Getting into 3D skinning
Do you think it's coming?
Tuesday, March 20, 2007 by Frogboy | Discussion: Skinning
Programs like Adobe Photoshop, Illustrator, Corel, Paintshop Pro are pretty standard tools for most skinners.
But how many skinners are experts with programs like Maya and 3D Studio?
I ask this because one can imagine a day not so far in the future when skinning involves working with 3D Models.
In Windows Vista, Microsoft nearly had the Sidebar support DWM gadgets out of the box which used XAML and could be exported from 3D Studio as models. Imagine a true 3D object on your desktop for instance.
With Windows DreamScene and Stardock DeskScapes, for animated wallpaper, you can already see the demand for 3D rendered scenes (as opposed to just video files).
Do many, or even most, skinners who know 2D graphics design packages also have a familiarity with 3D modeling?
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cycoced
Reply #22 Wednesday, March 21, 2007 4:13 AM
Reply #22 Wednesday, March 21, 2007 4:13 AM
NightwingDragon, what I meant by "organic" is simple: By watching an icon created in 3D, one shouldn't be able to tell it has been created with a 3D app, just like special effects in movies, hence a loads**t of bump mapping, with a LOT of triangles for the model structure and natural looking patterns. Not impossible, but too much work for icons I think, especially if you do it for free.
Nonetheless, 3D icons that achieve this are incredibly beautiful.
Let's take an exemple here, Corinthia by D. Arnaez (excellent skinner):
https://www.wincustomize.com/zoom.aspx?skinid=1556&libid=2
To me, the REG or the Control Panel icons are very nice, and are a good use of a 3D tool, but the DVD or the Folder icons look too polished, too mechanical. It may be the expected effect, but I don't care too much for this kind of cold visual. Personal view of course!
Nonetheless, 3D icons that achieve this are incredibly beautiful.
Let's take an exemple here, Corinthia by D. Arnaez (excellent skinner):
https://www.wincustomize.com/zoom.aspx?skinid=1556&libid=2
To me, the REG or the Control Panel icons are very nice, and are a good use of a 3D tool, but the DVD or the Folder icons look too polished, too mechanical. It may be the expected effect, but I don't care too much for this kind of cold visual. Personal view of course!
vStyler
Reply #23 Wednesday, March 21, 2007 7:16 AM
Thats not entirely true..yes your screen is flat but u can see a 3D model in a wallpaper right? If Start menus, windows, etc are slightly angled a 3D looked can be acheived in an interface. If you dont think so.. stay tuned.
PixelPirate said it right, its the time thats needed to learn 3D apps that is the biggest obstacle, also I would think a person would benefit to be a skinner first and then learn 3D rather than established 3D artists becoming skinners.
One good use of 3D that i know of with respect to 3DMAX being used on WC are J. Aroche's Cursors. Very well done indeed.
Last thing.. Brainiac..that start menu is brilliant, you are a pure skinner in every sense of the word.
Reply #23 Wednesday, March 21, 2007 7:16 AM
why create anything 3d when you can only use it in 2d?
Thats not entirely true..yes your screen is flat but u can see a 3D model in a wallpaper right? If Start menus, windows, etc are slightly angled a 3D looked can be acheived in an interface. If you dont think so.. stay tuned.
PixelPirate said it right, its the time thats needed to learn 3D apps that is the biggest obstacle, also I would think a person would benefit to be a skinner first and then learn 3D rather than established 3D artists becoming skinners.
One good use of 3D that i know of with respect to 3DMAX being used on WC are J. Aroche's Cursors. Very well done indeed.
Last thing.. Brainiac..that start menu is brilliant, you are a pure skinner in every sense of the word.
cycoced
Reply #24 Wednesday, March 21, 2007 8:10 AM
Reply #24 Wednesday, March 21, 2007 8:10 AM
I noticed NightwingDragon talking about 2D Bevel, and it triggered something in me I wanted to discuss about: Do you guys outthere like bevel? I for one don't like this effect at all, it just doesn't look right when trying to give a 3D aspect to a 2D object. I for one use cut outs to get the desired effect, and I think it looks more real. What 2D skinning guys think about that? Should we prohibit the use of Bevel in the skinning world?
vStyler
Reply #25 Wednesday, March 21, 2007 8:16 AM
Reply #25 Wednesday, March 21, 2007 8:16 AM
Bevel will always have a place if used correctly.
cycoced
Reply #26 Wednesday, March 21, 2007 8:29 AM
Reply #26 Wednesday, March 21, 2007 8:29 AM
A place on the shelf?
