Good Vs. Evil
Tuesday, March 4, 2003 by joetheblow | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
Who wins? Why? Is it really winning if the outcome is already settled?
More on this later.
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paxx
Reply #122 Monday, March 10, 2003 9:10 AM
Reply #122 Monday, March 10, 2003 9:10 AM
Lecrayon, I actually believe the opposite.
Call me pessimist, or whatever, but I believe we are born "evil", in that we are animals and as such, if we had no social behavior tought to us, we would probably kill left and right to get what we wanted. It's the sad truth of the infamous "the fittest survive".
I have two boys, 2 and 4 years old. Were we not there to stop them, they'd fight and push and bit and punch all the time. We have to teach them to be nice to each other. They have to learn to be "good".
Call me pessimist, or whatever, but I believe we are born "evil", in that we are animals and as such, if we had no social behavior tought to us, we would probably kill left and right to get what we wanted. It's the sad truth of the infamous "the fittest survive".
I have two boys, 2 and 4 years old. Were we not there to stop them, they'd fight and push and bit and punch all the time. We have to teach them to be nice to each other. They have to learn to be "good".
Lecrayon
Reply #123 Monday, March 10, 2003 9:20 AM
Reply #123 Monday, March 10, 2003 9:20 AM
Paxx, for a long time I have believed the same as you 
I would agree with your teaching to be good, but since children copy adults it sort of sinks into them. We teach them wrong by our own actions on adult level.
I would agree with your teaching to be good, but since children copy adults it sort of sinks into them. We teach them wrong by our own actions on adult level. 
IPlural
Reply #124 Tuesday, March 11, 2003 2:11 AM
Reply #124 Tuesday, March 11, 2003 2:11 AM
animal nature, the mind and consiousness is a clean slate, environment lends the largest hand in developing personalities and morals. That does not only mean at home either... and it also innvolves teaching why people do what they do and explaining that they will have to make their own choices in what they will do because you will not be around all the time to keep notes and present possibilities. They have to learn to discern the path they will choose to follow...
anyway... just my pov...
ewww, Boomer is eating ants...
talk about a clean slate on the mental side of things!
anyway... just my pov...
ewww, Boomer is eating ants...
talk about a clean slate on the mental side of things!
craeonics
Reply #125 Tuesday, March 11, 2003 3:34 AM
Reply #125 Tuesday, March 11, 2003 3:34 AM
I'm starting to like IPlural. Even though he rants way too much.
And I really think people should get over this good/evil thing and take things as they are. Outside the box, folks. Try it.
And I really think people should get over this good/evil thing and take things as they are. Outside the box, folks. Try it.
joetheblow
Reply #126 Wednesday, March 12, 2003 12:49 AM
Reply #126 Wednesday, March 12, 2003 12:49 AM
I was wondering if anyone would mention Hitler or Stalin. Mother Teresa, Martin Luther King... I am sure we have strong feelings about them... The Watts riot, South Africa, camps, slavery, the Klan... I am sure there are allot of examples of Good and Evil. I would say slavery is Evil. Someone else could say it is good... even quote something from religion to say its good. Isn't it true that most of the "Great Civilizations" were built of of the backs of slaves?
I am sure the Klan thought it was a "nessicary evil" to burn down homes and churches and torch a cross on the lawn. I am sure that some thought it "God's work", even though the burn the very symbol that represents that belief.
I feel as humans, we as slowly finding out what is Good or Evil. In many ways our survival depends on it. No matter what we believe is Good or Evil, I am sure that in the end evil is self destructive and will take anyone around with it, leaving the rest to choose otherwise.
I am sure the Klan thought it was a "nessicary evil" to burn down homes and churches and torch a cross on the lawn. I am sure that some thought it "God's work", even though the burn the very symbol that represents that belief.
