Blog: Drama on Aqua-Soft
Saturday, September 4, 2004 by Frogboy | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
(decided to make this a forum post since it's not really news)
For this blog I'll have to put on my special flame-resistant outfit.  Our friends at Aqua-Soft have shut down their forums after a dramatic inter-developer spat broke out. I was in the middle of it and for my part in that discussion I feel bad.  So what happened?
First a little background. Aqua-Soft is a customization website that specializes in helping users make Windows look more Mac-like. Since WindowBlinds, ObjectDock, IconPackager, ObjectBar and DesktopX have long been used to that end by many users. Stardock has long been on there in various ways.  But I hadn't been on there much until recently because of my work on The Political Machine.  Now that that game is out at the stores, the next things on my list to work on were ObjectDock Plus and DesktopX 2.2 both of which had late summer release schedules. 
But when I went back to Aqua-Soft I was startled by how much its community had changed.
The site admins are great guys who really have worked hard to make the site a place that is friendly for developers and users. But the content of the site had slowly become very AveDesk oriented.  AveDesk is a program that essentially lets you take dock plugins (such as for ObjectDock) and put them on your desktop sort of like DesktopX widgets.  How did the site become so oriented that way? Why AveDesk instead of other widget-type programs like Kapsules, Samurize, or DesktopX? Because those programs all have their own website, own forums, and own libraries whereas AveDesk does not so they gravitated to Aqua-Soft.  So just as users WinCustomize.com tend to be users of DesktopX and WindowBlinds, users on Aqua-Soft had become vocal supporters of AveDesk. Which is fine until they start trying to antagonize other developers/programs.
When I went onto the DesktopX forum and wrote a post on DesktopX 2.2, one user actually wrote "Hmm, this sounds like a Payware version of AveDesk" (not even close).  When a news item on IconX was made, several AveDesk users went on and wrote things like "AveDesk can do this better" (no, it has nothing to do with IconX).  Other developers have noticed this trend as well.  In one discussion, an Aqua-Soft news moderator actually accused us of scheduling DesktopX 2.2's release around AveDesk's 1.1's release to interfere with it.  This would be akin to accusing Microsoft of scheduling Longhorn's release to conflict with SkyOS.
So with that back-drop, I submitted a news item to Aqua-Soft of the DesktopX video tutorial I did the other day. And like I said, the guys who run Aqua-Soft are very fair minded. They've been doing this for a long time and know what they're doing.
Then all hell broke lose. If you think people ripping on IconX or saying it's not as good as AveDesk was bad, the response to this news item was much worse.  The first response was from the AveDesk developer himself who publicly complained that a news item for a video tutorial wasn't appropriate.  Now bear in mind, on Aqua-Soft, the AveDesk developer gets to directly post news items. He has a developer's blog where he can put his development status reports (and does) as front page news items on the site.  I don't object to that. I don't object to that AT ALL.  I make blogs posts like this here on WinCustomize.com (of course, I work for the company that owns the site).  But for someone whose own personal development blogs get posted as front page news items on Aqua-Soft to publicly complain about a 3 line news item about a video tutorial seemed like quite a double standard.  Which I said so. 
And if I thought it was rough having AveDesk advocates zinging every DesktopX or IconX related news item or post, it was nothing compared to when the developer himself had taken a public stance. It was like a clarion call for its advocates to rush in. 
Eventually the news item comments were closed but a forum post was made at which point the entire process repeated with everyone getting angrier and angrier.  The AveDesk developer felt I was putting words in his mouth. I felt he was demanding a double standard and oblivious to how much benefit he received from Aqua-Soft. And I also felt under-siege as his fans came to his defense. His fans essentially argued that since his program is free he should get special treatment.  And besides, I was "forcing" DesktopX down their throat because I had become active in posting there in the run-up in DesktopX 2.2's release. So  post after post about AveDesk is fine, but if I write about DesktopX in the DesktopX forum I'm forcing people to use DesktopX. DesktopX has WinCustomize they argued (implying that AveDesk should have Aqua-Soft even though Aqua-Soft is supposed to be a neutral site).