Yes you are right, it has to be used correctly, and it can be a pain to master this effect (way too much options for me... I'm lazy). I just think that some people are using it a bit too much for their own good...
Yes you are right, it has to be used correctly, and it can be a pain to master this effect (way too much options for me... I'm lazy). I just think that some people are using it a bit too much for their own good...
vStyler
Reply #27 Wednesday, March 21, 2007 9:14 AM
Reply #27 Wednesday, March 21, 2007 9:14 AM
I just think that some people are using it a bit too much for their own good...
if used correctly.
Island Dog
Reply #28 Wednesday, March 21, 2007 11:22 AM
Reply #28 Wednesday, March 21, 2007 11:22 AM
When someone mentions a 3D Windowblinds skin for some reason an image of a rotating start menu comes to mind. I'd like to see some screenshots of other 3D skins and the concepts behind them.
ZubaZ
Reply #29 Wednesday, March 21, 2007 11:34 AM
Reply #29 Wednesday, March 21, 2007 11:34 AM
I miss some of the great animations in WB. I STILL like aquariium with fish swimming in the title bar.
Island Dog
Reply #30 Wednesday, March 21, 2007 12:43 PM
Agreed.
Reply #30 Wednesday, March 21, 2007 12:43 PM
I miss some of the great animations in WB. I STILL like aquariium with fish swimming in the title bar.
Agreed.
thomassen
Reply #31 Wednesday, March 21, 2007 3:00 PM
Reply #31 Wednesday, March 21, 2007 3:00 PM
I do 3D Max modelling and can't wait for 3D skinning to arrive.
I think there's quite a few people out there in the skinning community that uses 3D software. You often see graphics that's been rendered in 3D. Especially icons.
I think there's quite a few people out there in the skinning community that uses 3D software. You often see graphics that's been rendered in 3D. Especially icons.
-xino
Reply #32 Wednesday, March 21, 2007 3:15 PM
Thats not entirely true..yes your screen is flat but u can see a 3D model in a wallpaper right? If Start menus, windows, etc are slightly angled a 3D looked can be acheived in an interface. If you dont think so.. stay tuned.
PixelPirate said it right, its the time thats needed to learn 3D apps that is the biggest obstacle, also I would think a person would benefit to be a skinner first and then learn 3D rather than established 3D artists becoming skinners.
One good use of 3D that i know of with respect to 3DMAX being used on WC are J. Aroche's Cursors. Very well done indeed.
Last thing.. Brainiac..that start menu is brilliant, you are a pure skinner in every sense of the word.
actually I'm only talking about WB skinning, using it for icons, cursors and such has a great benefit. But there is no reason to use a 3d program to make a 2d surface for WB skins. Of course you can, but if you can't make it truly appear 3d in Photoshop, you're kidding yourself when it comes to 3d.
I've been using 3d Max, Rhino, softImage, and Maya since 1994 or so, and Photoshop before that. I do have experience in what some people are talking about here. If you can not truly benefit with a 3d start menu (for example) why not just create the same thing in Photoshop? It'll be faster to create and easier to change/tweak it. If you are a Photoshop guru (which you should be before trying to tackle a 3d application since we're talking about skinning here) then you can do the exact same thing in PS without all the hassle and the drawbacks.
Just because it's made in 3d doesn't make it instantly better. Learn the tools you have before you try and overstep your own skills. I'm not being a pessimist on purpose, but I know the limitations and soon other people will see them too.
One thing you can do, which I do alot, is create the model for it in 3d and then color, texture, overlay it all in PS. I currently am doing this with a media player skin. I modeled the buttons and the graphical display in Max, but I only did that to get the angles correct. Outside of perspective, there isn't a "good" reason to make it in 3d, unless you just want to cramp your brain and limit your creativity. It is so much easier/faster creating a 2d surface in PS as opposed to 3d. Plus you can get the exact same results if you know what you're doing.
Now when we can have a true 3d operating environment, 3d will be a necessity, but as of now, you're really only limiting yourself if you try to make a WB skin in 3d. If you don't believe me, go ahead and try it. In fact I would love to see the results, but this is just a warning from someone who has already tried it.
Reply #32 Wednesday, March 21, 2007 3:15 PM
why create anything 3d when you can only use it in 2d?
Thats not entirely true..yes your screen is flat but u can see a 3D model in a wallpaper right? If Start menus, windows, etc are slightly angled a 3D looked can be acheived in an interface. If you dont think so.. stay tuned.
