Government rocks, or it sucks.
Sunday, January 8, 2006 by Adamness | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
So uh, how do you all feel about government? I'm not talking about Dubya Bush or any government in general, but rather the fundamental idea of government. Socialist or capitalist? Communist or fascist? Federal or confederate? Mixed? No government at all?
And by the way, don't start any 'I hate Bush' stuff. We're looking for something deeper than that. A few of us got a good religion thread going a few days ago, so I thought we could get a good government one going too.
Let's do this thing.
-Adam
Thinkbulb.com
And by the way, don't start any 'I hate Bush' stuff. We're looking for something deeper than that. A few of us got a good religion thread going a few days ago, so I thought we could get a good government one going too.
Let's do this thing.
-Adam
Thinkbulb.com
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Cynder-Elluh
Reply #2 Sunday, January 8, 2006 7:12 PM
Reply #2 Sunday, January 8, 2006 7:12 PM
Human beings are inclined to associate together for a common good such as protection and the exchange of products. However, failure to understand the interrelationships between the right to life, property and government has resulted in the destruction of the previous twenty civilizations.
Cynder-Elluh
Reply #3 Sunday, January 8, 2006 7:15 PM
Reply #3 Sunday, January 8, 2006 7:15 PM
Based on the paradoxical idea that the power to make law and to rule can be at once sovereign and effective, yet also defined, reasonable, and responsible, constitutionalism contains an inherent tension that sets it against utopianism and anarchism, which deny the reality of power, and absolutism and totalitarianism, which tolerate no limitations on power.
ENOUGH SAID! I'M DONE!
ENOUGH SAID! I'M DONE!
aimzzz
Reply #4 Sunday, January 8, 2006 7:22 PM
Reply #4 Sunday, January 8, 2006 7:22 PM
No government is anarchy. In any society, certain functions require government. The fight comes in who does the determining & in which functions the government performs. 
Gregory2001
Reply #5 Sunday, January 8, 2006 7:24 PM
Reply #5 Sunday, January 8, 2006 7:24 PM
I think we should have a government who can put a stop to people who start sentences with "So uh".
starkers
Reply #6 Sunday, January 8, 2006 7:27 PM
In my opinion, BOTH! It either rocks the boat or sucks ya/bleeds ya dry.
It doesn't matter which government you're talking about, or its political persuasion, they're all a bunch of self serving hypocrites who are big on promises but short on delivering.
Occasionally a good intentioned/honest person gets elected, but within no time, they're swallowed up by the system, so they either get buried and forgotten, or they toe the line and follow the corrupt path in order to survive.
Yeah, you guessed it, I have absolutely no time for governments/politicians....and no wonder, when you see essential services being withdrawn worldwide, broken promises to make it all better, anarchy and chaos because they have no clue as to how they should govern/rule.....and then there's the politician retirement packages that far exceed several workers' entire lifetime salaries.
We obviously need some form of order, but the majority of pollies running the show right now don't have enough combined grey matter to organise a pissup in a brewery.
And no...I don't have the answers, apart from perhaps starting with a clean slate and drastically slashing the huge financial rewards politicians now receive. Get rid of that, and the pecking order so many of them stab eachother in the back to climb faster, then maybe, just maybe we'll eventually get some sincere, genuine and honest politicians who are in it for the love of their country and people, rather than just being there for the power and line their pockets with taxpayers' money.
Yes, I have utter contempt for politicians, but then I've been betrayed too many times by too many of them to feel otherwise. And I don't just confine that to poiliticians here in Australia.....because for every low-life parliamentarian here, he/she has an equally despicable counterpart elsewhere in the world, doing equally despicable things to his/her country men/women.
Reply #6 Sunday, January 8, 2006 7:27 PM
| Government rocks, or it sucks. |
In my opinion, BOTH! It either rocks the boat or sucks ya/bleeds ya dry.
It doesn't matter which government you're talking about, or its political persuasion, they're all a bunch of self serving hypocrites who are big on promises but short on delivering.
Occasionally a good intentioned/honest person gets elected, but within no time, they're swallowed up by the system, so they either get buried and forgotten, or they toe the line and follow the corrupt path in order to survive.
