Censorship Vs free expression
Sunday, September 28, 2003 by Jafo | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
On a publicly accessible 'Family' website, what are YOUR thoughts regarding the line beyond which no-one should cross?
What is considered 'inappropriate' to you?
And why?
Needless to say, this is not the forum for boundary crossing but an open discussion on where lines really SHOULD be drawn.
I will be at pains to stress that at no time is there a 'double standard' being applied and to suggest such is insulting to the reputation/s and moral conduct of the moderators here.
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going to lurk in this one....
SuperheroCanadian
Reply #23 Sunday, September 28, 2003 10:38 PM
Reply #23 Sunday, September 28, 2003 10:38 PM
I dont think the issue is whether kids get access to the interent, its how they have been tought to deal with problems outside of a family enviroment. I my self am i kid, i started out on the internet at 11 back when windows 95 just came out, but that doesnt matter. The point is if kids havnt been taught by there family to take things ina certain way they have no right to be on the internet, and since this is a family site, if parents cant suck it up and teach there kids to act responible they dont deserve to be on the internet as well. I think it takes more responability and self restraint to exist ona family friendly site then it doeson anyother site. Im glad we pride ourselves in that.
Aleatoric
Reply #24 Sunday, September 28, 2003 11:00 PM
Reply #24 Sunday, September 28, 2003 11:00 PM
Tough question.
Not sure that censorship vs free expression is entirely the issue, though. Since this is a privately owned and operated site, the owner pretty much has final say on the content.
Thing is, the line can be pretty blurry. After all, it's possible to have a discussion with a fairly mature subject and dialogue, yet that does not have any actual profanity or other overt references. In the eyes of some, such a discussion is not suitable for younger folks (I know of some to whom teenagers aren't allowed to engage in such discussion).
Additionally, I know of some teenagers (for example) who are more mature, and better able to cope with such dialogue than are some 'adults'.
Profanity isn't such a clear cut subject, either. With some exceptions, some of what is termed profanity can be, in another context, merely descriptive, or even harmless. On the other hand, it's perfectly possible to completely insult and denigrate someone without a single word of profanity.
I think the best method is to have some basic ground rules where certain behaviour is not tolerated (and that may include specifying certain words or phrases as off limits, which, while not necessarily always bad, rarely lend themselves to mature conversation), and enforcing that evenly across the board.
One of the earlier polls done here determined the average age of the participants here, and we're generally a bit older than those among other fora of this type. Hopefully, that also translates to a bit more overall maturity as well (and by and large, that's what I see here, and what I like about it).
Certainly, there's no pleasing everyone. No matter how strict (or not) the moderators here try to be, there will be someone who is displeased, in one direction or the other, about the content on this board. I personally know adults who would blow a fuse at the earlier creation vs evolution thread we had here a while back (not the thread per se, but the mere thought of discussing the idea), let alone think it was appropriate for children. And it was much more mild than similar discussions I've had on other boards.
Personally, I've had no reason to think that the administrators here have done anything but the best that they can, nor that they've been anything but evenhanded.
I don't think that there's any hard and fast line to be drawn, apart from a few good rules. Mostly, it's going to have to be judged on a case by case basis. There will be some obvious offenders, and there may be some dialogue that should stay, even if it isn't entirely unoffensive. I think the context of the discussion should influence the decision.
[Message Edited]
Not sure that censorship vs free expression is entirely the issue, though. Since this is a privately owned and operated site, the owner pretty much has final say on the content.
Thing is, the line can be pretty blurry. After all, it's possible to have a discussion with a fairly mature subject and dialogue, yet that does not have any actual profanity or other overt references. In the eyes of some, such a discussion is not suitable for younger folks (I know of some to whom teenagers aren't allowed to engage in such discussion).
Additionally, I know of some teenagers (for example) who are more mature, and better able to cope with such dialogue than are some 'adults'.
Profanity isn't such a clear cut subject, either. With some exceptions, some of what is termed profanity can be, in another context, merely descriptive, or even harmless. On the other hand, it's perfectly possible to completely insult and denigrate someone without a single word of profanity.
I think the best method is to have some basic ground rules where certain behaviour is not tolerated (and that may include specifying certain words or phrases as off limits, which, while not necessarily always bad, rarely lend themselves to mature conversation), and enforcing that evenly across the board.
One of the earlier polls done here determined the average age of the participants here, and we're generally a bit older than those among other fora of this type. Hopefully, that also translates to a bit more overall maturity as well (and by and large, that's what I see here, and what I like about it).
