The Matrix Reloaded Plot Theories
Wednesday, May 21, 2003 by Asimo | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
*** SPOILER ALERT ***
A few notes before you continue on with this thread:
1) There *will* be spoilers
2) If you’re here to talk about how much you hated the movie, please take it to the appropriate thread
With that said, after viewing Reloaded I was left with as many questions as I went in with, so if you have a take on what happened in the movie, please post ‘em here.
My thoughts on a few things:
.=Zion=.
Two things that we know for sure at the end of the movie is that a) Neo stopped a sentinel while “outside” of the Matrix, and
Agent Smith is now in Zion. These two facts point to one thing: Zion is not the “real world” but is, in fact another portion of the Matrix.
.=The Coma=.
After stopping the sentinel Neo slips into a “coma”. I believe that Neo had a moment of ‘self realization’ when he did this that ‘blew his mind’, so to speak. If Zion is still technically within the Matrix, then it is very conceivable that Neo is AI and this realization caused a failure in his code. Or if he is human, it could be that this portion of the Matrix has a different security level in the code and since we’re still technically bound by the rules of the Matrix while within the Matrix, Neo’s realization causes a system error that boot’s him from the system. Either way I think that the coma is induced by code that is either a) written that way so if you “become aware” within this portion of the Matrix then you get kicked from the system, or an error in the code that cannot handle self realization in this portion of the Matrix.
.=Zion Revisited=.
If Zion is still a part of the Matrix, or a different ‘security level’ then everything that entails getting to Zion (taking the red pill, breaking free, getting flushed, etc.) are part an elaborate program to convince these individuals that they are now free of the Matrix and are now in the “real world”. If this is the case then it is still entirely possible that everyone is AI and this is an attempt by the larger part of the system to “convince” these portions of the AI that they are, in fact human. If everyone is not AI, then it still makes sense to create an area like this to ‘contain’ these renegades that cannot be contained by the “level 1” version of the Matrix.
.=The Rave Scene=.
There are no gratuitous sex scenes in The Matrix, and I believe that this scene is imagery of a much larger event, that being the union of Neo and Trinity. Perhaps it is of major significance that their “code” merges, or perhaps it is important that we see that they are passionate for one another rather than assume that they are. If we never seem them “together” then we can only assume that they have been intimate, so I think that we’ll find out that it was important that they “merged”. This could actually be a huge point of the last movie.
.=Random Thoughts=.
If AI is written good enough it will not be able to comprehend that it is AI, as this is self defeating to a “pure” AI system. Is it possible that we are watching the creation of the first AI ever that Morpheus mentions in the first Matrix? Is this cycle of Zion a recompiling and running of new code to test the compassion level of the AI towards humans? Could it be that Neo, is in fact the purpose of the AI and the point is to create AI (Neo) that is 100% compassionate towards humans so as to advert world destruction. Did they run a simulation of the AI and deem that if left to its own devices that it would attempt to destroy humanity, so Neo is the “fine tuning” process to make AI “compassionate” towards humanity? The one “failing” of humanity, according to the Architect is hope, and Neo now has that...
I have more but my fingers are tired
A few notes before you continue on with this thread:
1) There *will* be spoilers
2) If you’re here to talk about how much you hated the movie, please take it to the appropriate thread
With that said, after viewing Reloaded I was left with as many questions as I went in with, so if you have a take on what happened in the movie, please post ‘em here.
My thoughts on a few things:
.=Zion=.
Two things that we know for sure at the end of the movie is that a) Neo stopped a sentinel while “outside” of the Matrix, and
Agent Smith is now in Zion. These two facts point to one thing: Zion is not the “real world” but is, in fact another portion of the Matrix. .=The Coma=.