PixelPirate said it right, its the time thats needed to learn 3D apps that is the biggest obstacle, also I would think a person would benefit to be a skinner first and then learn 3D rather than established 3D artists becoming skinners.
One good use of 3D that i know of with respect to 3DMAX being used on WC are J. Aroche's Cursors. Very well done indeed.
Last thing.. Brainiac..that start menu is brilliant, you are a pure skinner in every sense of the word.
actually I'm only talking about WB skinning, using it for icons, cursors and such has a great benefit. But there is no reason to use a 3d program to make a 2d surface for WB skins. Of course you can, but if you can't make it truly appear 3d in Photoshop, you're kidding yourself when it comes to 3d.
I've been using 3d Max, Rhino, softImage, and Maya since 1994 or so, and Photoshop before that. I do have experience in what some people are talking about here. If you can not truly benefit with a 3d start menu (for example) why not just create the same thing in Photoshop? It'll be faster to create and easier to change/tweak it. If you are a Photoshop guru (which you should be before trying to tackle a 3d application since we're talking about skinning here) then you can do the exact same thing in PS without all the hassle and the drawbacks.
Just because it's made in 3d doesn't make it instantly better. Learn the tools you have before you try and overstep your own skills. I'm not being a pessimist on purpose, but I know the limitations and soon other people will see them too.
One thing you can do, which I do alot, is create the model for it in 3d and then color, texture, overlay it all in PS. I currently am doing this with a media player skin. I modeled the buttons and the graphical display in Max, but I only did that to get the angles correct. Outside of perspective, there isn't a "good" reason to make it in 3d, unless you just want to cramp your brain and limit your creativity. It is so much easier/faster creating a 2d surface in PS as opposed to 3d. Plus you can get the exact same results if you know what you're doing.
Now when we can have a true 3d operating environment, 3d will be a necessity, but as of now, you're really only limiting yourself if you try to make a WB skin in 3d. If you don't believe me, go ahead and try it. In fact I would love to see the results, but this is just a warning from someone who has already tried it.
cycoced
Reply #33 Wednesday, March 21, 2007 4:26 PM
Reply #33 Wednesday, March 21, 2007 4:26 PM
Good post -Xino!
And I like the idea of creating the model with a 3D app, then use PhotoShop or PSP to texture it, I think that's the way to go for static icons.
When everything is 3D and animated, then it will be another story!
And I like the idea of creating the model with a 3D app, then use PhotoShop or PSP to texture it, I think that's the way to go for static icons.
When everything is 3D and animated, then it will be another story!
-xino
Reply #34 Wednesday, March 21, 2007 4:54 PM
Good post -Xino!
And I like the idea of creating the model with a 3D app, then use PhotoShop or PSP to texture it, I think that's the way to go for static icons.
When everything is 3D and animated, then it will be another story!
that's what I've done with my icons as well. you get great perspective with them and they don't look all funky. I absolutely loathe "3d" icons made in 2d programs with bad perspective. I refuse to even give them a second look.
Reply #34 Wednesday, March 21, 2007 4:54 PM
Good post -Xino!
And I like the idea of creating the model with a 3D app, then use PhotoShop or PSP to texture it, I think that's the way to go for static icons.
When everything is 3D and animated, then it will be another story!
that's what I've done with my icons as well. you get great perspective with them and they don't look all funky. I absolutely loathe "3d" icons made in 2d programs with bad perspective. I refuse to even give them a second look.
cycoced
Reply #35 Wednesday, March 21, 2007 5:07 PM
Reply #35 Wednesday, March 21, 2007 5:07 PM
Xino, I've check your WC page as well as your own web page, but I don't seem to be able to find a sample of an icon by you, I would love to see that, it sounds interesting! Do you have any exemple to share?
-xino
Reply #36 Wednesday, March 21, 2007 5:27 PM
Reply #36 Wednesday, March 21, 2007 5:27 PM
since WC doesn't have a work in progress area for uploading, I had to post it on DA. this is an old image, but I'm still working on the entire suite. work has kept me away from skinning for awhile unfortunately.
http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/20956608/
http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/20956608/
cycoced
Reply #37 Wednesday, March 21, 2007 6:03 PM
Reply #37 Wednesday, March 21, 2007 6:03 PM
Xino, that's excellent! I mean it.
Are you planning on creating an IP based on this visual?