Certainly, there's no pleasing everyone. No matter how strict (or not) the moderators here try to be, there will be someone who is displeased, in one direction or the other, about the content on this board. I personally know adults who would blow a fuse at the earlier creation vs evolution thread we had here a while back (not the thread per se, but the mere thought of discussing the idea), let alone think it was appropriate for children. And it was much more mild than similar discussions I've had on other boards.
Personally, I've had no reason to think that the administrators here have done anything but the best that they can, nor that they've been anything but evenhanded.
I don't think that there's any hard and fast line to be drawn, apart from a few good rules. Mostly, it's going to have to be judged on a case by case basis. There will be some obvious offenders, and there may be some dialogue that should stay, even if it isn't entirely unoffensive. I think the context of the discussion should influence the decision.
[Message Edited]
goodmorphing
Reply #25 Sunday, September 28, 2003 11:09 PM
Reply #25 Sunday, September 28, 2003 11:09 PM
goodmorphing wipes away all the erasing.
We try to follow the basic idea... treat people like you want to be treated. Keep your fighting and private moments for messenger. No flaming, even in jest.... there are too many people that use that as a sport, the more they can disrupt a community the better they like it. Since we do encourage young people to join, we take it to be our responsibility to maintain a safe environment for them. No glorification of drinking, no drugs, no porn. A good, spirited debate is fine, all the better if people stop and take the time to be eloquent. Cheap jokes, cheap humor, cheap shots are easy to come by but they are just as easily forgotten. Innuendo, skeletonized words that are obviously disallowed language are treated as that which they allude to. Racism, sexism, religious slurs and hate remarks aimed at people of difference are not allowed.
It is hard to be in the position of censor and I have lost some sleep because of it. But at the end of the day, my guideline is ... Does it hurt anyone, or incite behavior that will hurt someone. Is it fair? I might not like something, but it is not up to me to decide what other people might like (so many times I am as much the censored as the censoree). Is it something I would be comfortable sharing with a 10-year-old or with a 90-year-old grandmother? Does it expose the writer, or another identifiable person to harm or ridicule.
.... and when I take action, or when I have doubts, I copy the thing and pass it up to the manager.
We try to follow the basic idea... treat people like you want to be treated. Keep your fighting and private moments for messenger. No flaming, even in jest.... there are too many people that use that as a sport, the more they can disrupt a community the better they like it. Since we do encourage young people to join, we take it to be our responsibility to maintain a safe environment for them. No glorification of drinking, no drugs, no porn. A good, spirited debate is fine, all the better if people stop and take the time to be eloquent. Cheap jokes, cheap humor, cheap shots are easy to come by but they are just as easily forgotten. Innuendo, skeletonized words that are obviously disallowed language are treated as that which they allude to. Racism, sexism, religious slurs and hate remarks aimed at people of difference are not allowed.
It is hard to be in the position of censor and I have lost some sleep because of it. But at the end of the day, my guideline is ... Does it hurt anyone, or incite behavior that will hurt someone. Is it fair? I might not like something, but it is not up to me to decide what other people might like (so many times I am as much the censored as the censoree). Is it something I would be comfortable sharing with a 10-year-old or with a 90-year-old grandmother? Does it expose the writer, or another identifiable person to harm or ridicule.
.... and when I take action, or when I have doubts, I copy the thing and pass it up to the manager.
Styl-X Design
Reply #26 Monday, September 29, 2003 12:13 AM
Reply #26 Monday, September 29, 2003 12:13 AM
Clean language, and ENGLISH not stoopid typing like e=3 etc.
XX
Reply #27 Monday, September 29, 2003 12:22 AM
Reply #27 Monday, September 29, 2003 12:22 AM
It's pretty diffult question.
Basically I avoid cuss words, unless proper useage comes up, such as 'Crap, my computer got on fire and I lost everything!' but words such as 4 letter F word, other word for crap, and even word that starts at A and ends with hole is totally unacceptable to me. Usually I even avoid hints of previous words, but I gonna say it this time.
I agree on flaming issue, flaming is good for only one use, which is cooking stuff.
I wish there was a invention that uses flames as car fuel, we would never run of that kind of fuel.
Now, There is such thing as good criticism. Such as 'Your wallpaper is great, but I noticed that thingy could use a better placment, I don't like large text on wallpaper, etc'. Something like 'You and your wallpaper sucks' is just a flame.
If someone brings up the freedom of speech, I always tought that owner(s) of website can do whatever he/she/they wants on the site, basically, you own the site, you're a king or queen of that site.
Besides we need more of family type sites.