I feel as humans, we as slowly finding out what is Good or Evil. In many ways our survival depends on it. No matter what we believe is Good or Evil, I am sure that in the end evil is self destructive and will take anyone around with it, leaving the rest to choose otherwise.
joetheblow
Reply #127 Wednesday, March 12, 2003 1:27 AM
Reply #127 Wednesday, March 12, 2003 1:27 AM
If we belive something is Good and it turns out to be something else. Was it ever good? Is it now evil or always been evil? I believe allot of religist text is more about guiding humans toward Good and to help us figure out what is what. Notice in the end you will be judged for your actions, but you do not know the out come. All you can do is try.
I just find it strange that there are so many answers to the ideal and yet I here the words evil plastered all over the news, coming out of peoples mouth every day lately. It bothers me allot. Almost giving it a stage.
Another tid bit... there are those who I would find 'evil' like Hitler. I am also sure that those who followed him in ernest thought he was Good. I doubt that a human being with an idea of Good and Evil would purpusly follow someone evil (unless they wanted a death wish) beacue in the end that leader does not care about you and would kill you in a second. Funny, I don't think anyone would doubt evil is self distructive, the question is are we sure we are on the right side.
This is why I thik Good is the want to become better. To try to help and learn. Think about your actions and if it will harm others. The want not to be self destuctive to yourself or anyone else. Good is the ability to do Evil but the strength and character to do otherwise. You have knowledge of it and know how to stop yourself. (which is also why I believe that Good has extreme intelligence to carry out this feet). what we call good and what is reall Good can be 2 different things. What we call good can have more bad than what the actual Good would have. What we call evil might be very bad but has an oppertunity to be trun into good. What actuall Evil might have been might have been way worst.
And still the question remains; are we on the right side.
I just find it strange that there are so many answers to the ideal and yet I here the words evil plastered all over the news, coming out of peoples mouth every day lately. It bothers me allot. Almost giving it a stage.
Another tid bit... there are those who I would find 'evil' like Hitler. I am also sure that those who followed him in ernest thought he was Good. I doubt that a human being with an idea of Good and Evil would purpusly follow someone evil (unless they wanted a death wish) beacue in the end that leader does not care about you and would kill you in a second. Funny, I don't think anyone would doubt evil is self distructive, the question is are we sure we are on the right side.
This is why I thik Good is the want to become better. To try to help and learn. Think about your actions and if it will harm others. The want not to be self destuctive to yourself or anyone else. Good is the ability to do Evil but the strength and character to do otherwise. You have knowledge of it and know how to stop yourself. (which is also why I believe that Good has extreme intelligence to carry out this feet). what we call good and what is reall Good can be 2 different things. What we call good can have more bad than what the actual Good would have. What we call evil might be very bad but has an oppertunity to be trun into good. What actuall Evil might have been might have been way worst.
And still the question remains; are we on the right side.
@shu
Reply #128 Wednesday, March 12, 2003 2:08 AM
Reply #128 Wednesday, March 12, 2003 2:08 AM
It is for the future generations to answer, joetheblow. We can no more be sure about the 'ultimate' consequences of our actions than we are about the next second.
The future generations judge us by the fruits that they reap as a result of our doings. This, is the Karmic cycle...
But the greater question right now is if a vast majority of the human race decide that your actions are evil, can you still justify them?
The future generations judge us by the fruits that they reap as a result of our doings. This, is the Karmic cycle...
But the greater question right now is if a vast majority of the human race decide that your actions are evil, can you still justify them?
craeonics
Reply #129 Wednesday, March 12, 2003 3:41 AM
Reply #129 Wednesday, March 12, 2003 3:41 AM
"Good is the want to become better"
Self-fullfilling prophecy. Or even a pleonasm (or was that a tautology?). Compare it to:
"Cool is the want to become cooler".
"Big is the want to become bigger".
"Hungry is the want to become hungrier".
"Cheesy is the want to become cheesier".
Self-fullfilling prophecy. Or even a pleonasm (or was that a tautology?). Compare it to:
"Cool is the want to become cooler".
"Big is the want to become bigger".
"Hungry is the want to become hungrier".
"Cheesy is the want to become cheesier".
craeonics
Reply #130 Wednesday, March 12, 2003 3:49 AM
Reply #130 Wednesday, March 12, 2003 3:49 AM
While I'm being a smartass:
"The future generations judge us by the fruits that they reap as a result of our doings. This, is the Karmic cycle..."