The AveDesk fans basically took the view that while it okay to basically flame and impugn me or DestopX and its users, merely disagreeing (and I mean the polite cannon was on maximum power) was considered forbidden by its fans (I wish I could link to the thread so you wouldn't have to take my word for it but to see it for yourself). Literally the mere concept of other apps, particularly non-free ones, being given an equal shake was totally unacceptable to the AveDesk fans. Ave was "part of the community", the rest of us were not.
That was when I threw up my hands and gave up on the forums. It reminds me a bit of the whole Style XP thing where at first its developers were giving it away and had no forums so users gravitated over to Neowin and because Neowin is a neutral site, it gave the impression that Style XP (and later msstyles) must be really popular because everyone was talking about it there and few were talking about WindowBlinds. That effect hasn't gone away entirely but now that its developers have their own forums, things on skinning sites have evened out much more though msstyles discussion, not having an official home, tend to gravitate out on various sites.  So in other words, I'd been through that pain before and I wasn't going to go through it again. 
If the site's users want Aqua-Soft to be THE AveDesk marketing/channel where other developers could expect to have AveDesk fans pile on every time there's a discussion/post/news item about a "competing" program then forget it.  Soon after that the owners (who again I want to stress are very fair minded, this is not their fault and as an admin I know the feeling have losing control over the direction of the site, JoeUser.com often feels like it's gotten totally out of hand) closed the forums.
And bear in mind, all this came to a head over the same exact news item we have here on the DesktopX object video tutorial which received about a dozen responses total.
Hopefully things will return to normal as it is a good site and the people who run the site are great guys. But I also think that the AveDesk fans need to be a LOT more tolerant and realize that Aqua-Soft is supposed to appeal to all users who are trying to "Aquify" their PCs. If they want to have a partisan site to promote AveDesk then they need to create their own, not latch onto a site with a proud 3+ year old history.
Reply #23 Sunday, September 5, 2004 7:54 PM
Reply #24 Sunday, September 5, 2004 7:55 PM
And BTW, I also am into theming and do the OSX interface layout most of the time. But that is what is so great about customisation software as good as what we have available. You can do just about anything you want so I say you should be free to do whatever you want with it and not have someone get on your case saying if you like it so much why don't you just run out and buy the computer it's based on. Being able to do as much customisation as you can with this software puts the personal into personal computer. Like for example on my user account I have the OSX layout, on my admin account I have a blackbox shell running instead. In the past I have done many other looks and I like that freedom. I say just because you are using windows that doesn't mean you have to like having the titlebar, desktop shell, etc. the way microsoft thinks you should want it. That's the reason why themes where made in the first place and the reason why I chose themes over just running my system using the classic appearence.
Reply #25 Sunday, September 5, 2004 8:10 PM
Unbeliever: I didn't receive any emails from you suggesting that I PM you news items. I did, however, receive emails from Deadzombie suggesting that I email him news items and Deadzombie is an admin on Aqua-Soft.  I did see your public posts suggesting I send you PMs of news items but that was after the fact. Besides, Deadzombie is an admin on Aqua-Soft. 
I don't pretend to know the internal politics of Aqua-Soft but as an "outsider", an admin is an admin.  If someone emails Jafo a news item and he posts it, I can't imagine Paxx yelling at the person who sent the email to Jafo for having sent the email.
Given the number of times we've gone to bat for Aqua-Soft when dealing with Apple's legal department, the suggestion that we somehow are out against Aqua-Soft is absurd. Everyone can appreciate the volunteer efforts of people who make software or skins but I can assure you, our attorneys aren't volunteers and cost money. Money that we happily have spent helping our community (not just WC).  It was I that got Aqua-Soft into Wired Magazine this past year.  There are a lot of people who have pulled for Aquq-Soft over the years so it's pretty offensive to suggest I have any ill-intent for the site.
Andreas: The issue on Aqua-Soft isn't that you objected to a news item on a DesktopX tutorial (we can agree to disagree) but because of the volume of Avedesk fanboys on Aqua-Soft, when you publicly objected to the news item (ironcially, Unbeliever doesn't seem to suggest that the objections to the news items coudl have been handled privately) it brought the wrath of the Avedesk fanboys.
If anyone is to blame for the shutting down of the forums, it's the Avedesk fanboys who got out of control. I would challenge anyone to find one post by me or anyone who agreed with the position I took that was even remotely rude or nasty.
