New Browser
Sunday, July 18, 2004 by MGiff | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
I've got to get away from Internet Explorer but I'm not sure what browser I want. Can any of you tell me my options and what makes them good?
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sig101
Reply #23 Monday, July 19, 2004 5:11 PM
Reply #23 Monday, July 19, 2004 5:11 PM
Unless it's changed since I last used it, Symantec's online checker (like many if not most online scanners of this kind) needs IE because it uses ActiveX. It downloads an ActiveX component (which is a amall program really) to your computer to do its thing.
ActiveX allows websites to do cool things however if you have it completely enabled (not set to prompt where at least you can choose whether or not to let a site run an ActiveX control on your PC although that can be a pain when you get a lot of prompts), that means any site you visit can use ActiveX to put stuff on your PC without your knowledge. Which is how a lot of spyware gets on PC's. (Also javascript can also be used to load exploits through the browser.)
Some of the newer known IE vulnerabilites, not entirely yet patched by MS, can allow exploits if any scripting is enabled. Of course you'd have to actually run into a site that has such exploits on them. But a recent incident where "good" sites (which were not publicly named) had their servers compromised and included a malicious script that apparently planted a keylogger on visitors' PC's showed that it's not just going to known "questionable" sites that can result in problems. http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1105_2-5247187.html?tag=zdfd.newsfeed While MS issued a patch, it reportedly doesn't really prevent these sorts of exploits and the recommendation is to disable all scripting, including javascript, while using IE. Bummer. >
Anyway, just be careful out on the WWW.
ActiveX allows websites to do cool things however if you have it completely enabled (not set to prompt where at least you can choose whether or not to let a site run an ActiveX control on your PC although that can be a pain when you get a lot of prompts), that means any site you visit can use ActiveX to put stuff on your PC without your knowledge. Which is how a lot of spyware gets on PC's. (Also javascript can also be used to load exploits through the browser.)
Some of the newer known IE vulnerabilites, not entirely yet patched by MS, can allow exploits if any scripting is enabled. Of course you'd have to actually run into a site that has such exploits on them. But a recent incident where "good" sites (which were not publicly named) had their servers compromised and included a malicious script that apparently planted a keylogger on visitors' PC's showed that it's not just going to known "questionable" sites that can result in problems. http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1105_2-5247187.html?tag=zdfd.newsfeed While MS issued a patch, it reportedly doesn't really prevent these sorts of exploits and the recommendation is to disable all scripting, including javascript, while using IE. Bummer. >
Anyway, just be careful out on the WWW.
Now I'm confused...................
Essencay
Reply #26 Monday, July 19, 2004 5:37 PM
Reply #26 Monday, July 19, 2004 5:37 PM
MGiff....yrag and IPlural have listed in other threads what amounts to the "practice safe browsing" Guide. Maybe one of them will indulge us here with a list of must haves to be running to keep our PC's from getting knocked up with a little unwanted critter, while still using IE 
I use IE6 and stay up to date with MS's updates. Norton's Antivirus and firewall, both up to date. I run adaware and spybot on a regular basis. My ISP...earthlink also provides me with a popup blocker, cookie killer, spyware blocker and a favorites stripper (strips tracking info from links you save). Also they scan my mail for viruses and spam, before it gets to my PC. My email addy is readily available through searching google and I only get about 3-4 pieces of spam a week and haven't been attacked by a virus, since I stupidly used my old email address on the MS newsgroup almost a year ago. Even then Norton's caught all the attacks.
I use IE6 and stay up to date with MS's updates. Norton's Antivirus and firewall, both up to date. I run adaware and spybot on a regular basis. My ISP...earthlink also provides me with a popup blocker, cookie killer, spyware blocker and a favorites stripper (strips tracking info from links you save). Also they scan my mail for viruses and spam, before it gets to my PC. My email addy is readily available through searching google and I only get about 3-4 pieces of spam a week and haven't been attacked by a virus, since I stupidly used my old email address on the MS newsgroup almost a year ago. Even then Norton's caught all the attacks.