Karma, if I'm not mistaken, is the path of your current life, shaped by actions undertaken in past incarnations. Ergo, if you're a pauper now, that's karma based on wrong actions in previous lives.
My point being that Karma is self-centred, not holistic. Your Karma affects you, not others. Though ofcourse your actions, which are caused by Karma, affect others, but this is indirectly.
At any rate, I do agree with your point (so don't worry).
"The future generations judge us by the fruits that they reap as a result of our doings. This, is the Karmic cycle..."
Karma, if I'm not mistaken, is the path of your current life, shaped by actions undertaken in past incarnations. Ergo, if you're a pauper now, that's karma based on wrong actions in previous lives.
My point being that Karma is self-centred, not holistic. Your Karma affects you, not others. Though ofcourse your actions, which are caused by Karma, affect others, but this is indirectly.
At any rate, I do agree with your point (so don't worry).
IPlural
Reply #131 Wednesday, March 12, 2003 5:26 AM
Reply #131 Wednesday, March 12, 2003 5:26 AM
Joe, no one cared what Hitler, Stalin, PolPot did while they just killed their own peoples whole sale, it was when Hitler decided to expand his killing that they started to take notice and it still took years before they did anything.
Stalin, no one cared in the least beyond lip service.
PolPot was the same and no one cared for years and years...
Saddam, hell we used him to kill Irainians, we sold him chemical weapons, and bio weapons, he used them we turned a blind eye, now Slappy makes claims of moral contempt for the exact things we let him do and provided the resources to do... neat huh?
anyway....
Stalin, no one cared in the least beyond lip service.
PolPot was the same and no one cared for years and years...
Saddam, hell we used him to kill Irainians, we sold him chemical weapons, and bio weapons, he used them we turned a blind eye, now Slappy makes claims of moral contempt for the exact things we let him do and provided the resources to do... neat huh?
anyway....
IPlural
Reply #132 Wednesday, March 12, 2003 5:30 AM
Reply #132 Wednesday, March 12, 2003 5:30 AM
craeonics - exactly as I think also... The same with Morals, they are a tool personal in nature and a means to measure ones choices and actions or lack of action in any given situation. Kind of like an inner guide, though most seem to want to or need to apply them upon others as a mean of lowering that person status and moral right...
Everyone has one goal in life when you boil off all the fat, happiness...
We all seek it, in many different manners, and yet the question ends up being are we willing to steal a part of anothers happiness, or means of attaining it to benifit ourselves over them.. That is evil...
anyway
Everyone has one goal in life when you boil off all the fat, happiness...
We all seek it, in many different manners, and yet the question ends up being are we willing to steal a part of anothers happiness, or means of attaining it to benifit ourselves over them.. That is evil...
anyway
paxx
Reply #133 Wednesday, March 12, 2003 5:59 AM
Reply #133 Wednesday, March 12, 2003 5:59 AM
Good and Evil is really just a religious concept. If there was no religion, we'd still have that concept but it would be called something else, probably simply "the law", or the do's and the dont's of our civilisation.
Please understand that when I say that there is no absolute good or evil, I am not defending all the evil doers of the planet. I am just saying that they are evil because WE defined the rules that make Good and Evil, and they have gone against those rules, therefore positioning themselves as "evil".
But I don't believe in God. I believe in human nature and social behaviors. Religious people think that God defines what Good or Evil is, and that's what makes them go to war with a free concience, they think that God is on their side, so they can go kill a bunch of people for goodness' sake.
Please understand that when I say that there is no absolute good or evil, I am not defending all the evil doers of the planet. I am just saying that they are evil because WE defined the rules that make Good and Evil, and they have gone against those rules, therefore positioning themselves as "evil".
But I don't believe in God. I believe in human nature and social behaviors. Religious people think that God defines what Good or Evil is, and that's what makes them go to war with a free concience, they think that God is on their side, so they can go kill a bunch of people for goodness' sake.
