Blog: Drama on Aqua-Soft
Saturday, September 4, 2004 by Frogboy | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
(decided to make this a forum post since it's not really news)
For this blog I'll have to put on my special flame-resistant outfit. Our friends at Aqua-Soft have shut down their forums after a dramatic inter-developer spat broke out. I was in the middle of it and for my part in that discussion I feel bad. So what happened?
First a little background. Aqua-Soft is a customization website that specializes in helping users make Windows look more Mac-like. Since WindowBlinds, ObjectDock, IconPackager, ObjectBar and DesktopX have long been used to that end by many users. Stardock has long been on there in various ways. But I hadn't been on there much until recently because of my work on The Political Machine. Now that that game is out at the stores, the next things on my list to work on were ObjectDock Plus and DesktopX 2.2 both of which had late summer release schedules.
But when I went back to Aqua-Soft I was startled by how much its community had changed.
The site admins are great guys who really have worked hard to make the site a place that is friendly for developers and users. But the content of the site had slowly become very AveDesk oriented. AveDesk is a program that essentially lets you take dock plugins (such as for ObjectDock) and put them on your desktop sort of like DesktopX widgets. How did the site become so oriented that way? Why AveDesk instead of other widget-type programs like Kapsules, Samurize, or DesktopX? Because those programs all have their own website, own forums, and own libraries whereas AveDesk does not so they gravitated to Aqua-Soft. So just as users WinCustomize.com tend to be users of DesktopX and WindowBlinds, users on Aqua-Soft had become vocal supporters of AveDesk. Which is fine until they start trying to antagonize other developers/programs.
When I went onto the DesktopX forum and wrote a post on DesktopX 2.2, one user actually wrote "Hmm, this sounds like a Payware version of AveDesk" (not even close). When a news item on IconX was made, several AveDesk users went on and wrote things like "AveDesk can do this better" (no, it has nothing to do with IconX). Other developers have noticed this trend as well. In one discussion, an Aqua-Soft news moderator actually accused us of scheduling DesktopX 2.2's release around AveDesk's 1.1's release to interfere with it. This would be akin to accusing Microsoft of scheduling Longhorn's release to conflict with SkyOS.
So with that back-drop, I submitted a news item to Aqua-Soft of the DesktopX video tutorial I did the other day. And like I said, the guys who run Aqua-Soft are very fair minded. They've been doing this for a long time and know what they're doing.
Then all hell broke lose. If you think people ripping on IconX or saying it's not as good as AveDesk was bad, the response to this news item was much worse. The first response was from the AveDesk developer himself who publicly complained that a news item for a video tutorial wasn't appropriate. Now bear in mind, on Aqua-Soft, the AveDesk developer gets to directly post news items. He has a developer's blog where he can put his development status reports (and does) as front page news items on the site. I don't object to that. I don't object to that AT ALL. I make blogs posts like this here on WinCustomize.com (of course, I work for the company that owns the site). But for someone whose own personal development blogs get posted as front page news items on Aqua-Soft to publicly complain about a 3 line news item about a video tutorial seemed like quite a double standard. Which I said so.
And if I thought it was rough having AveDesk advocates zinging every DesktopX or IconX related news item or post, it was nothing compared to when the developer himself had taken a public stance. It was like a clarion call for its advocates to rush in.
Eventually the news item comments were closed but a forum post was made at which point the entire process repeated with everyone getting angrier and angrier. The AveDesk developer felt I was putting words in his mouth. I felt he was demanding a double standard and oblivious to how much benefit he received from Aqua-Soft. And I also felt under-siege as his fans came to his defense. His fans essentially argued that since his program is free he should get special treatment. And besides, I was "forcing" DesktopX down their throat because I had become active in posting there in the run-up in DesktopX 2.2's release. So post after post about AveDesk is fine, but if I write about DesktopX in the DesktopX forum I'm forcing people to use DesktopX. DesktopX has WinCustomize they argued (implying that AveDesk should have Aqua-Soft even though Aqua-Soft is supposed to be a neutral site).
The AveDesk fans basically took the view that while it okay to basically flame and impugn me or DestopX and its users, merely disagreeing (and I mean the polite cannon was on maximum power) was considered forbidden by its fans (I wish I could link to the thread so you wouldn't have to take my word for it but to see it for yourself). Literally the mere concept of other apps, particularly non-free ones, being given an equal shake was totally unacceptable to the AveDesk fans. Ave was "part of the community", the rest of us were not.