After stopping the sentinel Neo slips into a “coma”. I believe that Neo had a moment of ‘self realization’ when he did this that ‘blew his mind’, so to speak. If Zion is still technically within the Matrix, then it is very conceivable that Neo is AI and this realization caused a failure in his code. Or if he is human, it could be that this portion of the Matrix has a different security level in the code and since we’re still technically bound by the rules of the Matrix while within the Matrix, Neo’s realization causes a system error that boot’s him from the system. Either way I think that the coma is induced by code that is either a) written that way so if you “become aware” within this portion of the Matrix then you get kicked from the system, or
an error in the code that cannot handle self realization in this portion of the Matrix..=Zion Revisited=.
If Zion is still a part of the Matrix, or a different ‘security level’ then everything that entails getting to Zion (taking the red pill, breaking free, getting flushed, etc.) are part an elaborate program to convince these individuals that they are now free of the Matrix and are now in the “real world”. If this is the case then it is still entirely possible that everyone is AI and this is an attempt by the larger part of the system to “convince” these portions of the AI that they are, in fact human. If everyone is not AI, then it still makes sense to create an area like this to ‘contain’ these renegades that cannot be contained by the “level 1” version of the Matrix.
.=The Rave Scene=.
There are no gratuitous sex scenes in The Matrix, and I believe that this scene is imagery of a much larger event, that being the union of Neo and Trinity. Perhaps it is of major significance that their “code” merges, or perhaps it is important that we see that they are passionate for one another rather than assume that they are. If we never seem them “together” then we can only assume that they have been intimate, so I think that we’ll find out that it was important that they “merged”. This could actually be a huge point of the last movie.
.=Random Thoughts=.
If AI is written good enough it will not be able to comprehend that it is AI, as this is self defeating to a “pure” AI system. Is it possible that we are watching the creation of the first AI ever that Morpheus mentions in the first Matrix? Is this cycle of Zion a recompiling and running of new code to test the compassion level of the AI towards humans? Could it be that Neo, is in fact the purpose of the AI and the point is to create AI (Neo) that is 100% compassionate towards humans so as to advert world destruction. Did they run a simulation of the AI and deem that if left to its own devices that it would attempt to destroy humanity, so Neo is the “fine tuning” process to make AI “compassionate” towards humanity? The one “failing” of humanity, according to the Architect is hope, and Neo now has that...
I have more but my fingers are tired
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Chris
Reply #3 Wednesday, May 21, 2003 11:26 AM
Reply #3 Wednesday, May 21, 2003 11:26 AM
If you have nothing to say about the movie, why then do you post in a thread dealing with plot theories, other than to put down and insult others who found the movie interesting and worth thinking about, and wish to discuss. Please troll elsewhere
Asimo
Reply #4 Wednesday, May 21, 2003 11:32 AM
Reply #4 Wednesday, May 21, 2003 11:32 AM
Frogboy -
I agree with your thoughts on the “super human” (ESP) possibilities that are posed. I just haven’t explored that side of it too deeply yet… and thinking about it, there are many “human” elements that they focus on that, like you, makes me believe that they will not reduce this whole series to one big “AI Dream”.
KarmaGirl –
Morpheus, Neo, Trinity = The Father, The Son, and The Holy Ghost
... I dunno, hehe
Could the name “Trinity” suggest the Holy Trinity to a degree? Could they be trying to “emulate” God to a degree within the construct of the Matrix to give the AI within it some sense of “religion”?
I agree with your thoughts on the “super human” (ESP) possibilities that are posed. I just haven’t explored that side of it too deeply yet… and thinking about it, there are many “human” elements that they focus on that, like you, makes me believe that they will not reduce this whole series to one big “AI Dream”.
KarmaGirl –
Morpheus, Neo, Trinity = The Father, The Son, and The Holy Ghost
... I dunno, hehe
Could the name “Trinity” suggest the Holy Trinity to a degree? Could they be trying to “emulate” God to a degree within the construct of the Matrix to give the AI within it some sense of “religion”?
KarmaGirl
Reply #5 Wednesday, May 21, 2003 11:38 AM
Reply #5 Wednesday, May 21, 2003 11:38 AM
Neo is "the One". Is that like Christ?
