Good Vs. Evil
Tuesday, March 4, 2003 by joetheblow | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
Who wins? Why? Is it really winning if the outcome is already settled?
More on this later.
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Doreen
Reply #42 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 10:19 AM
Reply #42 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 10:19 AM
I think my conscience lives in my heart then cuz that's where I feel it all (not really in my head much) hehe
but true "most" ppl are brought up a certain way so they look at things differently still don't understand why or how one human being can look at another and use them as a slave and not feel for them? so strange isn't it human instinct to feel compasion for each other?
but true "most" ppl are brought up a certain way so they look at things differently still don't understand why or how one human being can look at another and use them as a slave and not feel for them? so strange isn't it human instinct to feel compasion for each other?
craeonics
Reply #43 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 11:13 AM
Reply #43 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 11:13 AM
Only for those that one considers to be his peers. Back in the days, people would considered slaves to be "beasts", not human, so it was okay to mistreat them (or so they thought).
paxx
Reply #44 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 11:34 AM
Reply #44 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 11:34 AM
The artistocrat didn't consider his slaves any different than a company CEO making millions today considers his 6$/hour employees. Is that evil?
@shu
Reply #45 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 12:04 PM
Reply #45 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 12:04 PM
It is evil for the one who suffers paxx, not for the instigator..
The worker, if his needs are not fulfilled, decides that the management is evil and strikes work. For him the strike is good.
But if the same worker is a shareholder in another company, which experiences a strike and (obviously) the share prices fall, he decides that the strike is evil..
The worker, if his needs are not fulfilled, decides that the management is evil and strikes work. For him the strike is good.
But if the same worker is a shareholder in another company, which experiences a strike and (obviously) the share prices fall, he decides that the strike is evil..
Bangkokboy
Reply #46 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 3:19 PM
Reply #46 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 3:19 PM
paxx - i hope that history will prove that you're overly pessimistic in #17. only time will tell, and i probably don't have enough time left to see the end of the story. 
IPlural
Reply #47 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 3:31 PM
Reply #47 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 3:31 PM
kids are evil, my wife is out of town and my daughter actually expects me to feed her!
.... bbl, food, and she wants to learn how to throw a left cross, jab and some basic snap kicks 
as she states, she is my girly-girl-tomboy aka Runt ! She popped a boy in the face for grabbing her butt in the lunch line last week, school called and I laughed and laughed and they hung up...
She really doesn't have a chance with the dresses and such yet, all the kids near us are boys two and three years older than her and she had to let them know she is as tough if not tougher than some so they wouldn't ignore her
I've heard the boys at different after school functions when she dresses up and I do her hair for her, a mother will say oh isn't Shelby so pretty, ah mom, she is not, thats Runt.. YUCK, Runt ain't pretty shes one of the guys.... in total disgust
oh, once when she was out front playing with a couple of the boys, I heard this un-natural screeching and crying, I ran outside thinking one of the boys had or was hurting her, she had the kid from next door, who was visiting from New York at his Grandparents, with him face down pushing his full face into the dirt telling him "Take it back" guess he said she should act like a girl and go find some to play with...
now thats evil
.... bbl, food, and she wants to learn how to throw a left cross, jab and some basic snap kicks 
as she states, she is my girly-girl-tomboy aka Runt ! She popped a boy in the face for grabbing her butt in the lunch line last week, school called and I laughed and laughed and they hung up...
She really doesn't have a chance with the dresses and such yet, all the kids near us are boys two and three years older than her and she had to let them know she is as tough if not tougher than some so they wouldn't ignore her
I've heard the boys at different after school functions when she dresses up and I do her hair for her, a mother will say oh isn't Shelby so pretty, ah mom, she is not, thats Runt.. YUCK, Runt ain't pretty shes one of the guys.... in total disgust
oh, once when she was out front playing with a couple of the boys, I heard this un-natural screeching and crying, I ran outside thinking one of the boys had or was hurting her, she had the kid from next door, who was visiting from New York at his Grandparents, with him face down pushing his full face into the dirt telling him "Take it back" guess he said she should act like a girl and go find some to play with...
now thats evil
Elfkura
Reply #48 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 3:38 PM
Reply #48 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 3:38 PM
Dresses? What's that?
I'm 21, and my mother still has to drag me, kicking and screaming, to a dress shop to buy me a dress.