Yeah, you guessed it, I have absolutely no time for governments/politicians....and no wonder, when you see essential services being withdrawn worldwide, broken promises to make it all better, anarchy and chaos because they have no clue as to how they should govern/rule.....and then there's the politician retirement packages that far exceed several workers' entire lifetime salaries.
We obviously need some form of order, but the majority of pollies running the show right now don't have enough combined grey matter to organise a pissup in a brewery.
And no...I don't have the answers, apart from perhaps starting with a clean slate and drastically slashing the huge financial rewards politicians now receive. Get rid of that, and the pecking order so many of them stab eachother in the back to climb faster, then maybe, just maybe we'll eventually get some sincere, genuine and honest politicians who are in it for the love of their country and people, rather than just being there for the power and line their pockets with taxpayers' money.
Yes, I have utter contempt for politicians, but then I've been betrayed too many times by too many of them to feel otherwise. And I don't just confine that to poiliticians here in Australia.....because for every low-life parliamentarian here, he/she has an equally despicable counterpart elsewhere in the world, doing equally despicable things to his/her country men/women.
Lantec
Reply #7 Sunday, January 8, 2006 7:32 PM
....it's not possible to perpetuate anarchy. No matter what you may end up calling it, humans in groups always form governments. Whether it be tribal councils or despotism it's still a form of government.
Pure Socialism or Pure Communism would "ideally" be the best forms of government, BUT humans are unable to "cope" with an ideal society. There are always those who want MORE/BETTER. More power, wealth, fame, toys, etc. Better house, clothes, cars, job, etc. Once anyone is better off in either form of government it becomes oppressive.
Given this fact a Democracy in which everyone has a say or at least has the illusion of being involved currently seems to be the most successful.
Capitalism is not necessarily a form of government. It is an economic system, as is socialism. The difference is capitalism can be used by several different forms of government. The communist Chinese seem to have figured out a way of including it in their system.
Fascism requires good leadership to work well and transitions of power are always bad for the Country involved.
My personal preference would by Tribal/Councilor rule by societal "Elders" where all men above a certain age, who meet some kind of moral/ethical/life achivement requirement, are automatically appointed to the council to remian as long as health allows. The council itself would funtion under parlimentarian procedure. Elect their own "moderator" and ALL meetings/voting etc. opens to the general citizenery for input and observation.
Is that the kind of thing you were looking for?
Reply #7 Sunday, January 8, 2006 7:32 PM
| No government at all? |
Pure Socialism or Pure Communism would "ideally" be the best forms of government, BUT humans are unable to "cope" with an ideal society. There are always those who want MORE/BETTER. More power, wealth, fame, toys, etc. Better house, clothes, cars, job, etc. Once anyone is better off in either form of government it becomes oppressive.
Given this fact a Democracy in which everyone has a say or at least has the illusion of being involved currently seems to be the most successful.
Capitalism is not necessarily a form of government. It is an economic system, as is socialism. The difference is capitalism can be used by several different forms of government. The communist Chinese seem to have figured out a way of including it in their system.
Fascism requires good leadership to work well and transitions of power are always bad for the Country involved.
My personal preference would by Tribal/Councilor rule by societal "Elders" where all men above a certain age, who meet some kind of moral/ethical/life achivement requirement, are automatically appointed to the council to remian as long as health allows. The council itself would funtion under parlimentarian procedure. Elect their own "moderator" and ALL meetings/voting etc. opens to the general citizenery for input and observation.
Is that the kind of thing you were looking for?
aimzzz
Reply #9 Sunday, January 8, 2006 7:39 PM
We're only human!
Reply #9 Sunday, January 8, 2006 7:39 PM
| humans are unable to "cope" with an ideal society |
We're only human!
NightTrainthedark
Reply #10 Sunday, January 8, 2006 7:45 PM
Reply #10 Sunday, January 8, 2006 7:45 PM
A government based on greed, like we have now, I don't like.
Cynder-Elluh
Reply #11 Sunday, January 8, 2006 7:46 PM
I am inclined to agree!!!
Reply #11 Sunday, January 8, 2006 7:46 PM
| BOTH! It either rocks the boat or sucks ya/bleeds ya dry. |
I am inclined to agree!!!
Cynder-Elluh
Reply #12 Sunday, January 8, 2006 7:49 PM
"So uh" (especially the "uh") is not even a way to speak!
More education is called for, may I suggest journalism!
If you intend to be a writer of any kind!