sig101
Reply #27 Monday, July 19, 2004 5:41 PM
Reply #27 Monday, July 19, 2004 5:41 PM
Why are you confused, MGiff? If you're going to use IE or an IE shell (like MyIE2 my favorite IE shell) you should tighten up IE's security settings. I posted a couple links above to help. As I mentioned the more secure your settings the more likely some functionalities will be limited on some sites. Unfortunately browser security involves some tradeoffs of general functionality. Some really trusted sites can be put in IE's trusted zone, but IMO that should be used sparingly. (By the way, I recommend that one should tighten up IE's settings as long as IE is still on the PC, including installing all IE security updates since IE is part of the OS and some shared components are likely running or IE components can be invoked by another program or perhaps something on a web site one may visit. Even if you don't use IE to browse the net.)
Using another browser like Firefox, Mozilla or Opera generally is considered safer than IE for some of the reasons I noted above. That doesn't mean they make you absolutely safe on the net, nothing doees that unless you unplug your PC. But they are considered safer than using IE since so many b*stards have geared spyware and exploits to IE which is used by the vast majority of people online.
I also use Proxomitron, a web filtering app, to block ads, popups, etc. And some folks have made some filters that block some javascript stuff from doing things it shouldn't be doing. (I use JD5000's Proxomitron filter set, just in case anyone's interested.) I use this with all browsers and I think it does add a bit to security while I still have some functionality.
Online security is a matter of tradeoffs and risk management. No silver bullet. Sorry if I confused you, and don't want to scare you, but if you can be more specific about what's confusing you? It's just I spend some time on security forums and gads there are so many people who have been zapped by spyware, etc and it sometimes can be a nightmare to clean up some of this stuff. I don't claim to be an expert but I've learned a bit from people who are.
Using another browser like Firefox, Mozilla or Opera generally is considered safer than IE for some of the reasons I noted above. That doesn't mean they make you absolutely safe on the net, nothing doees that unless you unplug your PC.
But they are considered safer than using IE since so many b*stards have geared spyware and exploits to IE which is used by the vast majority of people online. I also use Proxomitron, a web filtering app, to block ads, popups, etc. And some folks have made some filters that block some javascript stuff from doing things it shouldn't be doing. (I use JD5000's Proxomitron filter set, just in case anyone's interested.) I use this with all browsers and I think it does add a bit to security while I still have some functionality.
Online security is a matter of tradeoffs and risk management. No silver bullet. Sorry if I confused you, and don't want to scare you, but if you can be more specific about what's confusing you? It's just I spend some time on security forums and gads there are so many people who have been zapped by spyware, etc and it sometimes can be a nightmare to clean up some of this stuff. I don't claim to be an expert but I've learned a bit from people who are.
tjesterb
Reply #28 Monday, July 19, 2004 5:46 PM
Reply #28 Monday, July 19, 2004 5:46 PM
MGiff, why don't you just try out a couple alternate browsers and decide which one YOU like best, after all only you can make the final decision. I've tried Opera, Mozilla, and Firefox. My personal favorite is Firefox, with Thunderbird as Email client [nice built in spam filters] One of the extensions I addes to my Firefox is called IEVIEW which allows you to view any toublesome pages in IE. ALL Mozilla browsers also allow you to import all your IE Favorites. I'm sure with a little experimenting you'll find what the one that works best for you.
Essencay
Reply #29 Monday, July 19, 2004 5:48 PM
Reply #29 Monday, July 19, 2004 5:48 PM
my apologies sig for not including you in the above post, MGiff...sig knows her stuff ....I'll go sit in a corner now.
....I'll go sit in a corner now.
sig101
Reply #30 Monday, July 19, 2004 5:57 PM
Reply #30 Monday, July 19, 2004 5:57 PM
bordfryr: Netscape is part of the Mozilla clan, an ancestor so to speak. I may be stating it a bit broadly, but basically the Netscape code was made open source and given to the Mozilla folks. So the Mozilla and Firefox browsers are the descendants of Netscape. Netscape is a bit old now so a number of Netscape fans have switched to Mozilla since it's still being developed and supported.
sig101
Reply #31 Monday, July 19, 2004 6:06 PM
Reply #31 Monday, July 19, 2004 6:06 PM
No prob, Essencay. Gary and IP can run rings around me on just about everything PC related. 