Obviously Zion is connected still with the Matrix. the Architect was going to allow Neo to pick people to form the next Zion race with and everyone else will be destroyed. How can the Architect have the power to destroy everyone?
Or, maybe he is not God, but the Devil.
What About Agent Smith? Why is he always trying to stop Neo? Is it to save the Matrix? Or is he the Architects helping hand?
Why do they (ie: the Architect) need to keep re-doing the Matrix all the time? Is it like saving your good data then reformatting? 
werewolf
Reply #6 Wednesday, May 21, 2003 11:44 AM
Reply #6 Wednesday, May 21, 2003 11:44 AM
maybe Neo is more of a moses kind of guy. Smith seems more like a devil now. Neo is leading his people out of the matrix to the 'promised land' of Zion, Smith is just mad at Neo and trying to kill him. Hmmm who knows
Chris
Reply #7 Wednesday, May 21, 2003 11:46 AM
Reply #7 Wednesday, May 21, 2003 11:46 AM
argghh. waited too long to edit my post to remove my trolling comment after kona's apology. Oh well...disregard it then...
Asimo
Reply #8 Wednesday, May 21, 2003 11:49 AM
Reply #8 Wednesday, May 21, 2003 11:49 AM
It’s almost as if the existence of Zion is a “fine tuning” process. When “The One” materializes it could be a signal that the program run is complete and that it is now time to “reset” the program, fix the bugs, recompile, and run it again. The Architect tells Neo the following:
.=The Architect=.
“You have many questions, and although the process has altered your consciousness, you remain irrevocably human.
You life is the sum of the remainder of an unbalanced equation inherent to the programming of the Matrix. You are the eventuality of an anomaly, which despite my sincerest efforts, I’ve been unable to eliminate from what is otherwise a harmony of mathematical precision.
(Zion is a systemic anomaly that if left unchecked it might threaten the system itself)
The function of The One is now to return to the source allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry reinserting the prime program. After which you will be required to select from The Matrix 23 individuals, 16 females, 7 males, to rebuild Zion. Failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash killing everyone connected to The Matrix, which coupled with the extermination of Zion will ultimately result in the extinction of the entire human race.”
.==.
I believe that most of what he says is true, in that the function of The One is to return to the source, because if Neo is carrying code then it is code that the Architect is unable to come up with himself and Neo’s purpose is to “create” this code (fix the bugs) and merge it back into the main build… so to speak.
As for him telling Neo that he is human, I still don't know. I *want* Neo to be human ... I think we all do, but I'm no longer certain that he is.
.=The Architect=.
“You have many questions, and although the process has altered your consciousness, you remain irrevocably human.
You life is the sum of the remainder of an unbalanced equation inherent to the programming of the Matrix. You are the eventuality of an anomaly, which despite my sincerest efforts, I’ve been unable to eliminate from what is otherwise a harmony of mathematical precision.
(Zion is a systemic anomaly that if left unchecked it might threaten the system itself)
The function of The One is now to return to the source allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry reinserting the prime program. After which you will be required to select from The Matrix 23 individuals, 16 females, 7 males, to rebuild Zion. Failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash killing everyone connected to The Matrix, which coupled with the extermination of Zion will ultimately result in the extinction of the entire human race.”
.==.
I believe that most of what he says is true, in that the function of The One is to return to the source, because if Neo is carrying code then it is code that the Architect is unable to come up with himself and Neo’s purpose is to “create” this code (fix the bugs) and merge it back into the main build… so to speak.
As for him telling Neo that he is human, I still don't know. I *want* Neo to be human
... I think we all do, but I'm no longer certain that he is.