Running a site is a difficult job. And it's often a thankless job. The guys who run aqua-soft have worked hard to create a nice place for developers and users to hang out and talk about aquifying their desktops. And what thanks to they get? Moderators and users turning against them because they had the nerve to defend/support OTHER software developers like us who have been supporting them since the beginning.
Reply #26 Sunday, September 5, 2004 8:24 PM
Within the last three months I've seen that completely change. Andreas (author of AveDesk) has always come across as a fairly reasonable person and has even jumped into my forums from time to time to make some friendly suggestions - which is in a great spirit, and the guy writes some nice code. However...
Apparently the hordes which guard over the land of AveDesk have never heard the phrase 'There's more than one way to skin a cat'. Thats what programmers do, and how we are usually borne into it - We dont nessesarily like how an app functions, so we roll our own.
I've gotten so discusted with the hard-on that every-other aqua-soft member has for Andreas and AveDesk that I've all but stopped posting and submitting news to the site. It's to the point where no one is even willing to listen to another soul about application creation if their name isnt Andreas. Its a real bummer for a recreational programmer.
My 2 cents - If youre gonna run a community to server the general interest for a given topic, dont allow an author to pimp his/her application 24/7. Give them a sub-domain - anything other than that. Everyone can now clearly see the result of such action. I hope they re-open in their former glory. If they re-open without change I hope they allow me to run a search for recent posts which dont include AveDesk - it should cut down the 3+ pages down to 1/2 page.

Reply #27 Sunday, September 5, 2004 8:33 PM
I think we can agree it's not Andreas's fault.  Andreas has always behaved in an honorable way - giving freely of his time to help others.
But there is something not quite right about the community around Avedesk.  Can you imagine, for example, what would happen if Samurize's community were that militant? There's a LOT more of them than there are Avedesk users. Luckily, they take a live and let live type of view.
I think Avedesk has simply reached the popularity point where it needs its own site and its own forum to drain off some of the zealots from the "neutral" sites.
As a side note, widgets, in all forms, are pretty iffy in the "aqua" world anyway. Dashboard isn't out and it's not really delivering widgets in teh same way as any of these programs.  So once on that slippery slope, objecting to talking about other widget programs and beyond gets to be a tougher thing.
Reply #28 Sunday, September 5, 2004 8:46 PM
However, despite the visibility that these people clearly had at A-S I think it would be inaccurate to say that there were more supporters of AveDesk than of, say, Samurize or DesktopX there. The amount of coverage it was getting was really because AveDesk 1.1 had recently been released and so people were testing out its limits - interested in seeing exactly what it was capable of and what its developers could be talked into adding.
Stardock is also not without its fervent supporters (just read back through this thread). Personally I've always been slightly envious of people who see things in such a black-and-white manner. Their life must be much simpler than mine.
Oh well. Hopefully this will get sorted out, the fanatics will come to realize that the world is not quite so simple and we will achieve world peace by Christmas.
Reply #29 Sunday, September 5, 2004 9:00 PM
)I would bet there were no real problems between you and Brad,seems some others just couldnt behave like grownups.All this fuss over a informative tutorial involving desktop customisation is just silly.We're all here(or there) because we thinks its great(sometimes even important).I hate to see this kind of negativity and backbiting...we should support all developers in there endeavors,paid or not.
I still dont see why any of this was even a problem...
Reply #30 Sunday, September 5, 2004 9:16 PM
Judge: Certainly there are Stardock supporters too.  But I don't think you'll find moderators/admins here publicly suggesting that Ave was ripping off features from DesktopX or that the timing of Avedesk 1.1 was designed to compete with DesktopX 2.2's very much anticipated release.
Similarly, I don't think an Avedesk news item here would get a bunch of "Sounds like a washed down version of DesktopX".  People here tend, on teh whole, to be pretty open to trying out different things.
I want to be on Avedesk's side. I've been very vocal in that I would like all the native Windows widget programs to cooperate more closely, lest Konfabulator come over to Windows and wash them all out in a wave of hype (you can almost imagine the headlines "Konfabulator teaches Windows to do Widgets" or some other such nonsense).