I'm just a PC security groupie.
Yeah MGiff, as tjesterb said, just check out various browsers and see how it goes. You have to be comfortable with whatever you use.
By the way, you haven't mentioned why you want to try something other than IE. Are you concerned about security? (Which is why some people have switched, that and/or they've gotten hooked on tabbed browsing.) Or have you been having problems with IE?
I'm just a PC security groupie. Yeah MGiff, as tjesterb said, just check out various browsers and see how it goes. You have to be comfortable with whatever you use.
By the way, you haven't mentioned why you want to try something other than IE. Are you concerned about security? (Which is why some people have switched, that and/or they've gotten hooked on tabbed browsing.) Or have you been having problems with IE?
MGiff
Reply #32 Monday, July 19, 2004 6:29 PM
Reply #32 Monday, July 19, 2004 6:29 PM
Sig, I keep reading and reading about the holes in IE and after several worms and viruses have invaded our family website I want to try other options. I run 2 spyware programs, AVG, 2 pop up blockers and a firewall. Am I just paranoid or am I doing enough? I don't want to be responsible for others in the family being infected but I don't want to be too paranoid. I have gotten so much good advice here, from you especially, and some great opinions and I'm gonna try one browser at a time. Right now I'm trying Opera. Once I've figured out tabbed browsing, I'll let ya'll know about it!
sig101
Reply #33 Monday, July 19, 2004 6:49 PM
Reply #33 Monday, July 19, 2004 6:49 PM
No you're not being paranoid. Unfortunately we need to be a bit "paranoid" with all the crap online now. It wasn't so bad years ago (the good old days, lol). Although I don't know why you'd need two popup blockers? Which ones are you using? (I know some popups are using some newer techniques intended to get around the usual blockers.)
What I'm most concerned about is your family website...is it hosted on your ISP? Another hosting site? Or are you actually running a server hosting your own site? Just trying to figure the situation to try and see if/how the web site was indeed compromised. That may be another issue that a browser tweak or change alone won't help. It depends.
Dumb but basic question: how do you know the family's website was compromised? Were people's AV's alerting on it or were they getting infections and then trying to figure where they were to get infected. What kinds or worms/viruses? While some can be transmitted by a compromised site/server to an unprotected browser, perhaps the majority of worms are either network worms that can be blocked by a firewall or email worms that require someone opening an attachment or file and no updated AV to catch 'em.
Just trying to narrow down the options of how people got infected and if the website was really the point or transmission. Can't tell without more info.
(Just btw, some people say they hate tabbed browsing...well they don't have to use it on Opera or Moz or Firefox, but it is an option that many of us have gotten used to. I like the latest Opera much more than the earlier versions fwiw. Firefox is cool too but Opera has been around longer and is a bit more "seasoned." Plus Opera also has its email progam and other doodads included for those who want to use them. It's just a matter of preference and which one you find easier to get used to. I have Firefox too but I've found myself mainly just using Opera at home.)
[Message Edited]
What I'm most concerned about is your family website...is it hosted on your ISP? Another hosting site? Or are you actually running a server hosting your own site? Just trying to figure the situation to try and see if/how the web site was indeed compromised. That may be another issue that a browser tweak or change alone won't help. It depends.
Dumb but basic question: how do you know the family's website was compromised? Were people's AV's alerting on it or were they getting infections and then trying to figure where they were to get infected. What kinds or worms/viruses? While some can be transmitted by a compromised site/server to an unprotected browser, perhaps the majority of worms are either network worms that can be blocked by a firewall or email worms that require someone opening an attachment or file and no updated AV to catch 'em.
Just trying to narrow down the options of how people got infected and if the website was really the point or transmission. Can't tell without more info.
(Just btw, some people say they hate tabbed browsing...well they don't have to use it on Opera or Moz or Firefox, but it is an option that many of us have gotten used to. I like the latest Opera much more than the earlier versions fwiw. Firefox is cool too but Opera has been around longer and is a bit more "seasoned." Plus Opera also has its email progam and other doodads included for those who want to use them. It's just a matter of preference and which one you find easier to get used to. I have Firefox too but I've found myself mainly just using Opera at home.)
