the fall of customize?
Wednesday, April 24, 2002 by John Hamp | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
When I first discovered winamp skins I went to a site called customize.org. Then I went to skinz when cust dissapeared. But since cust has come back its become a haven for l33ts. What's the deal there? Whose in charge of the zoo there? Its just wallpapers and screenshots and they constantly attack Stardock's stuff. I read on deskmod the wb3 announcement and the cust admins were on attacking it there. Then on cust itself they attack it some more. What kind of skin site has admins that bad mouth new releases of the software they support on their site?
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Doreen
Reply #122 Monday, April 29, 2002 5:02 PM
Reply #122 Monday, April 29, 2002 5:02 PM
nah in about 5 more mins everyone will be telling "me" to shut the F*** up and leave... hehe
no I know nothing, cept I love skinning alot and hate to see a mess on skinning related stuff
The more sites the better, though there is always bound to be conflict here and there cuz it's natural, some conflicts get "alittle" out of control.
no I know nothing, cept I love skinning alot and hate to see a mess on skinning related stuff
The more sites the better, though there is always bound to be conflict here and there cuz it's natural, some conflicts get "alittle" out of control.
JanusXP
Reply #123 Monday, April 29, 2002 5:08 PM
Reply #123 Monday, April 29, 2002 5:08 PM
I disagree about the more sites the better. Let's not forget quality over quantity.
Doreen
Reply #124 Monday, April 29, 2002 5:10 PM
Reply #124 Monday, April 29, 2002 5:10 PM
I'm an optomistic I like quanity and quality together
It's possible believe me...
It's possible believe me...
Frogboy
Reply #125 Monday, April 29, 2002 5:38 PM
Reply #125 Monday, April 29, 2002 5:38 PM
Doreen, whether you or I like it or not, society works on consensus. Many good hearted people try to avoid conflict by re-defining terms such as "success" and "failure" to be so vague as to be meaningless.
But as a society, there is a consensus on these terms. Trying to ignore that people have a general agreement of what "thriving" is just burying ones head in the sand. Customize is not thriving. And while one can argue all day that the term "thriving" is subjective, in the real world, people have to deal with the fact that life works via consensus. A site that gets only a handful of actual skins uploaded per week (rest are all screenshots and wallpapers) when the other sites (like Deskmod which is sort of a Customize + improvements in its basic design philosophy) are doing far better in every category demonstrates this.
Life is graded on a curve, darwn. You can't just shrug off what people are saying as "these are your rules". It's like back in the 70's when people were trying to rebel against "the man". Well, in real life, "the man" is society and it determines what is and isn't acceptable. Those that don't accept that are doomed for failure. And while some may try to redefine "failure" to be meaninglessly vague, most rational people know failure when they see it.
There is no way to spin the fact that customize.org has fallen and that it's fall is reasonably simple to figure out - the admins have driven away the contributing members of the community by their behavior.
Custo's motto can be summed up by what a user said there (without irony): "If you submit sh*t, you should expect to take sh*t." That seems to be the attitude of the admins. I agree that they have the right to do whatever they want. No one is arguing against that. But they seem to want to avoid the consequences of their actions. The lack of activity there is a consequence of their actions. Actions they freely took.
Ultimately, any successful site is the result of the hard work of lots of different people. No site is an island.
The more contributing people who drive away, the worse off your site is. And on a skin site that is paid for by banner ads, driving away the people who bring the people is bad business. While they attemped to generalize all of Stardock based on their personal dislike for me and tried to argue that it was "damaging our business" (which it certainly isn't statistically) I think a healthy case could be made that their actions have damaged their business financially in a very real way in the form of lost traffic due to lack of activity.
I suppose I could just post the skin submission, download, and message boards stats of every site for the past month (we do monitor this stuff) but I think anyone who's remotely familiar with the various skin sites knows that it's not necessary, custo has slipped further and further behind the other sites. They're free to act as they want, but the results speak for themselves. I personally find it sad that the site got hijacked by a bunch of self-destructive who apparently are out of touch with societal norms. If they behave in real life as they do on their site, I predict they'll have a fairly grim future.