I'm 21, and my mother still has to drag me, kicking and screaming, to a dress shop to buy me a dress.
joetheblow
Reply #49 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 6:51 PM
Reply #49 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 6:51 PM
I know opinions and cultural differences can be one of the ways Good and Evil is decided, but what I am saying is what if it is not something to be decided on. It is what it is. Culture A at location B considers it good while culture C at location D considers it bad... but what is it really?
Some people who were slaves (very few) were treated very well and in some societies were considered humans (they was just born to be in thier socail position).
What I think is good or bad in someways only means I have 50% of a chance that I am right. The turth will always be the truth. Gravity will always be gravity whether we feel it is or not.
Some people who were slaves (very few) were treated very well and in some societies were considered humans (they was just born to be in thier socail position).
What I think is good or bad in someways only means I have 50% of a chance that I am right. The turth will always be the truth. Gravity will always be gravity whether we feel it is or not.
moshi
Reply #50 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 7:10 PM
Reply #50 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 7:10 PM
"Gravity will always be gravity ..."
you should study math or some engineering that requires higher math. you wouldn´t be so sure then.
you should study math or some engineering that requires higher math. you wouldn´t be so sure then.
joetheblow
Reply #51 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 8:06 PM
Reply #51 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 8:06 PM
Really?? I am really interested in Math... especailly when it goes into theory. Not interested enough to find out anything but interested non the less.
Maybe I should say a rose by any other name would smell just as sweet.... as long as it is in the same state of matter.
Duid you know when gases get super heated it turns into plasma? Wouldn't that be the 4th state of matter?
Maybe I should say a rose by any other name would smell just as sweet.... as long as it is in the same state of matter.
Duid you know when gases get super heated it turns into plasma? Wouldn't that be the 4th state of matter?
Bangkokboy
Reply #52 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 8:30 PM
Reply #52 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 8:30 PM
paxx - when i was 8 years old ( many decades ago), i saw a black woman who came to my grandmother's house referred to go around and come in the back door. when queried, all of the adults i asked assured me that this was fine, i was too young to understand, nothing was amiss. a small voice inside somewhere told me that they were wrong, even though they obviously believed what they were saying, and did not normally lie to me. i knew better than to challenge them aloud, but remained absolutely convinced that they ( my entire family! ) had to be mistaken. there is such a thing as true conscience, but you'll only hear it if you actively seek to. you can argue the existence and definition of good/evil all day. i do believe that a conscience exists, and more importantly that it's not always just a mirror of what family/society told you. the first time my dad saw me walking outside with a cigarette lighter, he didn't feel the necessity to tell me not to burn down the neighbor's house.
paxx
Reply #53 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 9:24 PM
Reply #53 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 9:24 PM
Bangkokboy: when I was a kid, I wanted to have a lion as a pet.
In your example, your child opinion happened to be correct with today's standards. But I'm sure there were other things you thought were right, that actually weren't - here and now, that is. Maybe you thought that drawing on the wall was cool? Maybe you didn't understand what was wrong with steeling a chocolate bar from the store? Maybe you thought it was OK to punch your friend in the face?
Anyway, growing up is about shaping your beliefs. You develop your own, then you get influenced (tought) by your family and friends. And TV and books.
Carl Joung, a 19th century phychanalyst, said that everybody is both good and bad. That you learn to alienate the evil in you, but that it's always there. Sometimes it comes out in your dreamsn, sometimes in comes out when you do drugs or alcohol. Sometimes people just crack up and let all the evil in them out. We call them psycopaths or nuts. But the fact is, what an evil person is, or a psychopath, is simply that he#she doesn't behave the way he is expected to behave in his society/world. That's it.
Do not misunderstand me. I am not saying that everything goes. That there is no such thing as good or bad. Of course there is such a thing. But what I am saying is that very concept changes in time and in places.
Some people believe that eating pork is evil. Some people believe that dancing is an act of the Devil. Some people believe that novels corrupt your mind and is also evil for that. Some people believe that women showing their face in public is evil.
What is REALLY good or bad? the answer is simple: what YOU beleive is. But understand and respect that the guy on the other of the globe may also think that something else is good or evil. And that too is REAL.
In your example, your child opinion happened to be correct with today's standards. But I'm sure there were other things you thought were right, that actually weren't - here and now, that is. Maybe you thought that drawing on the wall was cool? Maybe you didn't understand what was wrong with steeling a chocolate bar from the store? Maybe you thought it was OK to punch your friend in the face?
Anyway, growing up is about shaping your beliefs. You develop your own, then you get influenced (tought) by your family and friends. And TV and books.
