Comercializing Skinning
Tuesday, February 22, 2005 by Will_Uknight | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
Commercializing Skinning
I’ve been thinking about this for a few days now, and I thought I’d share my thoughts with you.
You can already see that Wincustomize sells commercial skins for $15US or whatever.
How about thinking of a system where ordinary skinners can earn a token amount for their work…
The basic gist of my idea is that:
A) to download a skin, any skin, would cost 1 credit.
(lets ignore variations for now, obviously a complete windows theme would be worth more then an icon)
People can convert dollars into credits in $5 lots, and
credits into dollars in $20 lots.
C) You can only 'sell' skins if you are a Wincustomize subscriber
1 Credit = 1 Download,
1 Credit = 1 Cent ($0.1)
There are 3 main reasons why people don't like to pay for things on the internet.
Problem
1) The hassle of transferring money, even small amounts
2) The price, who wants to spend money
3) The variety, why pay when you can probably get something similar for free.
Solution
1) Make it automatic, or a 1 click process,
you click "Download" and X credits will be automatically transferred to the skinners account.
2) Make it so cheap that no one would begrudge paying
3) It would be easier to pay the tiny amount, then trying to find an alternative
This system would be spread across different levels, much the same why it is now:
Visitor: Can download free skins
Registered Member: Can download credited skins, and upload free skins
Subscriber: Can download credited skins, and upload credited skins.
The reason for having to be a subscriber to upload credited skins would be so that Wincustomize benefited from the minor hassle that implementing this system would create. I would guarantee that they'd have 99% of skin designers becoming subscribers in order to enjoy the benefits of such a system.
Anyway, I just thought I'd share my ideas with you. I know that $0.1 per download is barely worth it, but it would mean that the skins were taken more seriously, it would mean that it would be something you could put down as job experience, it would mean that more people would be able to justify being subscribers and it would mean that more people would bring their creative talent to the skinning world.
I know that I've often wished I could quickly and easily
make a small donation to creators of skins and software. Alone its not much, but
it adds up 
Thankyou for reading.
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Reply #2 Tuesday, February 22, 2005 10:57 PM
But like you've said, there are issues when it comes to spending money on the internet. There could be quite a few young people here who either are using the free versions of the software or had parents buy the software for them, they wouldn't have any way to spend money to download skins (especially if they're using a free version anyway, why on earth would you pay for skins for a free product?).
Reply #3 Tuesday, February 22, 2005 11:12 PM
| why on earth would you pay for skins for a free product?). |
Someone gives you free accommodation....you can still buy a painting to hang on its wall.
The 'skin' is an entity in its own right, and is an artform just as any other, so payment is justifiable equally whether for a 'free program' or a bought one...
Decision to purchase or not is up to the 'customer', just as it would be with any other commodity...
Reply #4 Tuesday, February 22, 2005 11:46 PM
I agree that appreciation is due for all the art offered for free here at WC.
Compensation for hard work is always good.
I think a big issue for this idea might end up being in the support field. If someone has issues with a downloaded skin, who does the user contact and what are their rights.
I have noticed that once a person pays for something, there is an inherent need for the product to work properly or for someone to fix it.
Just something to think about for a venture like this.
Free art remains relatively stress free, with the possible exception of being concerned about whether others will like the work or not.
I will admit that I have paid a pretty penny for a majority of my software, and do enjoy a freebie now and again, so I may be a bit biased on this one - though I know that as soon as Mormegil whips out a new project I will be one of the first in line to pay.
Reply #5 Wednesday, February 23, 2005 4:05 AM
| Seems such a small payout for such a big headache in coding the thing up. |
Well if it was implemented, it certainly would be worth it for Wincustomize to code it, i mean look at how they'd benifit from increased subscribers. I was also thinking that WinC. could take a cut out of every currency exchange, fit it was nessary, i.e $5 = 490 credits.
| I'm already a customer, the idea of having to pay for skins for a product I've already paid for isn't a good idea to me. |
The skins aren't made by the same people that you bought the program from, they're made by individual artists. You wouldn't buy Windows XP and expect to get all the software that runs on it for free, its the same thing. Wincustomize is a commerical site anyhow, not an open source/freeware site.
| To me personally, I would think that a skinner would lose interest/creativity when getting paid is involved |
it would make you feel like your work has some value.| But like you've said, there are issues when it comes to spending money on the internet. There could be quite a few young people here who either are using the free versions of the software or had parents buy the software for them, they wouldn't have any way to spend money to download skins (especially if they're using a free version anyway, why on earth would you pay for skins for a free product?). |
Therefore the issues need to be examined and solved. Young people are as able as anyone else to make transactions over the net, I'm only 19 myself and i've been doing interent banking since 16.
At 1cent or so per download, its a trivial amount and most people wouldn't go through more then $0.20 at the most !
| Decision to purchase or not is up to the 'customer', just as it would be with any other commodity... |
| I have noticed that once a person pays for something, there is an inherent need for the product to work properly or for someone to fix it. |
It doesn't matter if you pay 5 cents for something, or you get it for free, people are still going to ask for help if they need it.