But as a society, there is a consensus on these terms. Trying to ignore that people have a general agreement of what "thriving" is just burying ones head in the sand. Customize is not thriving. And while one can argue all day that the term "thriving" is subjective, in the real world, people have to deal with the fact that life works via consensus. A site that gets only a handful of actual skins uploaded per week (rest are all screenshots and wallpapers) when the other sites (like Deskmod which is sort of a Customize + improvements in its basic design philosophy) are doing far better in every category demonstrates this.
Life is graded on a curve, darwn. You can't just shrug off what people are saying as "these are your rules". It's like back in the 70's when people were trying to rebel against "the man". Well, in real life, "the man" is society and it determines what is and isn't acceptable. Those that don't accept that are doomed for failure. And while some may try to redefine "failure" to be meaninglessly vague, most rational people know failure when they see it.
There is no way to spin the fact that customize.org has fallen and that it's fall is reasonably simple to figure out - the admins have driven away the contributing members of the community by their behavior.
Custo's motto can be summed up by what a user said there (without irony): "If you submit sh*t, you should expect to take sh*t." That seems to be the attitude of the admins. I agree that they have the right to do whatever they want. No one is arguing against that. But they seem to want to avoid the consequences of their actions. The lack of activity there is a consequence of their actions. Actions they freely took.
Ultimately, any successful site is the result of the hard work of lots of different people. No site is an island.
The more contributing people who drive away, the worse off your site is. And on a skin site that is paid for by banner ads, driving away the people who bring the people is bad business. While they attemped to generalize all of Stardock based on their personal dislike for me and tried to argue that it was "damaging our business" (which it certainly isn't statistically) I think a healthy case could be made that their actions have damaged their business financially in a very real way in the form of lost traffic due to lack of activity. I suppose I could just post the skin submission, download, and message boards stats of every site for the past month (we do monitor this stuff) but I think anyone who's remotely familiar with the various skin sites knows that it's not necessary, custo has slipped further and further behind the other sites. They're free to act as they want, but the results speak for themselves. I personally find it sad that the site got hijacked by a bunch of self-destructive who apparently are out of touch with societal norms. If they behave in real life as they do on their site, I predict they'll have a fairly grim future.
grayhaze
Reply #126 Monday, April 29, 2002 5:55 PM
Reply #126 Monday, April 29, 2002 5:55 PM
Let's just end the thread there now.
darwn23, resist the urge to respond.
Brad, resist the urge to defend.
All that needs to be said has been said.
Nobody even post to agree or disagree with me.
Let the thread fade into the depths of the board.
Please.
darwn23, resist the urge to respond.
Brad, resist the urge to defend.
All that needs to be said has been said.
Nobody even post to agree or disagree with me.
Let the thread fade into the depths of the board.
Please.
Doreen
Reply #127 Monday, April 29, 2002 6:08 PM
Reply #127 Monday, April 29, 2002 6:08 PM
Brad in my real life I "definetly" know right from wrong and I also know there is no "in between" when speaking of that particular subject...
however we ARE talking about a web site and the net right?
when it comes to the net and speaking about skinning web sites I do become more optomistic cuz things "can't" be controlled so easily and anything is possible and so is the outcome w/ so many factors involved, so it's not just cut and dry like in real life...
What you determine as success may be totally diff from what Custo determines as their success, maybe they want only a handful of submissions cuz "they" do not have stardock's money to back them right therefore maybe they're not capable of handling more then what they get. (They don't want a billion uploads or tons of traffic)
If you ever did like custo as much as you said you did, then why not try to be aggressive in trying to reshape the site by working w/ it despite the fact that ppl are talking you down?
If you guys keep suggesting all the "better skinners" to back away from it surely the site will go under and you will have been a small part of what you did not want to happen right?
I "never" justified what ppl are saying Brad, I do know the diff between right and wrong, but there are different ways to handling the talk one is just realizing we all have our opinions, just wanted to clarify that.
and if you stick around long enough on a site sometimes other ppl finally understand "your" opinion it just takes time...
however we ARE talking about a web site and the net right?
when it comes to the net and speaking about skinning web sites I do become more optomistic cuz things "can't" be controlled so easily and anything is possible and so is the outcome w/ so many factors involved, so it's not just cut and dry like in real life...
