Blog: Drama on Aqua-Soft
Saturday, September 4, 2004 by Frogboy | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
(decided to make this a forum post since it's not really news)
For this blog I'll have to put on my special flame-resistant outfit.  Our friends at Aqua-Soft have shut down their forums after a dramatic inter-developer spat broke out. I was in the middle of it and for my part in that discussion I feel bad.  So what happened?
First a little background. Aqua-Soft is a customization website that specializes in helping users make Windows look more Mac-like. Since WindowBlinds, ObjectDock, IconPackager, ObjectBar and DesktopX have long been used to that end by many users. Stardock has long been on there in various ways.  But I hadn't been on there much until recently because of my work on The Political Machine.  Now that that game is out at the stores, the next things on my list to work on were ObjectDock Plus and DesktopX 2.2 both of which had late summer release schedules. 
But when I went back to Aqua-Soft I was startled by how much its community had changed.
The site admins are great guys who really have worked hard to make the site a place that is friendly for developers and users. But the content of the site had slowly become very AveDesk oriented.  AveDesk is a program that essentially lets you take dock plugins (such as for ObjectDock) and put them on your desktop sort of like DesktopX widgets.  How did the site become so oriented that way? Why AveDesk instead of other widget-type programs like Kapsules, Samurize, or DesktopX? Because those programs all have their own website, own forums, and own libraries whereas AveDesk does not so they gravitated to Aqua-Soft.  So just as users WinCustomize.com tend to be users of DesktopX and WindowBlinds, users on Aqua-Soft had become vocal supporters of AveDesk. Which is fine until they start trying to antagonize other developers/programs.
When I went onto the DesktopX forum and wrote a post on DesktopX 2.2, one user actually wrote "Hmm, this sounds like a Payware version of AveDesk" (not even close).  When a news item on IconX was made, several AveDesk users went on and wrote things like "AveDesk can do this better" (no, it has nothing to do with IconX).  Other developers have noticed this trend as well.  In one discussion, an Aqua-Soft news moderator actually accused us of scheduling DesktopX 2.2's release around AveDesk's 1.1's release to interfere with it.  This would be akin to accusing Microsoft of scheduling Longhorn's release to conflict with SkyOS.
So with that back-drop, I submitted a news item to Aqua-Soft of the DesktopX video tutorial I did the other day. And like I said, the guys who run Aqua-Soft are very fair minded. They've been doing this for a long time and know what they're doing.
Then all hell broke lose. If you think people ripping on IconX or saying it's not as good as AveDesk was bad, the response to this news item was much worse.  The first response was from the AveDesk developer himself who publicly complained that a news item for a video tutorial wasn't appropriate.  Now bear in mind, on Aqua-Soft, the AveDesk developer gets to directly post news items. He has a developer's blog where he can put his development status reports (and does) as front page news items on the site.  I don't object to that. I don't object to that AT ALL.  I make blogs posts like this here on WinCustomize.com (of course, I work for the company that owns the site).  But for someone whose own personal development blogs get posted as front page news items on Aqua-Soft to publicly complain about a 3 line news item about a video tutorial seemed like quite a double standard.  Which I said so. 
And if I thought it was rough having AveDesk advocates zinging every DesktopX or IconX related news item or post, it was nothing compared to when the developer himself had taken a public stance. It was like a clarion call for its advocates to rush in. 
Eventually the news item comments were closed but a forum post was made at which point the entire process repeated with everyone getting angrier and angrier.  The AveDesk developer felt I was putting words in his mouth. I felt he was demanding a double standard and oblivious to how much benefit he received from Aqua-Soft. And I also felt under-siege as his fans came to his defense. His fans essentially argued that since his program is free he should get special treatment.  And besides, I was "forcing" DesktopX down their throat because I had become active in posting there in the run-up in DesktopX 2.2's release. So  post after post about AveDesk is fine, but if I write about DesktopX in the DesktopX forum I'm forcing people to use DesktopX. DesktopX has WinCustomize they argued (implying that AveDesk should have Aqua-Soft even though Aqua-Soft is supposed to be a neutral site).
The AveDesk fans basically took the view that while it okay to basically flame and impugn me or DestopX and its users, merely disagreeing (and I mean the polite cannon was on maximum power) was considered forbidden by its fans (I wish I could link to the thread so you wouldn't have to take my word for it but to see it for yourself). Literally the mere concept of other apps, particularly non-free ones, being given an equal shake was totally unacceptable to the AveDesk fans. Ave was "part of the community", the rest of us were not.