Chris
Reply #9 Wednesday, May 21, 2003 11:54 AM
Reply #9 Wednesday, May 21, 2003 11:54 AM
As for redoing the Matrix, the way I understand it (and bear in mind I'm pullling this out of the air) is that it's not a perfect solution. A certain percentage of people can't except that. As Asimo stated above, rather than allow the rabble to roam free, the system is designed to focus and contain them as much as possible. Eventually it reaches critical mass and Zion must be purged (much like dragging unwanted stuff to you recycle bin and then eventually emptying it.
As for rebooting the Matrix, perhaps the point of Neo going to the source and then rebooting the Matrix and Zion is to incorporate The One's knowledge of humanity back into the Matrix such that on the next reboot, the Matrix is further tuned to make it more efficient, in an attempt to futher reduce the percentage of people who can't accept the Matrix and ulimately become malcontents (Or did I just reiterate what was already stated before?)
[Message Edited]
As for rebooting the Matrix, perhaps the point of Neo going to the source and then rebooting the Matrix and Zion is to incorporate The One's knowledge of humanity back into the Matrix such that on the next reboot, the Matrix is further tuned to make it more efficient, in an attempt to futher reduce the percentage of people who can't accept the Matrix and ulimately become malcontents (Or did I just reiterate what was already stated before?)
[Message Edited]
Chris
Reply #10 Wednesday, May 21, 2003 11:56 AM
Reply #10 Wednesday, May 21, 2003 11:56 AM
Just want to point out I wasn't copying Asimo's post above mine. I just read it. Looks like Asimo is thinking along the same lines as I am.
werewolf
Reply #11 Wednesday, May 21, 2003 12:01 PM
Reply #11 Wednesday, May 21, 2003 12:01 PM
Chris, what you stated is what I got from the Architects whole speech. He's trying to refine the matrix to make it more palatable.
Asimo
Reply #12 Wednesday, May 21, 2003 12:04 PM
Reply #12 Wednesday, May 21, 2003 12:04 PM
Aye Chris, perhaps the point of Zion is to “study” humans for several reasons:
1) The better the AI understands human nature the better it can create a Matrix that they will not “want” to escape from
2) The purpose of AI is to perfect human actions and reactions, and the people that don’t accept the “level 1” version of the Matrix and make it to the Zion level are a little more complex than the rest of the sheep. Perhaps it is this desire to break free, this hope that the renegades possess, that the AI wants to capture and code into itself… In a “safe” way tho, hehe…
1) The better the AI understands human nature the better it can create a Matrix that they will not “want” to escape from
2) The purpose of AI is to perfect human actions and reactions, and the people that don’t accept the “level 1” version of the Matrix and make it to the Zion level are a little more complex than the rest of the sheep. Perhaps it is this desire to break free, this hope that the renegades possess, that the AI wants to capture and code into itself… In a “safe” way tho, hehe…
Chris
Reply #13 Wednesday, May 21, 2003 12:05 PM
Yeah, guess I'm stating the obvious. sorry about that.
[Message Edited]
Reply #13 Wednesday, May 21, 2003 12:05 PM
| what you stated is what I got from the Architects whole speech. He's trying to refine the matrix to make it more palatable |
[Message Edited]
MadIce
Reply #14 Wednesday, May 21, 2003 12:14 PM
Reply #14 Wednesday, May 21, 2003 12:14 PM
Some of today's real AI programs only contain the basic logic. When started the program learns. The code contains rules about what is considered to be failure or success. At the end of its life cycle only the parts of the "experience" are used to generate a new version of the program based on those rules. The building blocks of such programs are small units called agents. Each agent can have its own set of AI rules.
Back to the Matrix. We are told that this is the 6th generation of the program. And we do see agents that act independently. Smith is one of them. All characters you see are agents (not only one ones called agents in the movie) and are part of the program.
Let's assume that this program serves a purpose then it wouldn't surprise me if we are looking at a program that simulates the Matrix. Its purpose will be how to control the "real" Matrix.
The fun part is of course what we expect to be the end of the movie. Since it is science fiction, cyber punk or whatever we call it, it can still go any direction. Below is my theory about it.