Reply #6 Wednesday, February 23, 2005 7:09 AM
I have some WMP skins that have been downloaded in the hundreds of thousands of times, and that 0.05 would have ended up being a good deal of money.
This would also help with another issue.
If you make me pay 0.01 - 0.05 / skin to download it, AND you make it so i cant leave a comment or RATING until i DOWNLOAD it, then im having to PAY to comment and rate a skin, then that would (i think) DRASTICLY Cut back on these "drive-by" comments and ratings people!
Im all for it.. Maybe have it so that insteed of the skinner getting paid they could get credits themselves, or even free subscripitions or stardock s/w.
Think about it. If I have a skin that gets downloaded 100x maybe i should get a credit on my account (to allow ME to download) of 100 points. Or even have a .02/10 deal meaning for every 10 downloads you get an extra 1 or 2 credits. Or even give me credit to pay for my wincustomize subscription. or the latest and greatest SD product. It would be a gient circle. I buy the product to use, I make a skin, I get paid for that skin, and i then pay for the next version of the software or subscription with that credit.
Even if this never happens it might also benifit WC to offer "discounts" to skinners who have more then 10,000 downloads or reach a certain level. This allows QUALITY Skinners to be able to upload and download here without haiving to pay for a full subscription. Thus keeping good skins on the site. I know i kind of feel like im helping WC make money off my work and im having to PAY them to do it.
just my 0.02
Reply #7 Wednesday, February 23, 2005 7:42 AM
so if somebody didn't suggest it, it would probably happened anyway in some way
but asking money will scare people away, no matter the costs.....
there is always an alternative.....
i have to say that some skinners deserve to be rewarded for their help and submissions on this site.... they brought you a lot of subscribers, i'm one of them
Reply #8 Wednesday, February 23, 2005 5:41 PM
Ozzy> I agree that it couldn't work overnight, but it is something that could be thought about, and if it ever was implemented. i doubt it would take more then half a year.
My plan was for the site to still host free content, for example people that don't want to/can't suscribe, would still be uploading free skins.
As i said before, if the entire process of 'paying' can be streamlined and made easy, then it won't put people off. the process would have 3 steps
1) Register to Wincustomize (get 10 credits free when you register ?)
2) Use paypal or a credit card to put credit on your account
3) Download as many skins as you want untill your credit runs out.
if you said that a minimum credit purchase was 500 credits, then that would last someone for a year or so!
Reply #9 Wednesday, February 23, 2005 5:49 PM
| the entire process of 'paying' can be streamlined and made easy |
Cut Stardock and WC right out of the loop. Send the checks directly to me. It doesn't get any more streamlined than that.
Reply #10 Wednesday, February 23, 2005 9:24 PM
and then repeat that everytime they want to download something...
thats why shareware's lame, even if its worth it.
Reply #11 Wednesday, February 23, 2005 11:18 PM
Reply #12 Thursday, February 24, 2005 1:09 AM
And as i said before, with this system, people could still releace their skins for free if they wanted to, it would be their choice...
And at 1 cent per download, people aren't going to make much money by releaving crappy skins...
Reply #13 Thursday, February 24, 2005 3:33 AM
i just got a subscription and it is for 2 years so if in like 6 months i suddenly would have to pay more that would be a bit weird.......that was not in the agreement
so it would take more than 6 months to do something like this
Reply #14 Thursday, February 24, 2005 4:41 AM
Reply #15 Thursday, February 24, 2005 4:56 AM
I mean they have lot of subscribers,and thousands of clicks everyday...and offcourse growing number of gallaries because of "SKINNERS".and forgot to mention "sponsers".
why they need change? Basically you all want "pizza party".
Nice try guys...
Reply #16 Thursday, February 24, 2005 7:25 AM
Hmmm, I might not be from the US but I believe one cent is $0.01 not $0.1
At that $0.01 rate I am owed $2500. Cheque please 
Reply #17 Thursday, February 24, 2005 8:15 AM
I have to add a reality check here. You proposed that Stardock would get $.10 for every $5.00 spent on the skins. In exchange, you think that this would raise subscriptions.
Well, it would lower subscriptions. People pay for subscriptions to get unlimited access and to support the site. If they have to pay for a subscription and then pay for the skins, too, then it will cause people not to buy subscriptions. Sure, you *may* have more skin artists buying subscriptions (though most have already subscribed) but the majority of the users on here are not skinners.
Take your "cut" that Stardock would get in exchange. First, it would take 6 months full time for two high end coders to implement. That is equivalent to at least $60,000 (not including lost revenue from other projects not being completed). Then, every time that $5.00 is processed, Stardock is charged 3% of the transaction + $.25. That is $.40. So, we would be losing $.30 each time we processed $5.00. Say that 2,000 people processed $5.00. We would "get" $200, but we would be charged $800, with a net loss of $600. Then you have to consider that somebody needs to send the checks to all these authors. That costs money. You would have somebody spending days each month processing payments. Authors that were very popular would require 1099's at the end of the year (more expense). Then, there is the expense of bookkeeping disputes and technical support. The list goes on.