That was when I threw up my hands and gave up on the forums. It reminds me a bit of the whole Style XP thing where at first its developers were giving it away and had no forums so users gravitated over to Neowin and because Neowin is a neutral site, it gave the impression that Style XP (and later msstyles) must be really popular because everyone was talking about it there and few were talking about WindowBlinds. That effect hasn't gone away entirely but now that its developers have their own forums, things on skinning sites have evened out much more though msstyles discussion, not having an official home, tend to gravitate out on various sites.  So in other words, I'd been through that pain before and I wasn't going to go through it again. 
If the site's users want Aqua-Soft to be THE AveDesk marketing/channel where other developers could expect to have AveDesk fans pile on every time there's a discussion/post/news item about a "competing" program then forget it.  Soon after that the owners (who again I want to stress are very fair minded, this is not their fault and as an admin I know the feeling have losing control over the direction of the site, JoeUser.com often feels like it's gotten totally out of hand) closed the forums.
And bear in mind, all this came to a head over the same exact news item we have here on the DesktopX object video tutorial which received about a dozen responses total.
Hopefully things will return to normal as it is a good site and the people who run the site are great guys. But I also think that the AveDesk fans need to be a LOT more tolerant and realize that Aqua-Soft is supposed to appeal to all users who are trying to "Aquify" their PCs. If they want to have a partisan site to promote AveDesk then they need to create their own, not latch onto a site with a proud 3+ year old history.
Reply #2 Saturday, September 4, 2004 4:28 PM
So, why don your asbest suit on your own turf?
Reply #3 Saturday, September 4, 2004 4:46 PM
Crae: If it was a news item post I think you'd see more views.
I think over the years because we've talked so much you see things from many perspectives.
But there are a LOT LOT LOT of people who really see a fundamental difference between how freeware should be treated and non-freeware (evne though DesktopX is effectively freeware).
The view of these people seems to be: If it is freeware, it should get more promotion than non-freeware. I.e. sure, there's a double standard but quit your crying about it you greedy capitalist pig! 
Reply #4 Saturday, September 4, 2004 4:54 PM
I want to also make sure it's clear that I don't think AveDesk's developer is the bad guy here either.
We've all seen MacOS advocates in action and MSStyles advocates in action and so forth. This was the same kind of thing where AveDesk's supporters seemed intent on taking over the site and controlling its content. Which is not what Aqua-Soft has been aboutn. It's always been a neutral site.
Reply #5 Saturday, September 4, 2004 4:59 PM
True Cream of the Crop rises to the Top by itself, and its reputation, it requires no flame wars or Jihad type movements to sustain its' momentum. Also I guess there are alot of Clueless folks out there. Sucks to be them!
Reply #6 Saturday, September 4, 2004 5:02 PM
Reply #7 Saturday, September 4, 2004 6:10 PM
I take a bit of pride in my Aquifying, as silly as that sounds.So here we have users who are literally *obsessed* with making their Windows box look and act just like a Mac box. (Sidebar: I can hear the grumblings of "Why don't you just buy a Mac?". Well, I would've bought a Mac last year, but 2 apps that I depend on for both business and pleasure are XP-only, and I didn't want to invest the money or the time I'd have to spend learning the Mac counterparts. The software alone would have run into the thousands of dollars to buy and hundreds of hours to learn. So I'll happily settle for the surface appearances of OSX.) There are free icon sets, free msstyles, free wallpapers, free cursors, free docks, free hacked control panel applets and free hacked system files. Almost everything is Mac-able, almost everything is free and life is good. But wait: here comes Konfabulator. Now we don't have a 1:1 desktop any more and we sure as heck don't have a free Konfab. I can almost hear the sighs of disappointment. Until AveDesk. AVE gave hope to the ones that were hopeless. I figure that is what has engendered the fanatical loyalty so I'm not really surprised by the vicious attack on Brad the Interloper. I don't condone, on any level, that kind of verbal assault - I'm only stating that I think I understand where it came from.
(Warning: self-congratulatory hype is next.) I've paid for Object Desktop, a WC subscription, Cursor XP Plus and OD+. My opinion is that I've gotten a really good deal because I've enjoyed every minute that I've spent customizing my computer. I would be willing to bet that the loudest voices over at Aqua-Soft haven't ever paid a dime for any of the stuff they use. To anyone. Ever.
Keep up the good work, Brad. Y'all make really good stuff.
Jeff

