merovingian: this is my wife, persephone
<Chris> i missed that
<Roggae> doesn't introduce anybody else
<Roggae> blah blah blah meeting, blah blah blah philosophy, you have no power to interest me
<Roggae> yet neo does
<Roggae> he has the power of love, something for persephone
<Roggae> they leave
<Roggae> morpheus: it's good because we're still alive
<Roggae> boom
<Roggae> persephone there to help them out, with a price. a newness to her.
<Roggae> she's obviously a program
<Roggae> she knwos and can do far too much
<Roggae> the merovingian is a pawn
<Chris> and this is a whole new experience for her (neo's love)?
<Roggae> yes
<Roggae> no, whether she winds up helping them...
<Chris> that makes sense and gives that whole kiss scene meaning
<Roggae> the oracle, in her bit says something like this:
<Roggae> wait
<Roggae> I typed this yesterday
<Roggae> let me find it 
<Chris> hehe
<Chris> movie's completely screwing with your mind
<Roggae> I love a good mind fuck
<Roggae> it's why I've spent so much time thinking about this
<Roggae> I'm interested in one thing, neo, the future
<Roggae> and believe me, I know, the only way to get there is together
<Roggae> we can never see past the choices we don't understand
<Roggae> are you saying I have to choose if trinity lives or dies?
<Roggae> no, you've already made the choice
<Roggae> now you have to understand it
<Roggae> what if I can't what happens if I fail?
<Roggae> then zion will fall
<Roggae> for what it's worth, you've made a believer out of me
<Roggae> back to the first predicate
<Roggae> nobody has lied
<Chris> yeah I had always assumed no one lied in the movie, but the truth was a matter of understanding
<Chris> though I had always assumed that Zion, or at at least the Zion he returned after walkin through the door was still the Matrix
<Chris> but I doubt that now
<Roggae> I thought that when leaving
<Roggae> because it's only 1 line that tells you zion survived
<Chris> the only thing baffeling is interacting with the matrix "unplugged"
<Roggae> its so very subtle
<Chris> as Neo stops the sentinels
<Roggae> perhaps I have an advantage, having not seen the animatrix stuff. unplugged is animatrix?
<Chris> no sorry, just my term, I haven't seen animatrix either
<Chris> In that in the real world, without any phsyical connection to the matrix, neo is able to stop the sentinels
<Roggae> what do you mean by unplugged then?
<Roggae> ah, that
<Roggae> he has the connection with smith
<Roggae> he has part of the matrix
<Roggae> and as such is the "one" to bridge the gap
<Roggae> man and machine coexisting
<Roggae> not exterminating each other (ref the scene with the councilor in lower-levels of zion)
<Chris> yes there's that, I guess I was wondering how that rationally could be explained other than some sort of telepathy or magic
<Roggae> in a very broad sense, we still have no idea how the matrix came out
<Roggae> or why humanity is preserved as (assuming no lies, but remember that morpheus doesn't necessarily know the truth) in the matrix
<Chris> true, we at this point we really know little about the matrix
<Roggae> we may never
<Roggae> it's not 100% germane to the resolution how it came about
<Roggae> unless it was deliberate to foster some sort of X between machine and man
<Roggae> and honestly, there really aren't a lot of hints as to the why in either film
<Roggae> just the how
<Chris> it'd be interesting to learn if there's more to human/machine than just the "human battery" purpose. I hope the next movie continues to fuck preconceptions.
<Roggae> yes
<Roggae> I would like another mind fuck ending
<Roggae> complete resolution where the dance with the ewoks would piss me off
<Chris> hehe yes indeed. I want it to be one big Whoa! at the end
<Nakor> I'll even be happy if keanu says it
Reply #24 Wednesday, May 21, 2003 7:57 PM
I just saw Reloaded again, and after reading your post I am starting to think that Zion is real, and there is no sub-Matrix. The big dance scene that so many complain about actually has huge meaning, as does the kiss between Neo and Persephone. Love, raw emotions that can't be explained or generated by a machine...
More on this later... Must eat...
Reply #25 Thursday, May 22, 2003 8:38 AM
| I believe that most of what he says is true, in that the function of The One is to return to the source, because if Neo is carrying code then it is code that the Architect is unable to come up with himself and Neo’s purpose is to “create” this code (fix the bugs) and merge it back into the main build… so to speak. |
So the architect needs Neo to check in his code....