Reply #12 Sunday, January 8, 2006 7:49 PM
| I think we should have a government who can put a stop to people who start sentences with "So uh". |
"So uh" (especially the "uh") is not even a way to speak!
More education is called for, may I suggest journalism!
If you intend to be a writer of any kind!
Adamness
Reply #13 Sunday, January 8, 2006 7:50 PM
Reply #13 Sunday, January 8, 2006 7:50 PM
If it were possible to essentially make greed illegal for politicians, would that make things run smoother? I think the big problem is the transfer of money from big companies, trade unions, PACs, lobbying firms, etc., into the pockets of the politians.
I bet most politicans got into government thinking they would be the one to make a difference and change the world. Quickly, though, they saw how corrupt the system is and how hard, if not impossible, to change the entire govenment, and they ended up joining in the money grabbing.
If it were illegal for politicans to take money, from their pre-campaign until they leave office, they could actually serve their purpose. Most likely, if politicians were honest, and government would work, no matter the type of government or economic system.
The problem is enforcing this. It probably is impossible.
I bet most politicans got into government thinking they would be the one to make a difference and change the world. Quickly, though, they saw how corrupt the system is and how hard, if not impossible, to change the entire govenment, and they ended up joining in the money grabbing.
If it were illegal for politicans to take money, from their pre-campaign until they leave office, they could actually serve their purpose. Most likely, if politicians were honest, and government would work, no matter the type of government or economic system.
The problem is enforcing this. It probably is impossible.
Cynder-Elluh
Reply #14 Sunday, January 8, 2006 7:52 PM
Sorry, guess I wasn't done, I am now!
You can bank on that!
Reply #14 Sunday, January 8, 2006 7:52 PM
| ENOUGH SAID! I'M DONE! |
Sorry, guess I wasn't done, I am now!
You can bank on that!
Adamness
Reply #15 Sunday, January 8, 2006 7:52 PM
Reply #15 Sunday, January 8, 2006 7:52 PM
This isn't grammar time. Besides, this is a casual OS customization forum, stop trying to cause trouble.
Lantec
Reply #17 Sunday, January 8, 2006 8:10 PM
A few years ago I read an editorial in the local paper which repeated an idea that (I think it said) was once proposed to do just that. For Senators, President, Vice President, all Cabinet Members, Supreme Court Judges, and a few other "policy Making" positions it would require that all personally held "wealth" (and any transferred to any relative up to tens years prior) be liquidated and become part of a fund. The politician and their spouse and children to the age of 21 would then be required to live on the Social Security system with an income equal to the median income during his tenure in office adjusted for inflation. He would give up the ability to own property/stocks/investments etc. Any outside source of income (including wages) after his stay in office would also go into the fund which would be used to maintain the ex-politician population. Imagine how hard they would work for us then.
Of course this would require the politicians agree to institute it and would never, ever happen.
Reply #17 Sunday, January 8, 2006 8:10 PM
| If it were possible to essentially make greed illegal for politicians, would that make things run smoother? |
A few years ago I read an editorial in the local paper which repeated an idea that (I think it said) was once proposed to do just that. For Senators, President, Vice President, all Cabinet Members, Supreme Court Judges, and a few other "policy Making" positions it would require that all personally held "wealth" (and any transferred to any relative up to tens years prior) be liquidated and become part of a fund. The politician and their spouse and children to the age of 21 would then be required to live on the Social Security system with an income equal to the median income during his tenure in office adjusted for inflation. He would give up the ability to own property/stocks/investments etc. Any outside source of income (including wages) after his stay in office would also go into the fund which would be used to maintain the ex-politician population. Imagine how hard they would work for us then.
Of course this would require the politicians agree to institute it and would never, ever happen.
WebGizmos
Reply #18 Sunday, January 8, 2006 8:17 PM
Reply #18 Sunday, January 8, 2006 8:17 PM
IMO...A government is only as good as its citizens make it to be. When you have a corrupt government and the its citizens adopt the attitude of "I'm only one person what can I do" instead of speaking up and changing things, then you will have an even more corrupt government.
"Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did, and it never will. Find out just what people will submit to, and you have found out the exact amount of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them; and these will continue till they have resisted with either words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they suppress."
~ Frederick Douglas ~
"...for it is a truth, which the experience of all ages has attested, that the people are commonly most in danger when the means of insuring their rights are in the possession of those of whom they entertain the least suspicion."