How many subscriptions would be needed to cover those costs? (I can give you a hint: it's more than double what is currently sold). WC barely breaks even as is. It takes a lot of server power and a ton of bandwidth to keep this site alive. Don't get me wrong, Stardock does benefit from having the site. However, we also have a lot of expense in making it better and faster all the time. It's just not solely funded by subscriptions. It's still funded by a "Stardock Grant" per se.
Trust me, we have already thought about this. There are different ideas for a viable system. However, there are points that have to be addressed.
1) There would have to be strict moderation, and only those that made it through could be "sold"
2) There would have to be a higher amount paid per skin
3) The costs of the system would have to be covered by the profits
4) It can not alienate the existing users or cause the skin authors added expense
Some thoughts have been to have higher subscription amounts, and have a "premium" section. The premium section will be filled with the "best of the best" and the skin authors in that section would get a profit share of the premium subscription based on their download stats. Subscribers to the premium subscription would only get to download so many "premium" skins without having to pay an additional fee to download more.
Obviously, we haven't come up with a viable plan yet. But, it has been in discussion for quite some time now. We would *love* to have a system that paid authors for their works. However, we can't bankrupt the site in the process.
Reply #19 Friday, February 25, 2005 7:52 PM
I've written something up on this that I never published, it's from mid last year:
I've got bad news for some people. Premium skins, themes and suites are here to stay. The good news is that it will likely result in an increasing number of free skins as well.
When WinCustomize first started, 10,000 years ago, we were accused of being elitist. The main reason this charge was made was because we are elitist. But not in any sort of bad way. Just elitist in the sense that we thought some human beings were more valuable than others and all others should be subjugated, converted into their nutrients or used as slave labor. And how can that be bad?
Seriously though, what we decided to do on WinCustomize that was and still is unusual is that we have access ranks. Citizen to Apprentice to Master Apprentice to Journeyman to Master. With around 1.5 million users here, 99.9% of them are Citizens. Over time, people who contribute to the site would move up to Apprentice. And then eventually on up. A handful make it to having Master access and a few others become moderators.
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How does this relate to premium skins? Because eventually, users with Master access will be able to start creating and selling premium skins and themes -- here on WinCustomize. These are people, after all, who have made it to that position because of years of freely giving to the community. And it means they are very very good at what they do. The problem with "free" is that free doesn't put food on the table. So those skins are made in their "free" time. If you want them to create wonderful complex works, you have to move into their "non-free" time. Hence, premium skins.
It’s a win-win situation though. For long time givers to the community, they will be able to get something back. Users will be able to support their favorite skinners. And up and coming skinners will be able to have an incentive to make great free skins as they climb the ladder resulting in even more free stuff for users.
The process will start out rather slowly though as we don’t want a flood of premium skins. They will have to be evaluated still so that the quantity remains manageable. But over time, users will be able to choose amongst an increasing library of exceptionally high quality, professionally created skins, themes, and suites.
A recent poll showed that most people think skinning should always be free. I can respect that. On the other hand, most things we purchase at the store have premium add-on content.
I can buy level packs or expansion packs for my games. I can buy extra textures and plugins for Photoshop. 3D Studio has a cottage industry of premium models. In fact, there are entire websites dedicated to selling 3D models. And while I can get free songs, most songs we’re supposed to pay for.
That said, there will always (and should always) be free alternatives out there. The system doesn’t need everyone to agree in order to function. WinCustomize itself survives only because a miniscule percentage of users purchase subscriptions each year. Survives being the operating word. WinCustomize's current model really isn't sustainable because it still requires Stardock to pay 2/3rds of the costs which will only be sustainable as long as its *customization* software does so well.
Premium skins holds out the potential for the site to become self-sustaining and for skinners to be compensated for their work. After all, when users start being asked to purchase a subscription (after having downloaded 50 megabytes of stuff) many suddenly discover the plight of the poor skin author who they say needs to be compensated (and what they mean is that WinCustomize or Stardock should do the compensating). But soon they'll have an opportunity to support the skinners directly. Oh happy days!
You can find some existing premium skins here: Stardock Premium Skin page. As well as the Orion icons page and Carbonix and Oranda.
Reply #20 Friday, February 25, 2005 9:47 PM
Thank you very much for the crystal clear (at least for me) comments. It definitely puts things in perspective.
Now I must get back practicing my CorelDRAW and Photoshop skills - as well as increasing my understanding of highlights and shadows (let's see, does the light reflect there too?
).Oh yeah! I think there is a SkinStudio beginner's class starting soon somewhere. Cool, I might be able to create my own skins to use and share. Maybe even earn a higher access level and someday sell a couple suites..............well, maybe..........if I adjust that margin just so, and............yeah, that curve looks smooth now................okay, who can I get to help me test this thing?
Worth a try anyway.
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Reply #1 Tuesday, February 22, 2005 10:06 PM