My only annoyance is people that types worse than people with english as second or even 5th language. Certain poster comes to my mind.
Basically I avoid cuss words, unless proper useage comes up, such as 'Crap, my computer got on fire and I lost everything!' but words such as 4 letter F word, other word for crap, and even word that starts at A and ends with hole is totally unacceptable to me. Usually I even avoid hints of previous words, but I gonna say it this time.
I agree on flaming issue, flaming is good for only one use, which is cooking stuff.
I wish there was a invention that uses flames as car fuel, we would never run of that kind of fuel. Now, There is such thing as good criticism. Such as 'Your wallpaper is great, but I noticed that thingy could use a better placment, I don't like large text on wallpaper, etc'. Something like 'You and your wallpaper sucks' is just a flame.
If someone brings up the freedom of speech, I always tought that owner(s) of website can do whatever he/she/they wants on the site, basically, you own the site, you're a king or queen of that site.
Besides we need more of family type sites.
My only annoyance is people that types worse than people with english as second or even 5th language.
Certain poster comes to my mind.
Stockholm Syndrome
Reply #28 Monday, September 29, 2003 12:27 AM
Just one poster??
Nice post btw.
Reply #28 Monday, September 29, 2003 12:27 AM
| My only annoyance is people that types worse than people with english as second or even 5th language. Certain poster comes to my mind. |
Just one poster??
Nice post btw.
Leo the Lion
Reply #29 Monday, September 29, 2003 2:11 AM
Reply #29 Monday, September 29, 2003 2:11 AM
I think there have been times when, if most of us are honest, that we have put something on a thread that we regret later and wish in hindsight that we had kept our mouths shut. In general i find the moderation on this site first class and usually the offenders are given enough rope by the moderators before they hang themselves.
Jafo, not sure what actually prompted your question as this is the first thread i have read this morning however you and KG and all the others Mods do a great job and when people need a pull you certainly handle them well. A thankless but necessary unpaid task which keeps this site what it is - Friendly, Fun and NUMBER ONE.
Jafo, not sure what actually prompted your question as this is the first thread i have read this morning however you and KG and all the others Mods do a great job and when people need a pull you certainly handle them well. A thankless but necessary unpaid task which keeps this site what it is - Friendly, Fun and NUMBER ONE.
IPlural
Reply #30 Monday, September 29, 2003 2:37 AM
Reply #30 Monday, September 29, 2003 2:37 AM
eh....
For me it is a basic thing with basic reasoning.
In private life you decide what might be acceptable and can deal with the fact that you might be wrong.
On a public message board that choice isn't yours to make, you already know if it is right or wrong and will have to deal with the results of your actions.
For me it is a basic thing with basic reasoning.
In private life you decide what might be acceptable and can deal with the fact that you might be wrong.
On a public message board that choice isn't yours to make, you already know if it is right or wrong and will have to deal with the results of your actions.
IPlural
Reply #31 Monday, September 29, 2003 2:41 AM
Reply #31 Monday, September 29, 2003 2:41 AM
oh, on another note...
we, including myself, all of us, need to stop pushing peoples buttons just to get a rise out of them....
everyone knows those who are having their buttons poked and who is doing the poking...
really really...
[Message Edited]
[Message Edited]
we, including myself, all of us, need to stop pushing peoples buttons just to get a rise out of them....
everyone knows those who are having their buttons poked and who is doing the poking...
really really...
[Message Edited]
[Message Edited]
paxx
Reply #32 Monday, September 29, 2003 3:10 AM
Reply #32 Monday, September 29, 2003 3:10 AM
A few thoughts:
Free speech is about the freedom to express your opinion, not about the choice of words. You can still express your opinion while avoiding some offensive language.
I don't think it's so much an age related issue, so much as a respect related one. Remember, it will never offend anybody if you use proper language, while certain words highly disturbs some people.
BoXXi
Reply #33 Monday, September 29, 2003 4:08 AM
Reply #33 Monday, September 29, 2003 4:08 AM
I agree entirely with Paxx, it's common sense and respect. 