But it's hard to do that if one of the sites that "gets" the whole Widget has so many fanboys supporting Avedesk that non-Avedesk talk gets swept away.
Reply #31 Sunday, September 5, 2004 11:32 PM
-Jeff
[Message Edited]
Reply #32 Sunday, September 5, 2004 11:39 PM
That's how I feel too. Widgets are things you can run together.
There is no need to attack one.
Reply #33 Monday, September 6, 2004 12:14 AM
[Message Edited]
Reply #34 Monday, September 6, 2004 1:45 AM
Reply #35 Monday, September 6, 2004 1:56 AM
c242: That's what I fear.   It really doesn't take that many people to spoil things for everyone else.  I think Neowin has come a LONNNG way since the 2001/2002 time when even me posting a comment on a skin would bring someone on there crying foul.
The whole anti-commercial thing has, fortunately, petered out quite a bit. But it's still lingering around. But in the Avedesk community, Samurize and Kapsules gets their ire as well and they're free.
Like HG says, people should just use what works. And there's no need to run one product down because you can intermix them.
Reply #36 Monday, September 6, 2004 3:46 AM
Aqua-Soft does need to change admittedly and I agree that AveDesk needs it's own site. I'm sure that would help the development of the app and I know that many would be willing to help support the site via hosting (myself included) and donation as it has been up until now.
I just hope AveDesk doesn't die out, but I can understand if Andreas does not want to put up with any more issues arising from it.
I'm sure there will be even more Stardock bashing now also... a great shame all around.

Reply #37 Monday, September 6, 2004 6:01 AM
Smoke's post was right on the money. If everyone thought the same way he does, the skinning/theming scene would be a lot more enjoyable again, and there would be a lot more respect going around.
Reply #38 Monday, September 6, 2004 7:24 PM
ok, im gonna take a breather here. cuase people are throwing my name around like they know what im about.
ive been at aqua soft for a year, and i have NEVER seen such a sturr as what happend. and im NOT one of the people who posted in the news thread at aqua soft that started the huge flame war. i have acutally had nothing to do with any flaming, i just got home from a long day and saw that my site, wich i post all of my work at was closed. and that may never open again. and i was pissed off. if your in my shoes and part of a comunity that may never exist again u would be pissed too. im sorry if i jumped the gun or was wrong when i posted here.
BUT. do any of u know what yoru takling about when u say aves fans, and the mob that backs up ave. cuase im pritty sure that doesn't exist. if u can point out what the hell your talking about ill apoligies.
all i know is eveything was fine. then people started talking about whats better ave or desktop x. and why do u use this when u could use that. maybe some people should just let it be, post that something exists, and let the user make up his own mind as to what to use. but hey. probalby dont have to worrie about that. cuase ave sounds like hes not making anything. or a nouther native aqua soft dev named alilm, but hey we dont need them anyway right...
ok, continue bashing me. cuase im sure u know me and your fully researcing the kind of person i am to make judgements on me

Reply #39 Monday, September 6, 2004 7:28 PM
#18 by grim53 - 9/5/2004 6:28:44 PM
thanks for killing aqua soft, your a moron if u think people will just pick avedesk over anything else bacuase it is at aqua soft. different people will use different things to suit there needs. i have seen many threads at aquasoft by u acusing aqua soft memebers of backing up ave, and its just not true. you have managed to make this seem like something its not. congrats. and aquasoft is closed now.IF it opens up again it will be drimaticly differnt.AWSOME. GOOD JOB.
kill my acount, im not comeing here any more.
Reply #40 Monday, September 6, 2004 7:36 PM

Please login to comment and/or vote for this skin.
Welcome Guest! Please take the time to register with us.
There are many great features available to you once you register, including:
- Richer content, access to many features that are disabled for guests like commenting on the forums and downloading skins.
- Access to a great community, with a massive database of many, many areas of interest.
- Access to contests & subscription offers like exclusive emails.
- It's simple, and FREE!








Reply #21 Sunday, September 5, 2004 7:30 PM
so all of you throwing hate and crap, pat yourselves on the back, well done...
Andreas is a solid individual with honor and deserving respect, Brad is not different.
sad...
really sad.