Are you planning on creating an IP based on this visual?
vStyler
Reply #38 Wednesday, March 21, 2007 6:55 PM
Perhaps those are your limitations, speaking for myself, and without elaborating on my methods, I can see many reasons to use 3D technology in all areas of skinning..including but not limited to WB.
I respect your opinion but I like to think outside the box and just because you do not see a benefit in no way means I dont. I'm constantly learning old tools and new tools and I wont brush something off as useless just because someone else thinks it is.
Besides.. even If I can't pull something innovative off in WB, at least I tried and will have more experience for when we do skin for a true 3D environment than someone who chose to disregard it.
For my part I'll take a more positive path and encourage people to look into it on their own terms.. you never know what you can do until you try.
To each their own eh.
Reply #38 Wednesday, March 21, 2007 6:55 PM
but I know the limitations and soon other people will see them too.
Perhaps those are your limitations, speaking for myself, and without elaborating on my methods, I can see many reasons to use 3D technology in all areas of skinning..including but not limited to WB.
I respect your opinion but I like to think outside the box and just because you do not see a benefit in no way means I dont. I'm constantly learning old tools and new tools and I wont brush something off as useless just because someone else thinks it is.
Besides.. even If I can't pull something innovative off in WB, at least I tried and will have more experience for when we do skin for a true 3D environment than someone who chose to disregard it.
For my part I'll take a more positive path and encourage people to look into it on their own terms.. you never know what you can do until you try.
To each their own eh.
NightwingDragon
Reply #39 Wednesday, March 21, 2007 8:27 PM
Reply #39 Wednesday, March 21, 2007 8:27 PM
in response to Cycoced's comment about icons in modeling. (and no this is not intended to be an assault or anger derived...lol) The triangles you're referring to (or I think you're referring to) are called polygons. Polygons are what makes the model's surface what it is. If you're seeing those then they are not complete, OR it's an issue with UV Mapping. Bumps are usually caused by what's called a bump map, which is a form of texturing. The model can use several types of textures to simulate different effects. An example would be rust. If you want the rust to appear raised or indented you would apply a bump map, which is a desaturated gray scale version of the original texture map. The bump is utilized by the different levels of blacks being indents and whites or light being raised. The bump simulates a kind of transparency where tho the model's surface is smooth, will be made to appear rough by the bump. So it tricks you into thinking the surface degeneration is a part of the model's geometry. In reality the surface is as smooth as a baby's butt....lol. It's a difficult process to explain. As far as bevel is concerned almost every skin you will see has at least one example of a beveled edge, whether it's raised or sunken in. It adds the 3D appearence most ppl, including myself (bevel whore)....lol, are looking for. Without a bevel effect skins tend to appear flat. In some cases it's good, and fits, and others it just doesn't look right. I have made skins where almost everything possible is beveled...lol, yea I am insane. I think with the continuing hunger for ultra-realism 3D is sure to have a very welcome place in skinning. Think about how awesome it would look to open the OS and see legit 3D titlebars and buttons. Or to open the start menu and see something like Braniac's. With the refinement of skills toward not only skinning, but 3D, I believe we are very close to a dawning of a new era in unconventional 3D skinning being applied in a mass sense. I for one can't wait. Maya is an awesome app but it is NOT for the faint of heart, (causes severe nosebleeds, and massive anurisms)...lol. I personally use Rhino 3D for modeling, mainly because it's easier for me to NURBS model, but also because I've seen loads of ppl complain about it being impossible with organic modeling. It's just not true. Honestly if the propper surfacing techniques are applied, it's a very intuitive modeling app, and has no probs with organics.
-xino
Reply #40 Wednesday, March 21, 2007 8:37 PM
Xino, that's excellent! I mean it.
Are you planning on creating an IP based on this visual?
thank you and yes, it'll be a full icon pack.
Perhaps those are your limitations, speaking for myself, and without elaborating on my methods, I can see many reasons to use 3D technology in all areas of skinning..including but not limited to WB.
I respect your opinion but I like to think outside the box and just because you do not see a benefit in no way means I dont. I'm constantly learning old tools and new tools and I wont brush something off as useless just because someone else thinks it is.
Besides.. even If I can't pull something innovative off in WB, at least I tried and will have more experience for when we do skin for a true 3D environment than someone who chose to disregard it.
For my part I'll take a more positive path and encourage people to look into it on their own terms.. you never know what you can do until you try.