That was when I threw up my hands and gave up on the forums. It reminds me a bit of the whole Style XP thing where at first its developers were giving it away and had no forums so users gravitated over to Neowin and because Neowin is a neutral site, it gave the impression that Style XP (and later msstyles) must be really popular because everyone was talking about it there and few were talking about WindowBlinds. That effect hasn't gone away entirely but now that its developers have their own forums, things on skinning sites have evened out much more though msstyles discussion, not having an official home, tend to gravitate out on various sites. So in other words, I'd been through that pain before and I wasn't going to go through it again.
If the site's users want Aqua-Soft to be THE AveDesk marketing/channel where other developers could expect to have AveDesk fans pile on every time there's a discussion/post/news item about a "competing" program then forget it. Soon after that the owners (who again I want to stress are very fair minded, this is not their fault and as an admin I know the feeling have losing control over the direction of the site, JoeUser.com often feels like it's gotten totally out of hand) closed the forums.
And bear in mind, all this came to a head over the same exact news item we have here on the DesktopX object video tutorial which received about a dozen responses total.
Hopefully things will return to normal as it is a good site and the people who run the site are great guys. But I also think that the AveDesk fans need to be a LOT more tolerant and realize that Aqua-Soft is supposed to appeal to all users who are trying to "Aquify" their PCs. If they want to have a partisan site to promote AveDesk then they need to create their own, not latch onto a site with a proud 3+ year old history.
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Reply #42 Monday, September 6, 2004 10:21 PM
[email perhaps of passing interest to others]
Grim53...
Generally we do not remove posts...particularly if/when their removal may be seen as some form of pro-Stardock-protecting censorship.
Wincustomize.com is owned and financed by Stardock, but their patronage is for the betterment of skinning as a whole, and shouldn't be seen as some nefarious sub-plot.
You say you were at A-S for a year and now it appears you may lose your site through the stupidity of others.....that's unfortunate, but the 'older' members of the skinning community can attest to numerous instances of the same situation....
A few to ponder....
Customize.org [oldest public skinning site]
Customize.org the second time
DeskMod [hacked]
DeskMod [again, if I remember right]
Skinz.org [arguably the most influential of them all]
LiteSTEP.com [hacked, I think][several times]
LiteSTEP.net [ditto]
Downtime also but perhaps less invidiously...to...
Skinbase
ArtUproar
LotsOfSkins
DeviantArt
There'll be more, but I'm bound to forget them....
Those within the skinning community that have been at it for six years or more certainly know what it's all about, and how easy it is to have things lose the plot.
Those who consider skinning to be more than a fad or passing interest [mildly diverting] will not be discouraged by the dick-heads who are intent on spoiling it for others, but will be pro-active in ensuring it doesn't happen again.
People like Brad [Frogboy] [he may just 'happen' to be CEO of Stardock, but actually he's first and foremost a skinner] and other older, established members of the online skinning community are particularly pro-active and have no interest what-so-ever in bringing any facet of skinning into disrepute as it serves no common good to do so.
When leveller heads have prevailed, and reasonable 'control' is restored on A-S I'm sure it'll be back again for all to enjoy. If tighter reins are required on forum conduct....so be it. Keeping 'sensible' control of an online public website is not for the faint-hearted, nor is it an easy juggling act [imagine a site with almost 1.5 million members].
Hope this explains things a little,
Cheers,
Paul Martin
JAFO
Admin Wincustomize.com
Reply #44 Monday, September 6, 2004 10:34 PM
in time the admins either loose control of the site and close it .. or they remove the offending patrons. its as simple as that.
if A-S was a "product support/skins" only site i could understand questioning brads posts.. but as far as i have understood A-S was supposed to be a "for all skins site " that means most any prog and skinner was welcome ...
if that is NOT the case it should be stated on the main page ...
[Message Edited]
Reply #45 Tuesday, September 7, 2004 12:06 AM
Reply #46 Tuesday, September 7, 2004 12:11 AM
thanks for killing aqua soft, your a moron if u think people will just pick avedesk over anything else bacuase it is at aqua soft. different people will use different things to suit there needs. i have seen many threads at aquasoft by u acusing aqua soft memebers of backing up ave, and its just not true. you have managed to make this seem like something its not. congrats. and aquasoft is closed now.IF it opens up again it will be drimaticly differnt.AWSOME. GOOD JOB.
kill my acount, im not comeing here any more.
have a nice day. "
Grow up, buy a dictionary, and learn some grammar. It's folks making pointless rants like yours that are causing the problem. Brad did not cause the closure of the forums at AquaSoft. By the way, check your facts: AveDesk IS a very popular subject at Aquasoft. Not knocking the app, I think it's a great proggie, so don't EVEN go there.