Carl Joung, a 19th century phychanalyst, said that everybody is both good and bad. That you learn to alienate the evil in you, but that it's always there. Sometimes it comes out in your dreamsn, sometimes in comes out when you do drugs or alcohol. Sometimes people just crack up and let all the evil in them out. We call them psycopaths or nuts. But the fact is, what an evil person is, or a psychopath, is simply that he#she doesn't behave the way he is expected to behave in his society/world. That's it.
Do not misunderstand me. I am not saying that everything goes. That there is no such thing as good or bad. Of course there is such a thing. But what I am saying is that very concept changes in time and in places.
Some people believe that eating pork is evil. Some people believe that dancing is an act of the Devil. Some people believe that novels corrupt your mind and is also evil for that. Some people believe that women showing their face in public is evil.
What is REALLY good or bad? the answer is simple: what YOU beleive is. But understand and respect that the guy on the other of the globe may also think that something else is good or evil. And that too is REAL.
paxx
Reply #54 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 9:30 PM
Reply #54 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 9:30 PM
Correction, it's Carl Jung, and although he wa born in the 19th century, he lived mostly in the early 20th century.
@shu
Reply #55 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 9:50 PM
Reply #55 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 9:50 PM
Exactly what I wanted to say Paxx. But I couldn't have put it so well.
IPlural
Reply #56 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 11:06 PM
Reply #56 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 11:06 PM
Jung good read, Fraud is ok.. grates on my nerves though with his drunking cocaine induced enlightenment and insight into the fact that everyone want to boff their mum, and if feamle wants to trade equipment if only for a few moments, ingrate...
paxx, you and others might like to take a look at:
Social Cognition; making sense of people
by: Ziva Kunda from MIT...
exceprt:
"
This book is divided into three sections.
The first focuses on "basic processes" in social cognition. It reviews research on concept representation, rules of inference, memory, *hot* cognition, and atuomatic processing.
The second section focuses on three basic topics in social cognition: group sterotypes, knowledge of other individuals, and the self.
The final chapter revisits many of the issues discussed in the book from a cross-cultrual perspective.
"
It is actually 558 pages of small type and a total of 11 chapters between the three choice of topics breaking the whole process down in each..
anyway...
very good read, so is the Dali Lamas "A new Ethic for a New Millinium"
paxx, you and others might like to take a look at:
Social Cognition; making sense of people
by: Ziva Kunda from MIT...
exceprt:
"
This book is divided into three sections.
The first focuses on "basic processes" in social cognition. It reviews research on concept representation, rules of inference, memory, *hot* cognition, and atuomatic processing.
The second section focuses on three basic topics in social cognition: group sterotypes, knowledge of other individuals, and the self.
The final chapter revisits many of the issues discussed in the book from a cross-cultrual perspective.
"
It is actually 558 pages of small type and a total of 11 chapters between the three choice of topics breaking the whole process down in each..
anyway...
very good read, so is the Dali Lamas "A new Ethic for a New Millinium"
Bangkokboy
Reply #57 Thursday, March 6, 2003 1:27 AM
Reply #57 Thursday, March 6, 2003 1:27 AM
paxx - i agree for the most part with what you're saying, and i'm not debating any points. i do think that what we're taught mixes with what we are by nature, and what we're taught doesn't always win. i guess i'd like to believe that when we evaluate alternatives seeking the best, what others told us is not the only tool in the toolbox.
i guess i'd like to believe that when we evaluate alternatives seeking the best, what others told us is not the only tool in the toolbox.
joetheblow
Reply #58 Thursday, March 6, 2003 9:12 PM
Reply #58 Thursday, March 6, 2003 9:12 PM
Carl Joung, a 19th century phychanalyst, said that everybody is both good and bad. That you learn to alienate the evil in you, but that it's always there. Sometimes it comes out in your dreamsn, sometimes in comes out when you do drugs or alcohol. Sometimes people just crack up and let all the evil in them out. We call them psycopaths or nuts. But the fact is, what an evil person is, or a psychopath, is simply that he#she doesn't behave the way he is expected to behave in his society/world. That's it.
Partly this is what I mean when I think Good has an ability to seek itself out or ultimatly over come becuase it is a balance between right and wrong and doing right. Evil only has on side and it is to do bad. Something or someone can have more of one than the other.
In the end I think Good and Evil is part of the universal element. We do not fully understand it and in the misunderstanding of these 2 elements we place our own feeling as to what is Good or evil. It doesn't mean we are right or wrong. It can be cultural or it can be something inside that says this is wrong. There were slave who thought they should be slaves and that is it. They might even fight against those who would rather be free. (This has happened by the way for many reasons.)