[Message Edited]
tjesterb
Reply #34 Monday, July 19, 2004 7:30 PM
Reply #34 Monday, July 19, 2004 7:30 PM
I'll go sit in the corner with Essencay....looks like sig101's got this one covered.
Essencay
Reply #35 Monday, July 19, 2004 7:44 PM
Reply #35 Monday, July 19, 2004 7:44 PM
http://secunia.com/advisories/12027/ A hole in the Mozilla browser that makes it possible for attackers to launch unauthorized applications or crash computers.
http://secunia.com/advisories/12028/ A flaw in the Opera Web browser which can fool users into believing they're on a trusted Web site when they aren't.
Just pointing out that no browser is perfect. The popularity of IE alone makes it more desirable to evildoers to exploit.
Essencay goes back to his corner
http://secunia.com/advisories/12028/ A flaw in the Opera Web browser which can fool users into believing they're on a trusted Web site when they aren't.
Just pointing out that no browser is perfect. The popularity of IE alone makes it more desirable to evildoers to exploit.
Essencay goes back to his corner
IPlural
Reply #36 Monday, July 19, 2004 8:50 PM
Reply #36 Monday, July 19, 2004 8:50 PM
http://archive.ncsa.uiuc.edu/SDG/Software/mosaic-w/
They all started here for the most part.
NCSA Mosaic Platforms:
NCSA Mosaic for the X Window System
NCSA Mosaic for the Apple Macintosh
NCSA Mosaic for Microsoft Windows
It has all come a long way since ARAPNET and NREN..
WWW has definitly come a long way since 1992 when released by CERN. Sad thing is, it has not kept up with the bloat, INet2 is up and running but that isn't going public any time soon me thinks...
They all started here for the most part.
NCSA Mosaic Platforms:
NCSA Mosaic for the X Window System
NCSA Mosaic for the Apple Macintosh
NCSA Mosaic for Microsoft Windows
It has all come a long way since ARAPNET and NREN..
WWW has definitly come a long way since 1992 when released by CERN. Sad thing is, it has not kept up with the bloat, INet2 is up and running but that isn't going public any time soon me thinks...
TYBSP
Reply #37 Monday, July 19, 2004 9:46 PM
Reply #37 Monday, July 19, 2004 9:46 PM
Whatever became of black screens with white type. No one ever screwed with my computer on the old local BBS 
sig101
Reply #38 Monday, July 19, 2004 10:34 PM
Reply #38 Monday, July 19, 2004 10:34 PM
For history buffs devavu.org has some interesting info, a browser timeline and browser emulators: http://www.dejavu.org/ And evolt.org has archived browsers too: http://browsers.evolt.org/
(BTW Tim Berners-Lee, often called the inventor of the WWW, was knighted last week by Queen Elizabeth. A couple articles here: http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20040719/wr_nm/tech_internet_inventor_dc_1 )
(BTW Tim Berners-Lee, often called the inventor of the WWW, was knighted last week by Queen Elizabeth. A couple articles here: http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20040719/wr_nm/tech_internet_inventor_dc_1 )
IPlural
Reply #39 Monday, July 19, 2004 10:42 PM
Reply #39 Monday, July 19, 2004 10:42 PM
lol... lived it, don't miss it...
though I did run a BBS and was a FIDO Hub.
I do miss that to some extent.
though I did run a BBS and was a FIDO Hub.
I do miss that to some extent.
tjesterb
Reply #40 Monday, July 19, 2004 10:43 PM
Reply #40 Monday, July 19, 2004 10:43 PM
In regards to #35: Mozilla had updates available in less than 24 hours, MS is lucky to get it in 24 days, and these security flaws in Mozilla, Firefox, & Opera, unless I'm mistaken, do not open up the users PC to the same level of vulnerability since third party browsers are not linked to the OS as IE is.
Sig101 feel free to back me up.......or shoot me down if I'm wrong......tjesterb thinks he will find his own corners from now on....
[Message Edited]
Sig101 feel free to back me up.......or shoot me down if I'm wrong......tjesterb thinks he will find his own corners from now on....
[Message Edited]
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Reply #21 Monday, July 19, 2004 1:27 PM