EDIT: punctuation
[Message Edited]
Reply #8 Saturday, September 4, 2004 9:03 PM

Reply #9 Saturday, September 4, 2004 9:46 PM
Well, in this particular case I think it went too far. Especially so since I don't understand what AveDesk (while being a nice app) has anything to do with Aqua. It's just widgets. It doesn't make your desktop, your windows or anything look like OSX. OK, so OS 10.3 will have widgets too, but it's even released yet, and it's only a tiny aspect of the Mac OS that most people won't even use or even be aware of. Why place so much emphasis on this? 
But anyhow, aside from this particular issue, regarding this quote from Brad:
| But there are a LOT LOT LOT of people who really see a fundamental difference between how freeware should be treated and non-freeware |
I guess I am among those people, if only for the reason that commercial software have the financial means to promote their software, so it's always nice to help the little guy if his product is good.  It doesn't stop me from recommending a commercial application if I love it, but in my book a commercial product needs to be extra great in order to gain my "blessing", not that it would need it.  
Reply #10 Saturday, September 4, 2004 11:23 PM
PAK protectors....love Larry Niven

Reply #11 Sunday, September 5, 2004 12:15 AM
it is sad that they have taken over that site and are ruining it for those who use progs other than avedesk... sad part is they (unless drastic measures are taken) they will probably force the closure of the site .... moderators can get tired .. and give up or get sick of trying to take their site back from unruley users... razor art is an example....i feel for the sites admins ..its hard to watch a few mean spirited people try to destroy their site ...
i hope that all works out and the admins can get their site back....
[Message Edited]
Reply #12 Sunday, September 5, 2004 1:27 PM
Paxx: What about "freeware" that takes PayPal donations? The line starts to get blurred. 
But here is my concern: Communities can take many paths. The path that I don't like seeing with the Avedesk community is that they seem to want to tear down others.
Remember when Style XP first came out? Or how many MSStyles people are today? They're not about saying why you should use their thing. Instead, it has always seemed to me to be about telling you why everyone else sucks.
The Samurize community doesn't go around slamming everyone else. The Kapsules advocates don't go around spreading propaganda.  It seems that something in the Avedesk community has made it much more hostile and militant than the others. 
And by every metric I have available, Avedesk NOT that popular. It is not Avedesk that worries me. It is the idea that its users will go around trashing us like the MSStyles people did.
The whole modern "Stardock is evil" thing really didn't get started until October of 2001.  Go back and do a webarchive on news items on various websites of WindowBlinds 2.x from before then and the comments are all friendly and positive.  Then, starting in October 2001, these MSSTyles people started coming on and ragging on it everywhere I'd go.
On CNET's Download.com, WindowBlinds USED to average around a 90% thumbs up rate and that was in the 1.x era.  Today, even though WindowBlinds is infinitely better than it was, we're lucky to stay above 70% thanks to all the "WB sux" posts.
Before the growth of the MSStyles "community" we just didn't see this kind of negativity.  After, however, we started hearing about how bad system hooks were (even though MSSTyles uses them too but they didn't know that) or how much memory WindowBlinds uses (even though it uses less than msstyles) or saying how it crashes all their apps (..right..) or you name it.
And I bet many people here think MSStyles are really popular right? They're not.  ThemeXP.org, for instance, isn't nearly as popular as WinCustomize is. WindowBlinds skins get far more verifiable downloads than msstyles.  So it doesn't take a huge number of people to misrepresent something.
That's what seems to be unique about the Avedesk community compared to the other programs. They would build up Avedesk while tearing down everyone else. It has the undertones of zealotry too.
Consider this "review" of Avedesk:
http://aquaxp.com/index.php?p=11
Forget for a moment that it was written by the same person who makes the Avedesk tutorial (it would be like us posting a "review" of DesktopX by Martin who writes the DX tutorial).  While I think it's a pretty good review overall, it's clear that the author thinks that Avedesk is the greatest thing since sliced bread eclipsing everything else.  Moreover, in the comments, someone who clearly has an anti-Stardock agenda is going to write the DesktopX review.  This is exactly the type of thing I'm talking about.  A fan writes the Avedesk review and then a Stardock detractor writes the DesktopX review (to be fair, the DX review hasn't been posted but you can imagine).
Luckily, none of the mainstream sites are going to carry this stuff. But repeat the same things over and over again and mark my words, six months or a year from now you'll have people saying completely inaccuarate things about DesktopX based on negative "marketing" from Avedesk proponents. 
And if we defend ourselves, it'll be just like with Style XP all over again. Us pointing out that Style XP "works" by patching one byte of memory in uxtheme.dll to enable unsigned msstyles will be called a "brutal attack" or worse even as its proponents write the most inaccurate things about our software.
At least Avedesk's author seems like an honorable person and a truly good guy.  But I definitely don't like the direction that its community is going. I don't want to see Avedesk propped up by its supporters by tearing down our stuff or anyone else's stuff.
Sorry so long. You know me.