What you determine as success may be totally diff from what Custo determines as their success, maybe they want only a handful of submissions cuz "they" do not have stardock's money to back them right therefore maybe they're not capable of handling more then what they get. (They don't want a billion uploads or tons of traffic)
If you ever did like custo as much as you said you did, then why not try to be aggressive in trying to reshape the site by working w/ it despite the fact that ppl are talking you down?
If you guys keep suggesting all the "better skinners" to back away from it surely the site will go under and you will have been a small part of what you did not want to happen right?
I "never" justified what ppl are saying Brad, I do know the diff between right and wrong, but there are different ways to handling the talk one is just realizing we all have our opinions, just wanted to clarify that.
and if you stick around long enough on a site sometimes other ppl finally understand "your" opinion it just takes time...
Doreen
Reply #129 Monday, April 29, 2002 6:28 PM
Reply #129 Monday, April 29, 2002 6:28 PM
hehe darwn
and Brad is gonna out type me anyways
So I will leave this subject alone now I promise...
Goodluck guys
and Brad is gonna out type me anyways
So I will leave this subject alone now I promise...
Goodluck guys
darwn23
Reply #130 Monday, April 29, 2002 6:32 PM
Reply #130 Monday, April 29, 2002 6:32 PM
but only because frogboy seems like the type to want to be the one with the last word and never humble himself and i dont have time. I would rather work on my upcoming style xp theme
JayG
Reply #131 Monday, April 29, 2002 6:39 PM
Reply #131 Monday, April 29, 2002 6:39 PM
darwn, i don't know who you are but you sure do seem to be going out of your way to be hostile. since fb quit custo and let the thugs there keep bashing him for days afterwards ya can't say he seems like the type that needs to have the last words. open your mind.
doreen: me thinks fb's point was you said that customize is 'thriving' when it clearly isn't. maybe ethiopia is doing great because maybe they want people to starve to lower their population and that is their goal. so ethiopia is a success. please.
doreen: me thinks fb's point was you said that customize is 'thriving' when it clearly isn't. maybe ethiopia is doing great because maybe they want people to starve to lower their population and that is their goal. so ethiopia is a success. please.
Jafo
Reply #132 Monday, April 29, 2002 6:42 PM
Reply #132 Monday, April 29, 2002 6:42 PM
Just one little statement of reality-check....
It is unlikely, if not unwise, for any self-respecting skinner/contributor who has felt him/herself slighted by events unravelling on Customize.org to re-upload their work there again until the site's coding is in place to enable their personal control of their submissions....editing and deleting MUST be accessible to the contributor.
Irrespective of administrative contrition, Custo still does not afford this most basic of contributor courtesy.
It 'was' going to be implemented.....still waiting....
It is unlikely, if not unwise, for any self-respecting skinner/contributor who has felt him/herself slighted by events unravelling on Customize.org to re-upload their work there again until the site's coding is in place to enable their personal control of their submissions....editing and deleting MUST be accessible to the contributor.
Irrespective of administrative contrition, Custo still does not afford this most basic of contributor courtesy.
It 'was' going to be implemented.....still waiting....
John Hamp
Reply #133 Monday, April 29, 2002 6:56 PM
Reply #133 Monday, April 29, 2002 6:56 PM
hypocrite. That's a word that gets thrown about too losely. How is this discussion any different than ones on Cust? Easy. You can have a disenting opinion here and not be told by admins of the site to 'shut the hell up and go away!' as I've seen there. You can give an opinion that is contrary to the admins and the admins and others users here will try to explain their POV instead of flame you. All it takes for evil to triumph is for a few good people to stand idly by. Cust aint evil. It's petty, not evil...it aint good to excuse terrible behavior. It's not good for the attacked and it's not good for the attackers.
