Me too.

I've served and I never saw any evidence of what chris suggested.

Are there casualties among civilians...yes and on both sides.

Is Hamas evil. Without a doubt.

Is Israel or the IDF evil? I have no evidence supporting that. I have, however seen plenty of evidence that when encountered, wrongdoers are punished.

"good" and "evil" are VERY subjective terms... I wouldn't trust you to know that any more than I trust myself to know it (which is not very much, I try to get as much fact as possible, but realise I'm probably nowhere near being educated enough to judge it)....

I'll give you an example:

I give you a free Coca Cola... Wow I'm nice, and seem "good".... BUT I did it because I know it'll cause you issues with your teeth because of all the sugar... That would make the same act "evil"...

Or if we want to go even further... Religious people look away.... Consider this:

God is "good", creator of the world and all... The Devil is "evil" because he wants to undo the creation... Simple enough? Not really.. Because what if the truth is this: God created the universe to be a prison for our souls, creating "reality TV" for his personal enjoyment... We have no idea, but we're trapped in this eternal cycle of rebirth, unable to fulfil our true purpose in a higher realm. Suddenly the Devil is not evil because he wants to tear down our prison, and free us so we can achieve our full potential...

I don't believe in good and evil, I believe in cause and effect... I believe it's reflected in my posts throughout this thread (and elsewhere).

1) You are afraid of the agenda of strangers who exist on the other half of the globe and how they could harm you and your family.
2)  You do not believe your govenment is doing all it can to protect you and your family.
3)  You do not believe there are any innocents who are encompassed in "the radical Islamic movement."
4)  You believe the only answer to radical Islam, and the only answer to the threat that movement poses to you and your family is the utter destruction of Islam.

I am not fan of Islam.  As I've repeatedly said, I am no fan of any religion.  Particularly with Islam, I believe it takes all the vile aspects of the other Abrahamic religions and pumps them up on steroids (shows an overall disrespect and hatred for the joys of life and  sex, the autonomy of women, and the basic integrity of the human will).   My position is, if there were some way of destroying Islam, it would only be a matter of time before the same would have to happen to Christianity and Judaism.  Everything you loathe about Islam, could be said about Christianity during the time of the conquest of America.  Columbus came to the Americas and wiped out the natives he couldn't enslave, and yet...here in this country we HONOR that with a federal holiday!  Our early government destroyed a majority of the native population that existed relatively peacefully in this country until the Europeans came, and then displaced the remaining ones on land that wasn't worth anything, corraled them like horses and fenced them in....took their sacred places and defiled them with engraved images of the very men that enacted genocide against them (the Black Hills are sacred to the Souix....but we call it "patriotism" to glance at Mount Rushmore.  That would be like engraving Hitler's mug on a synogogue and calling it holy!)

The guts of this issue isn't about a belief system -- its about power and money and control, and destroying whatever flavor of the week that happens to fit the bill will never totally annihilate the guts of the issue.  You can't kill this thing...you're going to have to transform it.

I have seen plenty of evidence that when encountered, innocents are punished too... Do you really think they should just stand back and accept whatever the outcome?

Labeling them "evil" has never sat too well with me. It gives them an edge as if they were unearthly and something to be feared. They win!

That is line one of the lesson book entitled, "Cultural Relativism"

"A Guide For The Confused":

1. You Shall Treat Others As Your Equals And Demand The Same.

2. You Shall Treat Others As You Would Be Treated.

3, You Shall Not: deny someone else's right to live in peace. 

4. Screw up at your own risk.

Any problems with that? Simple enough?

You have different values than those?

Is there a decent human being anywhere that has a problem with these Principles of Human Conduct For The Confused?

Zero Tolerance for people who abrogate those principles. Screw up at your own risk. 

Someone as biased as you quoting: "You Shall Treat Others As Your Equals And Demand The Same".

This is worth about as much as a grain of sand. Probably less.

Imho that's a set of bullshit rules to live by.