~ Alexander Hamilton ~
"I am a revolutionist by birth, reading, and principle. I am always on the side of the revolutionists because there never was a revolution unless there were some oppressive and intolerable conditions against which to revolt."
~ Mark Twain ~
"In the beginning of a change, the Patriot is a scarce man, brave, hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot."
~ Mark Twain ~
"Those who seek to be truly free, must abolish any form of government which takes property from one in order to give to another, regardless of reason or rationale. Such a redistribution of wealth is little more than government sanctioned theft. Each man must be free to choose with whom he will share his time, his energy, his friendship, and the fruits of his labor as he sees fit. Government coercion and intervention in these areas is nothing less than tyranny."
"Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did, and it never will. Find out just what people will submit to, and you have found out the exact amount of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them; and these will continue till they have resisted with either words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they suppress."
~ Frederick Douglas ~
"...for it is a truth, which the experience of all ages has attested, that the people are commonly most in danger when the means of insuring their rights are in the possession of those of whom they entertain the least suspicion."
~ Alexander Hamilton ~
"I am a revolutionist by birth, reading, and principle. I am always on the side of the revolutionists because there never was a revolution unless there were some oppressive and intolerable conditions against which to revolt."
~ Mark Twain ~
"In the beginning of a change, the Patriot is a scarce man, brave, hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot."
~ Mark Twain ~
"Those who seek to be truly free, must abolish any form of government which takes property from one in order to give to another, regardless of reason or rationale. Such a redistribution of wealth is little more than government sanctioned theft. Each man must be free to choose with whom he will share his time, his energy, his friendship, and the fruits of his labor as he sees fit. Government coercion and intervention in these areas is nothing less than tyranny."
Adamness
Reply #19 Sunday, January 8, 2006 8:27 PM
Reply #19 Sunday, January 8, 2006 8:27 PM
Sounds a bit extreme Lantec. It would probably work, but nearly impossible to put in place. I just think politicans should be under more scrutiny, in terms of 'gifts' they get.
It is hard to talk about the ideal government, since in an ideal situation, there would be no government. Government is a constant work in progress, but the citizens are the ones who have to do the actual work, if the government is to progress.
It is hard to talk about the ideal government, since in an ideal situation, there would be no government. Government is a constant work in progress, but the citizens are the ones who have to do the actual work, if the government is to progress.
47songs
Reply #20 Sunday, January 8, 2006 8:40 PM
Reply #20 Sunday, January 8, 2006 8:40 PM
Quoting Twain? I like this one:
“The loud little handful will shout for war. The
pulpit will warily and cautiously protest at first…The
great mass of the nation will rub its sleepy eyes, and
will try to make out why there should be a war, and
they will say earnestly and indignantly: ‘It is unjust
and dishonorable and there is no need for war.’ Then
the few will shout even louder…Before long you will
see a curious thing: anti-war speakers will be stoned
from the platform, and free speech will be strangled
by hordes of furious men who still agree with the
speakers but dare not admit it...Next, statesmen will
invent cheap lies, putting blame upon the nation that
is attacked, and every man will be glad of those
conscience-soothing falsities, and will diligently
study them, and refuse to examine any refutations of
them; and thus he will by and by convince himself that
the war is just, and will thank God for the better
sleep he enjoys after this process of grotesque
self-deception.”
— Mark Twain
“The loud little handful will shout for war. The
pulpit will warily and cautiously protest at first…The
great mass of the nation will rub its sleepy eyes, and
will try to make out why there should be a war, and
they will say earnestly and indignantly: ‘It is unjust
and dishonorable and there is no need for war.’ Then
the few will shout even louder…Before long you will
see a curious thing: anti-war speakers will be stoned
from the platform, and free speech will be strangled
by hordes of furious men who still agree with the
speakers but dare not admit it...Next, statesmen will
invent cheap lies, putting blame upon the nation that
is attacked, and every man will be glad of those
conscience-soothing falsities, and will diligently
study them, and refuse to examine any refutations of
them; and thus he will by and by convince himself that
the war is just, and will thank God for the better
sleep he enjoys after this process of grotesque
self-deception.”
— Mark Twain
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Reply #1 Sunday, January 8, 2006 6:59 PM