Reply #47 Tuesday, September 7, 2004 1:58 AM
i would like to personly apoligize to frogboy.sorry man.
i hope u guys can understand that a lot of crap happend at my fav site, and i was upset.i posted in anger and i regret that.
so again, im sorry.
peace
Reply #48 Tuesday, September 7, 2004 2:11 AM
never heard of AveDesk... neither of skyOS
Reply #49 Tuesday, September 7, 2004 6:00 AM
Wow. What community was that and what skinnable apps were you running back then?
Reply #50 Tuesday, September 7, 2004 6:03 AM
I have been a wincustomize customer for a long time. I have bought and I use most of the products Stardock offers. I love them. I also love AveDesk. Myself, I find Avedesk much easier to use than Desktop X. I understand they do different things. I have tried both. I use AveDesk, but I do not use Desktop X. That is simply my own experience and not meant to put down Desktop X.
To put Andreas' AveDesk app in perspective, the reason why Aqua-Soft members may find themselves ebullient about supporting Avedesk, is that Andreas is a developer who has written many valuable aqua emulating applications for the Aqua emulation community at Aqua-Soft, not just AveDesk. He gives a lot to that community and he has done it so far without demanding any recompense. So he has many fans. The release of Avedesk 1.1 happened relatively recently and its ease of use and aqua-emulation has been a boon for the Aqua-Soft members. But there is a strange dynamic that occurs for freeware developers at a site like Aqua-Soft that 3rd party payware developers should already be well aware there is a touch and go worry about losing developers of free apps due to too many complaints about the software, or not enough appreciation shown the developers, or payware competitors trancing in with sales pitches. It is a very uneasy balance. Developers who offer popular programs often get fierce loyalty or support because members do not want to lose the developer. Sometimes it goes overboard without question. When this delicate dynamic is out of balance it quickly goes into an uncotrollable frenzy. It is most unfortunate and happens more often than most of us would like. It is no joy having to beg great developers to come back, when why they left in the first place was due to the errant comments of just a few.
Like I said, I am a stardock customer and supporter, but I did find it a little odd to find the Desktop X tutorial on the news at Aqua-Soft. I watched the tutorial, and after seeing it I was assured that I still had no need of the program (eventhough I have a stardock subscription). It just doesn't do what AveDesk does and I don't even see how to use Desktop X for Aqua emulation. Not that it was wrong of anybody to post it, but it did seem out of place per emulation possibilities.
Frogboy, I think you did the community at aqua-soft a disservice by coming back to the site after a long hiatus and making a value judgement about the direction the site has been taking. The AveDesk thing has not been going on all that long. You probably came back at its peak. These things ebb and flow. Just like with the finder wars, all the buzz and excitement dies down once everybody finally gets what they have been dreaming of. So I think your assessment contained a bit of a perspective error by judging that the community had radically changed in your absence. That's a bit of an overreaction, and it is unfortunate because it has led to an erroneaous judgement upon AveDesk.
I am very happy with all the software Stardock offers to make my emulation easier, safer, and more fun, but I am equally grateful to Andreas for giving me apps that do things others don't and giving them to me and the rest of the aqua-soft community for free. I do not think that because Ave's Apps are free means he should get special privilege, but I do think he has earned special consideration and a substantial following at Aqua-Soft because of his longtime contributions and involvement with that specific community. You as developers of software not specifically oriented to Aqua-Soft should be aware of that, and since you profit from promoting your software you should at least be more amiable to a sense of fairplay. Although Andreas may have had a knee-jerk reaction that was construed as unfair, in essence his reaction was not entirely unfounded either. The Stardock tutorial video didn't really have much to do with aqua-emulation (or at least didn't really make it clear how it did), and I will go further to say that the previous post to that, about 'the reason why Desktop X doesn't come across as favorably as other widget programs was because nobody was making good graphics for it' was even more out of place. You have a product that you are selling. For one, my skin crawled upon reading that because you were making a plea to be on an equal playing field with a free app. This is not appropriate. If you are selling a product and you want to improve its competitveness, then invest capital in it. Hire graphic artists to improve the look of Desktop X widgets. Do not ask graphic artists to contribute to your app for free at a community with a very closely related freeware app currently in high-popularity mode. Be aware of your market and be sensitive to it. People contribute to AveDesk for free because they get it for free and they find it an agreeable exchange. It is not an agreeable exchange to improve the look of a product for someone who makes a profit and does not share the profit with you. Each of these two news posts taken alone were not egregious, but taken together they begin to seem a little like a sales pitch. Again, as your customer who is already sold on your product, it turns me off to see this.