If Asimov's 3 (or 4) laws of robotics are correct then the program needs to desctruct itself to give humans their freedom. We see that the simulation of the Matrix is destroying itself time after time and I wouldn't be surprised if the Matrix III ends with a total destruction of AI itself. Each new generation of the simulation starts with a limited amount of agents (simulated free humans). Maybe trough genetic manipulation of the real humans the Matrix can guarantee that after it really destroys itself history won't repeat. It thereby returns "freedom" to the humans. But since they are genetically manipulated will they really have a choise and is that so called freedom real afterall?
Back to the Matrix. We are told that this is the 6th generation of the program. And we do see agents that act independently. Smith is one of them. All characters you see are agents (not only one ones called agents in the movie) and are part of the program.
Let's assume that this program serves a purpose then it wouldn't surprise me if we are looking at a program that simulates the Matrix. Its purpose will be how to control the "real" Matrix.
The fun part is of course what we expect to be the end of the movie. Since it is science fiction, cyber punk or whatever we call it, it can still go any direction. Below is my theory about it.
If Asimov's 3 (or 4) laws of robotics are correct then the program needs to desctruct itself to give humans their freedom. We see that the simulation of the Matrix is destroying itself time after time and I wouldn't be surprised if the Matrix III ends with a total destruction of AI itself. Each new generation of the simulation starts with a limited amount of agents (simulated free humans). Maybe trough genetic manipulation of the real humans the Matrix can guarantee that after it really destroys itself history won't repeat. It thereby returns "freedom" to the humans. But since they are genetically manipulated will they really have a choise and is that so called freedom real afterall?
Asimo
Reply #15 Wednesday, May 21, 2003 1:27 PM
Reply #15 Wednesday, May 21, 2003 1:27 PM
I think that Agent Smith will play a huge role in the final movie. I am convinced that his code was never supposed to know/enter the Zion level of the Matrix. The Oracle says that programs that are marked for deletion tend to leave and “live” anonymously within the Matrix while avoiding deletion. The majority of programs within the Matrix are completely bound by the rules of the Matrix, however the Agents (true Agents, not the agents that MadIce is referring to) are not. Perhaps he was marked for deletion, or (more likely) he simply disconnected from the main programming of the Matrix, but either way Agent Smith is now a renegade program that is completely acting on his own. Much like a hard drive image program, he is now able to transfer his code to others within the Matrix.
As for Neo and Smith’s connection, I dunno yet. That’s a tricky one. At the beginning of the movie Neo can ‘sense’ Agents. I don’t know if this ability has been explained, but I don’t recall him being able to do it at any point in the first movie. Maybe this is a byproduct of becoming “aware” within this level of the Matrix. Or maybe when he “entered” Agent Smith there was a transfer of code, and his code is now able to detect Agents when they get within a certain distance… hehe, kind of like those little “Pocket Pets” toys that’ll rumble when someone else with one walks by.
It would be interesting to watch both movies and look for specific instances of Asimov’s laws of robotics to see if the have actually applied any of them.
I like the idea of the AI creating a system that is trying to set up a system where history will not be repeated.
As for Neo and Smith’s connection, I dunno yet. That’s a tricky one. At the beginning of the movie Neo can ‘sense’ Agents. I don’t know if this ability has been explained, but I don’t recall him being able to do it at any point in the first movie. Maybe this is a byproduct of becoming “aware” within this level of the Matrix. Or maybe when he “entered” Agent Smith there was a transfer of code, and his code is now able to detect Agents when they get within a certain distance… hehe, kind of like those little “Pocket Pets” toys that’ll rumble when someone else with one walks by.
It would be interesting to watch both movies and look for specific instances of Asimov’s laws of robotics to see if the have actually applied any of them.