I think as humans we are looking for a way to understand what Good and evil is. History is basically our journey as to how we presive those elements.
But the bottom line will always be that something is fundumentally wrong and something is fundementally right. It is up to us to see it and there are many possibilities that we will be wrong.
Partly this is what I mean when I think Good has an ability to seek itself out or ultimatly over come becuase it is a balance between right and wrong and doing right. Evil only has on side and it is to do bad. Something or someone can have more of one than the other.
In the end I think Good and Evil is part of the universal element. We do not fully understand it and in the misunderstanding of these 2 elements we place our own feeling as to what is Good or evil. It doesn't mean we are right or wrong. It can be cultural or it can be something inside that says this is wrong. There were slave who thought they should be slaves and that is it. They might even fight against those who would rather be free. (This has happened by the way for many reasons.)
I think as humans we are looking for a way to understand what Good and evil is. History is basically our journey as to how we presive those elements.
But the bottom line will always be that something is fundumentally wrong and something is fundementally right. It is up to us to see it and there are many possibilities that we will be wrong.
joetheblow
Reply #59 Thursday, March 6, 2003 9:22 PM
Reply #59 Thursday, March 6, 2003 9:22 PM
oh and good read paxx. And I also understand what you mean IPlural. I think some acts of a child are really just acts of a child (painting on a wall, taking a piece of yummy chocolate). One time I iron the floor to see if I could get the rinkals out of it. I also did it to see what would happen. After I did it I know I was wrong and in trouble. ALLOT of trouble.
While both paxx and Iplural can make very good arguing point to either side for my action as a child but fundimentally my actions mostly had to do with the want of knowledge and to see what would happen. Was it bad to iron the floor? Was it good?
I think the key here is knowledge and the want of it or the lack of it that can turn something into a bad or good thing. Accumulated knowledge makes it some what easier to determain what is Good or Evil.
I do belive that ultimately totally knowledge will lean very much on the side of Good.
While both paxx and Iplural can make very good arguing point to either side for my action as a child but fundimentally my actions mostly had to do with the want of knowledge and to see what would happen. Was it bad to iron the floor? Was it good?
I think the key here is knowledge and the want of it or the lack of it that can turn something into a bad or good thing. Accumulated knowledge makes it some what easier to determain what is Good or Evil.
I do belive that ultimately totally knowledge will lean very much on the side of Good.
paxx
Reply #60 Thursday, March 6, 2003 10:51 PM
Reply #60 Thursday, March 6, 2003 10:51 PM
But what is fundamentally wrong?
If I tell you that I don't believe in God. If I tell you that I think that Men invented God out of insecurity, to answer questions that had no answer and being afraid of facing the truth.
If I tell you that there is no heaven, nor hell.
Will you call me evil because of my beliefs? Some people would.
A lot of people did. Hell of a lot of heretics got burned for being evil because they didn't share the same beliefs.
But yeah, up to a point I almost agree. There are some things that are absolutely wrong, or evil. And all of those things have to do with mistreating, hurting, killing another humain being. Where the difference lies is in the interpretation of what mistreating human beings is.
Concretely: The US are about to drop thousands of bombs on civilian Iraqees. President Bush says that Good is on his side, and Saddam is Evil. On the other hand, a lot of people are saying that the Evil that we're about to discover is not in Iraq. I heard some people actually say that Bush was the anti-Christ.
No, Evil si not so easy to judge.
If I tell you that I don't believe in God. If I tell you that I think that Men invented God out of insecurity, to answer questions that had no answer and being afraid of facing the truth.
If I tell you that there is no heaven, nor hell.
Will you call me evil because of my beliefs? Some people would.
A lot of people did. Hell of a lot of heretics got burned for being evil because they didn't share the same beliefs.
But yeah, up to a point I almost agree. There are some things that are absolutely wrong, or evil. And all of those things have to do with mistreating, hurting, killing another humain being. Where the difference lies is in the interpretation of what mistreating human beings is.
Concretely: The US are about to drop thousands of bombs on civilian Iraqees. President Bush says that Good is on his side, and Saddam is Evil. On the other hand, a lot of people are saying that the Evil that we're about to discover is not in Iraq. I heard some people actually say that Bush was the anti-Christ.
No, Evil si not so easy to judge.
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Reply #41 Wednesday, March 5, 2003 9:47 AM
Were you born an ancient Greek aristocrat, for example, you'd have a few slaves serving you, and feel no guilt about it.