Ultimately, I feel your reaction to AveDesk was short-sighted. It is a new app. Version 1.1 was a huge leap forward over its previous version and the app has suddenly found exponential growth and popularity at the website where it was born. If it continues to grow, or I should say, If it "had" continued (if Andreas does indeed stop developing apps for Aqua-Soft), it very likely would've gone on to prop up its own website apart from Aqua-Soft over time. These things go through stages. Let it have its time. If it went on to get its own website and become payware, so much the better. Andreas deserves as much for all he has done. He has written an app that is very popular. On the other hand, Stardock also deserves its place in the emulation community and I hope we can see more apps in the future that help us get what we want out of our computers.
The entire episode is most unfortunate. I hope that all the developers can see how they contribute to the happiness of all of us modders and emulators, and for the greater percentage of us, we support you and are very grateful to the hours of obsessive/compulsive fun you provide us for screwing around with our computers. We also get most distressed and queasy when we see a riff between developers because we know we may lose the future bliss of a cool new app that puts a fabulous panther-like doohookie right where we always dreamed it could be.
I hope everyone can kiss, make-up, put this in the past and get on to what we were doing before...
happy modding/emulating
-pazl
Reply #51 Tuesday, September 7, 2004 7:12 AM
Sorry for the double post. there is an error in the previous post that needs correcting, but there is some sort of error where it won't let me edit my own post.
Anyway, in the passages where I speak of the tutorial, that tutorial was for Icon X, not Desktop X. Please read accordingly. I had a brain fart.
Reply #52 Tuesday, September 7, 2004 8:51 AM
Reply #53 Tuesday, September 7, 2004 9:14 AM
You said
| Like I said, I am a stardock customer and supporter, but I did find it a little odd to find the Desktop X tutorial on the news at Aqua-Soft. I watched the tutorial, and after seeing it I was assured that I still had no need of the program (eventhough I have a stardock subscription). It just doesn't do what AveDesk does and I don't even see how to use Desktop X for Aqua emulation. Not that it was wrong of anybody to post it, but it did seem out of place per emulation possibilities. |
Something I'm waiting to get permission for, its a DesktopX weather widget, with an aqua-esq apperance. I'm fairly sure someone could very easily replace the background image with a proper aqua one. So DesktopX can be used for Aqua emulation the same way AveDesk can.
http://www.cadot.plus.com/dx2/Weatherbeam_preview.jpg for full sized
(btw I have both AveDesk and DesktopX object/widgets on my desktop, both at work and at home)
Reply #54 Tuesday, September 7, 2004 9:32 AM
Reply #55 Tuesday, September 7, 2004 9:41 AM
[Message Edited]
Reply #56 Tuesday, September 7, 2004 10:46 AM
pazl: thank you for your thoughtful response.
I didn't go to Aqua-Soft and make a value judgment on the direction of the community until AFTER the blow-up occurred.
So let me address some specific points as concisely as my long-winded nature will let me. 
1) There is NOTHING that Avedesk can do that DesktopX can't do. So whatever Aqua emulation you're looking to do with Avedesk can be done with DesktopX.
2) I think the aqua emulation widget apps provide is iffy at best. Other than a general graphical style, for any widget application to take center stage at Aqua-Sot is a real stretch.
3) The order of events is key. I go onto Aqua-Soft after a long hiatus and begin by participtaing in the ObjectDock forums. And all is well.
Then I make some posts about DesktopX in the DesktopX forum. And what do I get? Comments of "What's this? a payware version of Avedesk?" as if DesktopX were somehow new. But it doesn't stop there. Several of my other posts elsewhere are followed-up with a "Avedesk can do this better." or "Avedesk can do this and more." No offense to Avedesk but comparing Avedesk to DesktopX is like comparing Notepad to MS Word. It's a terrific program for taking docklets and putting them on your desktop. But that's about as far as it goes right now. DesktopX can do a lot more than that.