Reply #26 Thursday, May 22, 2003 10:20 AM
The Matrix: Revolutions --
1. Seraph, Morpheus & Trinity storm “a discotheque of some kind” where people wearing black half/full face-masks (akin to those seen in “Amadeus” times) are dancing/partying
2. Trinity, pointing her gun (at the Merovingian probably) says “give me Neo or we all die right here right now”
3. Merovingian (not shown) says “you’re ready to die for this man?”
4. Trinity cocks her gun and says “believe it.”
The Animatrix: The Second Renaissance – Part I
1. B166-ER’s murder trial sets the stage for a global “Machine Subjugation Legislation” of sorts (similar to the X-Men “Mutant Registration Act” but worse because Machines are simply slaughtered akin our WWII atrocities). B166-ER “killed” his “owners” amidst an argument that probably ensued with their decision to “destroy their property” and testified that “he simply did not want to die.” A trade embargo on Zero-One (the Machine Nation) then ensues when the surviving Machines build more advanced AI which then begins to prosper by selling hi-tech goods to Human consumers.
2. Zero-One Peace Ambassadors to the UN are then rejected.
The Animatrix: The Second Renaissance – Part II
1. Human Armies rain nukes on Zero-One
2. Zero-One retaliates – now with the new and more advanced AI in control of Zero-One (presumably – because these new War Machines are aggressive and destructive with no regard for Humans whatsoever
3. Zero-One gains the upper hand due to advanced weaponry and their immunity to nuclear fallout
4. Human Armies carry-out “Operation Dark Storm” that effectively recaps what Morpheus said in M1 and begin their final offensive
5. Zero-One inflicts “great suffering” on the Human Armies effectively ending the war and constructs the “battery farms” with all the human bodies it managed to claim from the campaign
Notes: there are many machines in the real world. each one is independent of the other and yet dependent on each other. and there are those whose only purpose is to control. and there are those whose only desire is to not be controlled.
Reply #27 Thursday, May 22, 2003 1:30 PM
So, after watching Reloaded again yesterday I’m going to have to step down from my “this is how it is” soapbox when it comes to Zion being a sub-Matrix, because I just don’t see it like that anymore. At least not 100%... I now feel that the dance/party scene and Neo’s kiss with Persephone are two very important scenes. There are no rules in dance. You just move because it makes you feel good. There’s no “logical” reason for dance other than getting your swerve-on, and by watching that again I think that all of those people in that dance were very human. The movements, the sweat, it was all something that we, as humans naturally understand, yet there is no explanation for it. And the passionate kiss is something that the machine can’t fully understand either. It can replicate a kiss, but it cannot replicate a kiss and make one another feel “like you mean it”, something which we humans are very capable of. I dunno, but it now seems to me that the human elements of Zion are shown at length for "human" reasons.
Another thing that I picked up on: Lawrence Fishburn it a great actor, but in these films he’s very rigid, as if they’re asking him to act that way. The more he talks the more he sounds like the Agents when they speak. The more he moves, the more he moves in the “stiff” manner of the Agents. The “truth” serum/program that they were trying to use on him in the first movie didn’t seem to have an effect on him. Morpheus moves, acts, and reasons like a machine. And when presented with a situation where someone said something to the effect of “… let’s hope you’re right.” Morpheus replied with, “I don’t hope, I know.” And as we now know, the machines/AI haven’t (or can’t?) programmed hope into their systems because they think that it is a flaw in human design.
Reply #28 Thursday, May 22, 2003 1:43 PM
If they (the architect/AI) *really* wanted Neo to pick the door to the source (to save Zion) then why did they show him that Trinity was dying, and why did he all but talk Neo into going back into the Matrix, and why even allow the choice of the door back into the Matrix?
Just more random thoughts… hehe…
Reply #29 Thursday, May 22, 2003 2:53 PM
Because the oracle was right, Neo had already made the choice that he was going to try and save Trinity. This was done overtly when he asked her to stay behind and his later actions continued that. She died, like everyone said she would, but he didn't accept that state of affairs.
One could rationalize various explanations for how the architect went about his spiel, but it serves to highlight free will vs. predestination.
There's another line from early in the film that stands out to me as well. It's during the discussion of the drilling and (paraphrased) "250,000 machines, one for every man, woman, and child in Zion". Morpheus makes his entrance and says something to the effect of "That sounds exactly like the thinking of a machine to me."
One wonders how far symbiosis goes in the rabbit hole...
For the dance/rave bit, a fundamentally life-affirming process. R rating or not, Neo and Trinity weren't the only ones getting lucky that night. Everything about the interaction was overtly sexual. Right down to the one kid (I guess from the animatrix) giddy with excitement asking if it had started. First time for him. 
Think about it in a historical context as well. If they've only been in Zion for 100 years (by their reckoning), they must have had a great need to crank up the 100% home-grown human production.
Reply #30 Thursday, May 22, 2003 4:04 PM
i told my friends to wake me up when it was over. 
Reply #31 Thursday, May 22, 2003 4:06 PM
Reply #32 Thursday, May 22, 2003 5:40 PM
There were two things posted to begin this thread: one was that this thread would contain spoilers, and the second was the following:
2) If you’re here to talk about how much you hated the movie, please take it to the appropriate thread
What you have done in your post here is off topic, completely disrespectful to the rest of the community here, and is nothing but trolling.