Everyone is not the same, and as such noone is equal (it doesn't make it right to assign different "worth" to people, we all have equal right to our lives). Zero tolerance for those who don't think like you do is hardly right....

I will NOT treat others as I would be treated, because I most definetely don't agree with everyones way they want to be treated. I know for certain that not very many want to be treated the way I like to be (with absolute honesty).

As for not deny someone else's right to live in peace, it's like saying I have to give in to any asshole storming into my life giving me hell unless I can oppose it quietly without interfering with any third party...

I prefer to live by my own base rule; To give everyone the same space for a free life as I wish to get from them...

HAHAHAHA

Live in Gaza.

Why it will never end? Because there aren't enough people around who won't take that sh@t, and put their foot down. HARD.

Adios. I've had enough of the futility of this. You can have the last word.

FWIW,  I could pick apart the cultural relativism points, and yes, I do have a few small problems with the Principles of Human Conduct for The Confused.  (They're over simplified and they aren't in line with the tenets of Naturalism, which state that the behavior of people is based on the causal connections in their biology, their history, their environment, or their chemistry.)

You see your "enemies" as evil.  I see my "enemies" as sick.  Though euthanasia might be "the answer" we would both agree on for our enemies, mine wouldn't be done with vengence.

He lied...or is gullible. Gullible isn't an insult. Lying is an insult...to me, not him. If I'm ignorant, tell me so and/or educate me. No problem. It's not an insult Karen.

As for "it appears to me that you're being harsh to complete strangers here." I have repeated the same thing over and over and it's really not difficult to understand. Try reading what they say with my eyes. False videos, etc. "Be nice" where were these guys for the past 10 years while Israelis were bombed and killed? They didn't say a word that I've read. It's the double standard that galls me: When it happens to the Israelis it's ok...but not when it happens to Hamas. Well. I don't think so, and that at least is consistent with my "Rules" that were there to point to the fact that there IS right and wrong.

You think that Israeli papers are govenment rubber stamps. They aren't. Far from it. You've never read one, I'd wager. That's being ignorant. That's not an insult either. Ignorance is universal. There is much I am ignorant of. Yes, even with this topic...but Hamas is evil. It has no plans for recognizing other people's right to life or peace. The use of the word idiot is yours, not mine. I never used it. You should avail yourself of what I wrote and also, ignorance and idiocy are not equivalent.

I see Hamas as everyone's enemy...along with all the fanatics who think nothing of my life's work: Saving lives, and instead elect to treat them as nothing. Just because someone is my enemy doesn't make him sick or perverted. Having no regard for human life and the arrogance to take it does.

I reiterate: If Hamas  and it's ilk stops trying to shell/rocket and kill Israelis (and anyone else they don't agree with) I say live in peace. If not, then they can depart horizontally or vertically...makes no difference.

That's just common sense.

Here's some news from Europe:

Fears mount of Gaza conflict spill over in Europe
Tuesday, January 6, 2009 2:12 PM EST
The Associated Press
By JOHN LEICESTER Associated Press Writer


PARIS (AP) — Government officials and Jewish leaders are concerned the conflict in Gaza may spill over into violence in Europe, with attacks reported against Jews and synagogues in France, Sweden and Britain.

Assailants rammed a burning car into the gates of a synagogue in Toulouse, in southwest France, Monday night.

A Jewish congregation in Helsingborg, in southern Sweden, was attacked Monday night by someone who "broke a window and threw in something that was burning," said police spokesman Leif Nilsson. And on Sunday slogans, including "murderers ... You broke the cease-fire," were daubed on Israel's Embassy in Stockholm.

In Denmark, a 27-year-old Dane born in Lebanon to Palestinian parents is alleged to have injured two young Israelis last week in a shooting police suspect could be linked to the Gaza crisis. Belgium ordered police in Antwerp and Brussels to be on increased state of alert" Tuesday after recent pro-Palestinian protests ended in violence and arrests.

France has Western Europe's largest Jewish and Muslim communities and a history of anti-Semitic violence flaring when tensions in the Middle East are high. In 2002, some 2,300 Jews left France for Israel because they felt unsafe. Even in normal times, anti-Semitic incidents are not uncommon.