To each their own eh.
you seem to be reading more into my words than what is actually there. re-read my posts without thinking I'm cynical and you'll see I'm only typing about the truth of the matter. You seem to think I'm talking about all skinning, but I have stated several times, I'm only talking about WB. Also, until you can truly use PS and make it look 3d, like IR Brainiac did in PS (without any need for any 3d program mind you), you will have a hell of time trying to learn splines, nurb modelling, deformations, extrude and other methods in any 3d program.
you must crawl before you can walk.
I know I have personally put the time into learning these programs and I know for a fact what I'm talking about. please don't try and be some johnny-come-lately and tell me I have no clue what I'm talking about. I haven't done it with you, so I expect the same courtesy. All my post is, is a glimpse of how unnecessarily hard it is to make something in 3d for a 2d WB skin when you can get the exact smae results from a 2d program, if you have the knowledge to do it. there is no reason 3d programs in the creation pipeline for other anything than perspective, and even with PS CS3 and it's perspective tool, there is no need at all for any 3d program.
Until someone can prove that my statements are false, I stand by them. even Bill Bart who makes all the glorious WMP skins for The Skins Factory follows some of these same methods. Surely you can't be saying you know more than people who have actually done this before? I would post links to the articles about the creation of the Batman Forever WMP skin to further illustrate my point, but it seems TSF has taken them down for whatever reason on DeviantArt.
Please don't mistake the tone of my posts. I'm not being cynical, I'm not being egotistical, nor am I trying to be condescending. I am speaking from my 13+ years of experience with 3d programs and with various 2d programs.
until someone can prove to me there is a viable reason to make a 2d WB skin in 3d, I will continue to believe as I do.
But you can go ahead and think I'm an idiot who has no experience, but you have been told of the reasons it's unnecessary. Whether you choose to listen to someone with more experience is up to you.
Reply #40 Wednesday, March 21, 2007 8:37 PM
Xino, that's excellent! I mean it.
Are you planning on creating an IP based on this visual?
thank you and yes, it'll be a full icon pack.
but I know the limitations and soon other people will see them too.
Perhaps those are your limitations, speaking for myself, and without elaborating on my methods, I can see many reasons to use 3D technology in all areas of skinning..including but not limited to WB.
I respect your opinion but I like to think outside the box and just because you do not see a benefit in no way means I dont. I'm constantly learning old tools and new tools and I wont brush something off as useless just because someone else thinks it is.
Besides.. even If I can't pull something innovative off in WB, at least I tried and will have more experience for when we do skin for a true 3D environment than someone who chose to disregard it.
For my part I'll take a more positive path and encourage people to look into it on their own terms.. you never know what you can do until you try.
To each their own eh.
you seem to be reading more into my words than what is actually there. re-read my posts without thinking I'm cynical and you'll see I'm only typing about the truth of the matter. You seem to think I'm talking about all skinning, but I have stated several times, I'm only talking about WB. Also, until you can truly use PS and make it look 3d, like IR Brainiac did in PS (without any need for any 3d program mind you), you will have a hell of time trying to learn splines, nurb modelling, deformations, extrude and other methods in any 3d program.
you must crawl before you can walk.
I know I have personally put the time into learning these programs and I know for a fact what I'm talking about. please don't try and be some johnny-come-lately and tell me I have no clue what I'm talking about. I haven't done it with you, so I expect the same courtesy. All my post is, is a glimpse of how unnecessarily hard it is to make something in 3d for a 2d WB skin when you can get the exact smae results from a 2d program, if you have the knowledge to do it. there is no reason 3d programs in the creation pipeline for other anything than perspective, and even with PS CS3 and it's perspective tool, there is no need at all for any 3d program.
Until someone can prove that my statements are false, I stand by them. even Bill Bart who makes all the glorious WMP skins for The Skins Factory follows some of these same methods. Surely you can't be saying you know more than people who have actually done this before? I would post links to the articles about the creation of the Batman Forever WMP skin to further illustrate my point, but it seems TSF has taken them down for whatever reason on DeviantArt.
Please don't mistake the tone of my posts. I'm not being cynical, I'm not being egotistical, nor am I trying to be condescending. I am speaking from my 13+ years of experience with 3d programs and with various 2d programs.
until someone can prove to me there is a viable reason to make a 2d WB skin in 3d, I will continue to believe as I do.
But you can go ahead and think I'm an idiot who has no experience, but you have been told of the reasons it's unnecessary. Whether you choose to listen to someone with more experience is up to you.
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Reply #21 Wednesday, March 21, 2007 4:03 AM