RadialFX
Reply #34 Monday, September 29, 2003 4:44 AM
Reply #34 Monday, September 29, 2003 4:44 AM
I agree with Paxx also. To add one other thought. The most common method of creating interaction here (or any site) is by way of a keyboard. I have a hard time accepting the excuse that ANYONE can actually type quicker than he can think. So with me anyway the - I "Spoke" before I thought excuse is only trying to make up for what someone "Typed". I also agree that "All" children "should" have monitored access to the internet, but, the "Real World" is that they aren't. In the "Real World" they do here a lot of language from other "Kids" at school and on the playground. The only thing I see missing from that is that these people or kids they are hearing it from aren't their primary role models which of course are their parents and other adults in general. If a child hears things or sees things at school he most likely won't put the same amount of confidence and trust in that as he will a parent or adult. Also, other kids won't necessarily seem to create approval of the behavior. A parent or adult can very much create an approved type of environment for it. I choose to try to remain a positive role model for the younger generation and don't want to become a part of the same behavior that they are experiencing from other "Kids". I think it puts you on the "Kids" level. I'd rather see them trying to come up to the more rational mature level. Also, the moderators of this site have my upmost respect and I believe they do an exceptional job of trying to maintain a family oriented site. Kudos to you guys.
hashonboat
Reply #35 Monday, September 29, 2003 4:52 AM
Reply #35 Monday, September 29, 2003 4:52 AM
Wondering what this debate is in regards to?
stop pretending you have a penis, strap-ons don't count girlfriend......
nothing in (insert member name here)'s post was objectionable........
The 2nd comment was left by an Admin to someone who felt the 1st comment was objectionable.
I also felt it to be completely inappropriate for a family site. I Think the moderators do a pretty good balancing act with the messageboard here but, in my opinion that comment was over-the-line for a "Family Site"
This was all in a different thread till Jafo wisely moved it over here.
That's what sparked this debate.
stop pretending you have a penis, strap-ons don't count girlfriend......
nothing in (insert member name here)'s post was objectionable........
The 2nd comment was left by an Admin to someone who felt the 1st comment was objectionable.
I also felt it to be completely inappropriate for a family site. I Think the moderators do a pretty good balancing act with the messageboard here but, in my opinion that comment was over-the-line for a "Family Site"
This was all in a different thread till Jafo wisely moved it over here.
That's what sparked this debate.
RadialFX
Reply #36 Monday, September 29, 2003 5:01 AM
Reply #36 Monday, September 29, 2003 5:01 AM
hashonboat, are your remarks towards me? I'm not sure if they are or not. If so maybe I mis-represented my opinion.
Jafo
Reply #37 Monday, September 29, 2003 5:06 AM
Reply #37 Monday, September 29, 2003 5:06 AM
RadialFX....hashonboat just got a bit wobbly with the Quote function....so his post appears somewhat cryptic to the casual viewer......and has nothing to do with your post...
RadialFX
Reply #38 Monday, September 29, 2003 5:10 AM
Reply #38 Monday, September 29, 2003 5:10 AM
Oh, ok Thanks Jafo. I was afraid maybe he took offense to something in my post and that wasn't my intentions at all. Thanks and..... Gooday Mate!
hashonboat
Reply #39 Monday, September 29, 2003 5:20 AM
Reply #39 Monday, September 29, 2003 5:20 AM
No, Sorry Radial! I saw someone mention (don't remember who)that they didn't know what started this & I was just trying to answer without incriminating or directly quoting anyone. It is not my intention to flame anyone so I tried to quote without saying names. I don't think the names are important, or relevant to the subject.
White_Moth
Reply #40 Monday, September 29, 2003 6:06 AM
Reply #40 Monday, September 29, 2003 6:06 AM
It's pretty simple really,
Treat others as you EXPECT to be treated, not as you are treated.
I know it's a slight deviation from the "Golden Rule", but times have changed since it was written.
Remember that this is a World Wide site with instant access worldwide, and no one knows anyone else or their customs on this board except by what we show each other. What may be inoffensive to one human being may be reprehensible to another human being living in a land we have never visited. But should we be so blessed as to visit another foreign land other than our own, we would EXPECT to be treated well and with courtesy.
By respecting others over and above ourselves,it should be simple to maintain free expression towards one another in what we say and how we act negating the need for censorship.
Treat others as you EXPECT to be treated, not as you are treated.
I know it's a slight deviation from the "Golden Rule", but times have changed since it was written.
Remember that this is a World Wide site with instant access worldwide, and no one knows anyone else or their customs on this board except by what we show each other. What may be inoffensive to one human being may be reprehensible to another human being living in a land we have never visited. But should we be so blessed as to visit another foreign land other than our own, we would EXPECT to be treated well and with courtesy.
By respecting others over and above ourselves,it should be simple to maintain free expression towards one another in what we say and how we act negating the need for censorship.
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Reply #21 Sunday, September 28, 2003 10:00 PM
And I couldn't agree with you more that the admin here do an outstanding job... believe me, it's not a responsibility I would want or accept.