President Nicolas Sarkozy warned in a statement Tuesday that France would not tolerate violence linked to the Gaza crisis. A day earlier, his interior minister said she was concerned about the prospect of contagion and met with the heads of the two main Muslim and Jewish groups and police officials to stress the need to "preserve national unity."

Jews in the small Strasbourg suburb of Lingolsheim in eastern France woke up Tuesday to find graffiti with words like "assassins" spray-painted on the outside walls of their synagogue. The community filed a complaint for "degradation of a place of worship," the mayor's office said.

Damage to the synagogue in Toulouse was limited to a blackened gate. Police said unlighted gasoline bombs were found in a car nearby and in the synagogue's yard. A local Jewish leader, Armand Partouche, said he believed the assailants fled when the building's alarm went off.

Local authorities promised Tuesday to boost security for synagogues and other Jewish sites in the city, Partouche said.

"We really fear that anti-Semitism will spring up again and that the current conflict will be transposed to our beautiful French republic," Partouche said.

French Muslim leader Mohammed Moussaoui condemned the attack, saying no motive could justify an assault on any place of worship.

Interior Ministry spokesman Gerard Gachet said police have not noted an increase in violence against Jews linked to the Gaza crisis. But he said tensions are likely.

In Britain, the Community Security Trust, a Jewish defense group, said it had seen a rise in anti-Semitic incidents since the start of Israel's offensive against Gaza. The group said it recorded 20-25 incidents across the country in the past week — a sizable increase from 2-3 incidents usually reported to the group over the Christmas-New Year period.

Police are investigating an arson attempt Sunday on a synagogue in north London. Assailants splashed liquid on the door and set it on fire. Police would not speculate on whether the attack was linked to the Gaza crisis.

In another incident last week, a gang of 15-20 youths walked along the main street in Golders Green, a largely Jewish neighborhood in north London, shouting "Jew" and "Free Palestine" at passers-by, said Community Security Trust spokesman Mark Gardner.

All of those things are very terrible.  That doesn't mean they are all related, or all orchestrated by Hamas, or even that they are all as they appear to be.  Look:

French Muslim leader Mohammed Moussaoui condemned the attack, saying no motive could justify an assault on any place of worship. 

This guy isn't ordering the desecration (that or he's posing as righteous to protect his own butt, or for whatever reason wants to appear like he's not a bad guy).

Drj, people are going to find a million and one reasons to persuade you that someone who is hell bent on killing you ...isn't... or it's not their fault, or we're all to blame...

meanwhile... they are that much closer to killing you.. or someone else.

The saddest and bitterest part of that is that it's completely true.

AND:

It's "Why it will never end." 

I'm not really in fear for myself as I am for those that might have a lot more time on this planet, my youth is looong gone, I am however concerned for my children and my childrens children, I have 4 boys that aren't even men yet.. so if everyone doesn't mind, I'd like to express that everyone should be concerned about the threat to our world as a whole, you all can go about living day to day in denial and blaming everyone else it seems but the terrorists.

Its the same reason I dont drive like an asshole.. You take precaustions when you can, you stay aware of threats around you and you certainly don't walk up to an enemy and tell them.. oh it's ok to kill my family.. It's all our fault.

You kill them , before they kill you.

I find it quite disconcerting to see such tolerance and imo naivety of an obvious threat.

How many western homicide bombers have there been?

I think to boil it down.. you look at simple philosophy, We want peace, democracy, freemarkets. They want to wipe us off the map and murder every single one of as possible while killing themselves in the process.

How is this so unclear?

I don't live in fear, to old, seen to much and done a lot, but I do carry a pistol everywhere I go that the law allows.  I have a spare clip and 50 rounds in the glove box, just in case.  Am not paranoid, just careful.

Some people won't ever get it, vStyler...no matter what you say. That's why "It Will Never End".

As I said, read Heinlein's "Starship Troopers". It's nothing like the movie.