I like the idea of the AI creating a system that is trying to set up a system where history will not be repeated.
werewolf
Reply #16 Wednesday, May 21, 2003 1:35 PM
Reply #16 Wednesday, May 21, 2003 1:35 PM
If Asimov's laws of robotics are being applied in the Matrix, then Neo and all the other characters we have 'assumed' to be human, cannot be a human because those characters have been killed by agents. Smith himself was trying very hard to kill Neo in the first movie. So either the Robotics laws are not in effect, or Neo et al are not human.
Chris
Reply #17 Wednesday, May 21, 2003 1:47 PM
Reply #17 Wednesday, May 21, 2003 1:47 PM
Without getting too derailed from the main thrust of this thread, Asimov's inital 3 rules were:
1. A robot must never harm a human being
2. A robot must do what a human tells it to do, unless this conflicts with Rule #1
3. A robot must preserve itself, unless this conflicts with Rule #1 or Rule #2
IIRC, he later added a 4th rule, but I can't recall it
As for Smith and Neo, did not Smith say something to the effect they he gained something from Neo when Neo originally "killed" him? There seemed to have been some unspecified sort of transference of karma or essence between the two. If they inded did "share" code, then Smith got something of humanity from Neo
1. A robot must never harm a human being
2. A robot must do what a human tells it to do, unless this conflicts with Rule #1
3. A robot must preserve itself, unless this conflicts with Rule #1 or Rule #2
IIRC, he later added a 4th rule, but I can't recall it
As for Smith and Neo, did not Smith say something to the effect they he gained something from Neo when Neo originally "killed" him? There seemed to have been some unspecified sort of transference of karma or essence between the two. If they inded did "share" code, then Smith got something of humanity from Neo
werewolf
Reply #18 Wednesday, May 21, 2003 2:00 PM
Reply #18 Wednesday, May 21, 2003 2:00 PM
The fourth law was called the Zeroth (0th) law and took precedent above all
others. It dealt with humanity as a whole. If Neo is human, then Agent Smith, as a representative of a machine entity, could cause no harm to come to Neo.
others. It dealt with humanity as a whole. If Neo is human, then Agent Smith, as a representative of a machine entity, could cause no harm to come to Neo.
MadIce
Reply #19 Wednesday, May 21, 2003 2:02 PM
Reply #19 Wednesday, May 21, 2003 2:02 PM
The Additional 'Zeroth' Law of Robotics:
'A robot may not injure humanity, or through inaction, allow humanity to come to harm.'
'A robot may not injure humanity, or through inaction, allow humanity to come to harm.'
Asimo
Reply #20 Wednesday, May 21, 2003 2:06 PM
Reply #20 Wednesday, May 21, 2003 2:06 PM
Chris –
I’ve been thinking along the same path that perhaps there was some sort of metaphysical transfer between Neo and Smith, thus enabling some human “abilities” in Smith, and “super human” abilities in Neo (controlling machines outside of the Matrix). If this is the case then this one thing alone could blow the whole “Zion is a part of the Matrix” theory out of the water.
*erases slate*
*starts new theory*
hehehe
I’ve been thinking along the same path that perhaps there was some sort of metaphysical transfer between Neo and Smith, thus enabling some human “abilities” in Smith, and “super human” abilities in Neo (controlling machines outside of the Matrix). If this is the case then this one thing alone could blow the whole “Zion is a part of the Matrix” theory out of the water.
*erases slate*
*starts new theory*
hehehe
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Reply #1 Wednesday, May 21, 2003 11:11 AM
I was thinking much the same thing. But then there's the Animatrix which makes a big deal about the back story of the Matrix. From a story telling point of view, I think it woudl be too much of a cop-out if the whole thing is part of the matrix.
I could buy that Neo at the end is still in the Matrix but even that I think is pushing things.
I tend to think of it in a bit more conventional way, that is, that what makes Neo different in the Matrix is that he has a sort of ESP. And in fact, all those who reject the matrix do so because they have a higher ESP rating than others. Hence, Neo can, to a limited degree, affect the machines outside the Matrix.