Reply #13 Sunday, September 5, 2004 1:59 PM
The vitriol spewed against Stardock for expecting to receive money in exchange for their products is mind-boggling. As was mentioned already in this thread, I doubt those who screech the loudest about their product loyalty ever bothered to pony up and support the authors in any real, tangible way. I just don't get it.
I sure hope things can get sorted out as I too had noticed that the folks in charge of Aqua soft seemed to really be above this sort of petty squabbling.

Reply #14 Sunday, September 5, 2004 3:02 PM
There was a reason AveDesk was all over aqua-soft. I'll try to explain - in my crappy english - why.
AveDesk as a project, started completely on the aqua-soft website. At the time I was a semi-daily visitor/poster on aqua-soft, and through private discussion with some other members, the idea to create the application was born. When the first version of avedesk was released, it was released as an aqua-soft.org-only community application. For me and others, it was a fun project which we shared thru the forums of aqua-soft.
A lot of things for AveDesk are created with the "aquafying" thing in mind, often with a lot of aqua-soft members helping.
I guess that's the mean reason some of aqua-soft members are so protective/aggressive/fanatic about avedesk: they consider it as their own application.
When I released a new version of the application after six months - just some weeks before desktopX 2.2 was released, a lot of people got really hyped up about it and went over a line in responding to others.
Anyhow, that's the background.
Now, what happened, from my point of view: Recently, on aqua-soft there was a big discussion on what direction aqua-soft should go: going the diehard way, all aqua, or allowing other themes too. This discussion, which Brad wasn't aware of I think, has also been held thru private communication channels, like MSN Messenger. With that discussion still in mind, I made a comment about one newsitem, which, IN MY HUMBLE OPINION, was not related to anything aqua, so shouldn't be posted directly on the frontpage of the site, because this was the kind of stuff some people on A~S had problems with.
From there, things went kinda ugly, with a lot of "fanboys" coming in to defend their application to death. So the sites administrator wisely closed commenting on the particular newsitem.
A night later, and several hatefull e-mails in my inbox ( and I don't doubt Brad will have some too) later, the discussion was being continued, in an even worse manner.
For me, it was enough at that point. I am currently spending more than four hours a day on something that was supposed to be fun, and with all the extra crap: it was enough for me.
I don't know why timan [ a-s admin] ultimately decided to close aqua-soft forum, but I am at a point where I don't care anymore.
I think I have already apologized to Brad for anything offending I might have said as well as for not giving my comments thru more private channels. If not, please take this as my apologies.
For me, it's no fun anymore at the moment. I need to think if I feel the need to continue with any of my customization-applications.
Andreas (also known as AVE).
P.S. Frogboy, that blog was just something I did out of request for timan [a~s site owner].
Oh, and if we are going to use our own custom-made smileys:

Reply #15 Sunday, September 5, 2004 3:49 PM
Reply #16 Sunday, September 5, 2004 4:58 PM

Looks like many more people will flock to DX (or will they? )
Good luck in any case.
Aleksandar (Unbeliever)
Reply #17 Sunday, September 5, 2004 5:51 PM
I guess since they cannot post underhanded and snide comments over there, that they will invade WC. I can see this one coming, it needs to be nipped in the Bud. NOW!
Reply #18 Sunday, September 5, 2004 6:28 PM
kill my acount, im not comeing here any more.
have a nice day.
Reply #20 Sunday, September 5, 2004 6:43 PM

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Reply #1 Saturday, September 4, 2004 4:27 PM
This kinda reminds me of the squabbles we had here, over HoverDesk, and other shell Enhancing Software to include as Sections. Maybe this crowd is a little more Seasoned, due to the early fighting alot of Folk went through Over at SkinZ, and having GOOD and Responsible Moderators Here that worked through all that, and are concientious about what they do.
It's hard to loose sight of the Ball, when ya got your Eyes on it.
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