Please, show some respect and let those who want to talk about this talk about this. If you want to talk about how much you didn’t like the movie then there’s no one stopping you from making a thread about it, so feel free to do so, but please, show a little respect to the rest of the community. There are more people using these boards than just yourself.
Reply #33 Thursday, May 22, 2003 5:54 PM
I’m not following your first paragraph (Because the Oracle was right…) too well. (Mongo slow, please bear with me). I understand that the Oracle was right about Neo already having made up his mind to save Trinity, and I think that is because he can now see “past” his choices (that being that he knew that he could revive her), but I still can’t grasp why, if it is so important for the survival of the machines for Neo to return to the source, that they showed him Trinity dying, knowing that he would go back in and attempt to save her. Or do you think that they didn’t think that he’d actually go back? Perhaps it’s important for the code that he carries that he make the choice himself? I dunno, but it sure does seem like they set it up for Neo to go back into the Matrix instead of going to the Source... as if the really didn't want him to go through the other door in the first place. Like this was their final poker face and they played the BS card as well as they could.
[Message Edited]
Reply #34 Thursday, May 22, 2003 6:23 PM
My argument (to keep things in a simple context) would be that the Oracle and Architect were right that Trinity was going to die.
By extension, Neo had already made the choice she was going to die by attempting to protect her by asking her to stay out of the Matrix. And she did die.
What's "different" about Neo is he "saw past that choice" and was able to save her.
In terms of the survival of the machines? Have you ever seen that picture of a bridge in the western US in the 50's or so? The construction of it missed what was to become an engineering principle and certain conditions happened that allowed a natural resonance to be setup which destroyed the system (in that case the bridge).
As the One, there is a certain pressure valve for the Matrix. A way to allow the impulses of those who"'ve felt it your whole life" (ref: Trinity's first talk with Neo in the club in M1) to be channeled and controlled. Either by being delivered from Matrix (those that are pulled out), by believing in the One to come and deliver others, simply being human (those born in Zion, outside the bounds of the Matrix and its programming), or by being the One and feeling a responsibility to a generalized humanity.
As far as the Architect wanting him to make the choice he did... this gets very much into a speculative realm. I can think of (and have hinted at) plot reasons that this interation of the One ("interesting, that was faster than the others") should be treated differently.
Some of those revolve around Persephone.
It'll be entertaining to see, I expect. I really don't want to delve too far into what might happen in M3. I think its fun for the moment to see what can be teased out of the first 2 with a different perspective.
Reply #35 Friday, May 23, 2003 10:44 AM
Good Forum by the way
Reply #36 Friday, May 23, 2003 1:25 PM
If you're playing the video game and you're following the story then this is going to be a big spoiler, but remember, this thread is all about currently available Matrix spoilers
With that said...
.=This is from someone who just finished the game=.
I finished Enter the Matrix as Niobe and after Niobe helps takes down the Power Plant so that Neo can enter the source, she returns back to her ship. Shortly after that, she gets a call from Seraph. He actually calls her ship, the Logos, from the Matrix. He tells Niobe that the Oracle wants to see her. Niobe goes into the Matrix and visits the Oracle. The oracle has a new body. The Merovingian has something to do with this. She tells Niobe that when Neo entered the Source ,his mind was separated from his body and now he is somewhere between the Matrix and the real world, and Trinity is fighting like hell to save him. I can't remember the conversation verbatim, but it was something pretty close to this. I will watch a few more times tonight.
.==.
Very interesting... Makes me think even more that Zion is not a sub-Matrix and that the "choice" that Neo was presented with in the architect's chamber was actually the "illusion of choice" that the Oracle spoke of, where she also said that these "choices" were vital to the flow of the Matrix itself, and without choice, the Matrix would cease to exist...
The Oracle said that the illusion of choice was the key to making the Matrix work... That without it the Matrix fails.
Reply #37 Friday, May 23, 2003 4:17 PM
Reply #38 Friday, May 23, 2003 4:51 PM
Agent Smith in a human body... how?
Reply #39 Friday, May 23, 2003 4:56 PM
Paul Williams, please take this as a warning.
Stay out of this thread. If you do not want to discuss plot points of the movie, then don't post on this thread.
Saying "shut up- stupid people" will not be tolerated.
This is my only warning.
Reply #40 Friday, May 23, 2003 5:51 PM
I'm told there is something in the game along the following lines:
a comment that the last iteration of the Matrix or Zion or something only lasted 72 hours? Anything on that?
The Merovingian coming through (on some levels) on his "her time is up" bit works well. Esp. given her comments on his power.
I've avoided looking, but is he in 3? Is the actress who plays the Oracle?
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Reply #21 Wednesday, May 21, 2003 4:57 PM