And so anytime I would defend DesktopX against the Avedesk fans who would come into the DesktopX forum and start trolling for Avedesk, they would start taking it like I'm attacking Andreas or something.
This culminated with Avedesk advocates attacking the owners of Aqua-Soft for making a news item for a DX video tutorial.
As someone who has been around Aqua-Soft since it first came into existence, I can tell you the site was never designed to be a partisan for any program. Andreas has done a great deal for that community and deserves the respect he receives. But that does'nt make it okay for Avedesk fans to go and denigrate all other programs.
4) You say "Hire a graphics artist to improve DesktopX widgets". There are lots of beautiful DesktopX widgets/objects/themes already out there. But your Avedesk bias is getting the best of you considerng that mots of the popular Avedesk widgets are literally stolen graphically from Konfabulator.
5) It should be remembered that there is a freeware version of DesktopX. It should also be remembered that there is a PayPal setup to send money to Andreas. I think the line is a bit blurred to say the least.
6) I think the bottom line is that placing blame on others for what Avedesk fans did is not helpful. The "solution" should not be that non-Avedesk developers stop writing about their stuff.
The solution should be that Avedesk fans be a little tolerant. They have their own forum there. Stay there. Don't go into other developer's forums and start trash-talking that app. Don't go onto news items for other programs and try to explain how what it does could be done with Avedesk:
http://www.aqua-soft.org/index.php/news/2004/08/30/iconx_1_0_released
7) Don't fall for the misconception that Avedesk is somehow really popular simply because it's the most popularly discussed app on Aqua-Soft. Samurize.com on its own gets more traffic than all the aqua-related sites combined for instance. DesktopX and Samurize are both much more popular than Avedesk. To say that DesktopX doesn't come across as favorably as other widget type apps is not borne out by the facts. I have to ask, have you even LOOKED at the widget section here?
Sure, the stolen Konfabulator graphics look good in Avedesk widgets just like they'd look good on anything. That's why Konfabulator is so popular on the Mac - it is very slick looking. But what original content there is for Avedesk, which is to say, not much, is no better than the original content for most of the programs out there (including much of the original content for Konfabulator not made by the authors).
8) Avedesk is good but its goodness does not need to be promoted at the expense of other programs that have developers and fans too.
Reply #57 Tuesday, September 7, 2004 11:10 AM
Not a "Oh, Crap!" Here we go with the flamin' and de Bashin'. Wasn't AveDesk on the Front Page News, not too long ago? I mean why would Brad put it there if He was such an ASS?
Why would he Talk about it, promote it, or use it as a comparison for DX? I mean there are alot of Interface Apps out there, and He has his pick of choice. I would take it as a compliment, to be even remotely compared to DX. Hope this all blows over soon. hmmmphh.
Reply #58 Tuesday, September 7, 2004 11:12 AM
This is not true and I find this very very very disrespectfull to some of the people that have been creating graphics for me. All avedesk default widgets don't had any graphics from konfabulator - let alone stolen-, except for the FTP drop where permission was obtained for. Of course, because most of the widgets were skinable, people on the aqua-emu site created konfab-graphics for it. But that happens to windowblinds too (especially at an emu-site), so if I follow your path of saying, windowblinds is using stolen graphics too! See how ridiculous and disrespectfull that is?
Please, before saying something as bold as stolen, get your facts straight, Brad.
I promised myself to stay out of all of this forgood, but I find this offending and disrespectfull to some artists.
Reply #59 Tuesday, September 7, 2004 12:32 PM
Reply #60 Tuesday, September 7, 2004 12:51 PM
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Reply #41 Monday, September 6, 2004 9:35 PM
Grim: Blaming me personally for "killing" Aqua-Soft is pretty damn offensive.
It's my fault that a bunch of people threw a fit that the owners of Aqua-soft put up a news item about 2 video tutorials I made?
Is that what you're saying? That by encouraging the posting of NON-Avedesk related content on Aqua-Soft I am the cause of its demise?
If you want to "blame" anyone for the problem blame the Avedesk zealots who tried to enforce an iron grip on what was and wasn't acceptable to be discussed on Aqua-Soft as if they were owners of the site.
I know if I was the owner of a site I'd be pretty ticked off if a bunch of users started trying to tell me what was acceptable to talk about or not. Especially if those users who were complaining were boosting for an app that is only very loosely related to the site's central purpose.