IPlural
Reply #135 Wednesday, March 12, 2003 6:05 AM
Reply #135 Wednesday, March 12, 2003 6:05 AM
paxx, really? wow, kinda spooky, I know we are very different, hell I am very different from the rest of me, but I think and feel the same way...
My faith is in humanity and it being able to step above the animal inside of us to grasp beyond to what many wish and dream for and yet never seem to feel their is any chance of ataining...
but, we can
one person at a time...
well, also with a little help, my children are, mmm, they think different, and are a bit more mature than others their age because of it. They look to see the cause and affect in relationships and actions or non action and adjust how they feel best suits them. They also understand they have to deal with the outcome of those choices...
My faith is in humanity and it being able to step above the animal inside of us to grasp beyond to what many wish and dream for and yet never seem to feel their is any chance of ataining...
but, we can
one person at a time...well, also with a little help, my children are, mmm, they think different, and are a bit more mature than others their age because of it. They look to see the cause and affect in relationships and actions or non action and adjust how they feel best suits them. They also understand they have to deal with the outcome of those choices...
Jafo
Reply #136 Wednesday, March 12, 2003 7:04 AM
Reply #136 Wednesday, March 12, 2003 7:04 AM
The 'good' are just more adept at hiding their 'evil'...
Pretty simple, really....
Pretty simple, really....
Lecrayon
Reply #137 Wednesday, March 12, 2003 9:32 AM
Reply #137 Wednesday, March 12, 2003 9:32 AM
I don't believe in social structure. I don't believe in oppression. I don't believe in any fom of government. I believe in good people doing good. And I also believe that on this earth with the current social structures, which are hierarchy based, nothing good will arise from it. The good elements are simply "eliminated".
joetheblow
Reply #138 Wednesday, March 12, 2003 10:26 AM
Reply #138 Wednesday, March 12, 2003 10:26 AM
#136 by Jafo - 3/12/2003 7:04:08 AM
The 'good' are just more adept at hiding their 'evil'...
Pretty simple, really....
Yes. That is most of what I mean. I am not speaking of good and evil in religist (spell) terms. (I am sure no one will say or believe that God is 'hiding' all the 'evil' traits) I am saying that I think it is a actual element in this Universe. Your house exists, your dog, your body and so does the aforementioned good and evil.
Could it be that there is a way to 'see' this element, if it truely exists?
With the Hitler (and others more or less) situation, what I was saying is that the people who followed them felt they where 'right' or they were on the good side. They weren't saying, "Hey lets join him and spread evil all across the land."
then again maybe some were...
The 'good' are just more adept at hiding their 'evil'...
Pretty simple, really....
Yes. That is most of what I mean. I am not speaking of good and evil in religist (spell) terms. (I am sure no one will say or believe that God is 'hiding' all the 'evil' traits) I am saying that I think it is a actual element in this Universe. Your house exists, your dog, your body and so does the aforementioned good and evil.
Could it be that there is a way to 'see' this element, if it truely exists?
With the Hitler (and others more or less) situation, what I was saying is that the people who followed them felt they where 'right' or they were on the good side. They weren't saying, "Hey lets join him and spread evil all across the land."
then again maybe some were...
Lecrayon
Reply #139 Wednesday, March 12, 2003 11:10 AM
Reply #139 Wednesday, March 12, 2003 11:10 AM
You will see a lot of good when you are open to it. A flower thanking for the sun and opening its leaves. A flock of birds chatting to each other from a few trees. Feeling being one with the earth. Realizing your amazing existence. Feeling like an ignorant child discovering all the beauties around you. Let you surprise with the mingling of natural colours. The smell of the seasons, the resurrection of life after winter. Seeing someone's face become brighter when you smile at them.
paxx
Reply #140 Wednesday, March 12, 2003 11:49 AM
Reply #140 Wednesday, March 12, 2003 11:49 AM
joetheblow: if you were right, then the same thing would have been considered good and evil at all times and in all cultures. It would be prosumptuous to think that only our civilisation knows what true good or true evil is.
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Reply #121 Monday, March 10, 2003 9:04 AM