Doreen
Reply #134 Monday, April 29, 2002 7:06 PM
Reply #134 Monday, April 29, 2002 7:06 PM
shoot now I'm beaking my promises again... *sigh*
No JayG I said:
point is they "prob" will still thrive... they just have their own flavor that's all
who knows what will happen? but one thing I do know for sures is that Brad and Jafo and David DO really seem to care about Custo or all these words would not have been typed and they said they remember the old custo and such
(me I faguely remember it but I did visit it I know that for sures)
therefore if you do care about the site, maybe help try to reshape it by not letting a few bad words chase you away from what you believe is worth the hassel of something you enjoy???
I totally agree w/ Jafo though that you need to have an "Edit & Delete" button on any skinning site cuz you should have that right to remove your skins at your own will.
I don't have my stuff uploaded there so I did not know that.
No JayG I said:
point is they "prob" will still thrive... they just have their own flavor that's all
who knows what will happen? but one thing I do know for sures is that Brad and Jafo and David DO really seem to care about Custo or all these words would not have been typed and they said they remember the old custo and such
(me I faguely remember it but I did visit it I know that for sures)
therefore if you do care about the site, maybe help try to reshape it by not letting a few bad words chase you away from what you believe is worth the hassel of something you enjoy???
I totally agree w/ Jafo though that you need to have an "Edit & Delete" button on any skinning site cuz you should have that right to remove your skins at your own will.
I don't have my stuff uploaded there so I did not know that.
Doreen
Reply #135 Monday, April 29, 2002 7:16 PM
Reply #135 Monday, April 29, 2002 7:16 PM
I'm not so sure it is possible to not be a hypocrite on earth... hehe
I think we all are
I think we all are
adni18
Reply #136 Monday, April 29, 2002 8:01 PM
Reply #136 Monday, April 29, 2002 8:01 PM
As more you pay attention to something you don't like, you make it stronger! The lack of the attention makes it weaker.
So..."As far as possible without surrender be on good terms with all persons. Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even the dull and ignorant; they too have their story".
So..."As far as possible without surrender be on good terms with all persons. Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even the dull and ignorant; they too have their story".
darwn23
Reply #137 Monday, April 29, 2002 8:31 PM
Reply #137 Monday, April 29, 2002 8:31 PM
lol now my comments are hostile.. so if its not something where i'm bashing custo its considered hostile
gee.. you guys are hillarious, you soo closed minded to see that you fuel this fire, no its blazing and going to burn burn burn
gee.. you guys are hillarious, you soo closed minded to see that you fuel this fire, no its blazing and going to burn burn burn
darwn23
Reply #138 Monday, April 29, 2002 8:34 PM
Reply #138 Monday, April 29, 2002 8:34 PM
you guys like to argue anyway so im giving you what you want, but im not being hostile about it, im just voicing my opinions. You guys came in hordes to custo to back Frogboy, and its only me over here because no one else likes this site and they stay away
darwn23
Reply #139 Monday, April 29, 2002 8:52 PM
Reply #139 Monday, April 29, 2002 8:52 PM
do the right thing and close the thread Frogboy..
shut it down
shut it down
DavidK
Reply #140 Monday, April 29, 2002 9:22 PM
Reply #140 Monday, April 29, 2002 9:22 PM
actually I'm not sure we can "lock" a thread here. All we can do (that I know of) is delete threads or comments. It will stop when people stop posting to it. Here's a story for you darwn...
Two Bhuddist monks were walking down the street when they saw a beautiful geisha standing in front of a huge puddle of water. One of the monks picked her up and carried her to the other side of the puddle and put her down.
About two miles later the other monk couldn't stand it any longer and burst out at his companion "How could you do that! You know we monks are not allowed to touch women!"
The other monk looked at his friend and said "I put her down a long time ago, it looks like you're the one that's still carrying her."
Two Bhuddist monks were walking down the street when they saw a beautiful geisha standing in front of a huge puddle of water. One of the monks picked her up and carried her to the other side of the puddle and put her down.
About two miles later the other monk couldn't stand it any longer and burst out at his companion "How could you do that! You know we monks are not allowed to touch women!"
The other monk looked at his friend and said "I put her down a long time ago, it looks like you're the one that's still carrying her."
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Reply #121 Monday, April 29, 2002 4:54 PM
Maximillian