Creation vs. Evolution
Thursday, September 11, 2003 by grayhaze | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
I thought I'd pre-empt this discussion before Kona's comment in the other thread sparked it off there. There is concrete proof that we evolved, but no proof that we were created. What's you're opinion, and why?
To quote Phoebe from Friends: "I guess the real question is who put those fossils there and why?"
To quote Phoebe from Friends: "I guess the real question is who put those fossils there and why?"
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No75
Reply #222 Saturday, September 13, 2003 10:41 PM
Reply #222 Saturday, September 13, 2003 10:41 PM
Ok I did a double take when I saw the topic in the list..I think a person's religious beliefs are just that, personal. 
IPlural
Reply #223 Saturday, September 13, 2003 11:03 PM
Thats the one. But it goes a bit deeper from the things I've read. It caused a furor in the church and they denouced it.
I did some looking around after seeing the movie because it seemed to be something important. To see if it realy did/does exist and what became of it.
I like the idea of there being something for those who need outside intervention to keep them as level headed in dealing with others. To help prompt them to live as one with others, so I do not see faith and religion in and of itself as being negative.
But as Jafo pointed out, it has always been used as a tool for those craving power. Even those who wrap themselves in the robes of Earthly divinity.
Isn't there something about "Let no man come before me"? Yet all religions pretty much dictate there are always those above and at some point there is the last above you before you reach God.
TV Evanglisits for one thing really blow me away, remember the Tower of Power?
anyway...
Reply #223 Saturday, September 13, 2003 11:03 PM
| The scroll described in Stigmata was the Gospel of St Thomas, a gnostic document found in Nag Hamadi in the early part of this century. |
Thats the one. But it goes a bit deeper from the things I've read. It caused a furor in the church and they denouced it.
I did some looking around after seeing the movie because it seemed to be something important. To see if it realy did/does exist and what became of it.
I like the idea of there being something for those who need outside intervention to keep them as level headed in dealing with others. To help prompt them to live as one with others, so I do not see faith and religion in and of itself as being negative.
But as Jafo pointed out, it has always been used as a tool for those craving power. Even those who wrap themselves in the robes of Earthly divinity.
Isn't there something about "Let no man come before me"? Yet all religions pretty much dictate there are always those above and at some point there is the last above you before you reach God.
TV Evanglisits for one thing really blow me away, remember the Tower of Power?
anyway...
IPlural
Reply #224 Saturday, September 13, 2003 11:05 PM
Reply #224 Saturday, September 13, 2003 11:05 PM
No. 75, yes they are personal, but that does not mean one can not discuss them with others whom are willing.
It is when it is force fed that it is wrong, beliefs that is.
It is when it is force fed that it is wrong, beliefs that is.
UBoB
Reply #225 Sunday, September 14, 2003 5:31 AM
Reply #225 Sunday, September 14, 2003 5:31 AM
A recent creationist plea is for "balanced treatment" in the classroom: "Let us present creationism along with evolution, so students can make an informed choice. That's only fair isn't it?" (The spirit of fairness doesn't seem to prompt them to invite biologists to present a "balanced treatment" of evolution at revival meetings or Sunday school, though.)
OK, let's go along with it. In 9th grade biology let's do evolution on the first day of the school year--then we'll proceed to "alternative theories of origins" and "intelligent design theories." Tuesday we'll cover the Algonquin creation myth, Wednesday the Shinto, Thursday the Yoruba, Friday--Mayan. Next week it's Pawnee, Inuit, Mogollon, Hindu, and Zoroastrian. We'll get to the Hebrew adaptation of the Babylonian (as recorded in Genesis) the third Thursday in May (if we don't have a fire drill).
One of the Big Lies of creationism is that there are only two alternatives, and that by "defeating evolutionism" (sic), the only possible remaining alternative is the Genesis myth. (Those of us who have Seen the Truth know that the TRUE creation account is that preserved since the Beginning by the !kung bushmen of South Africa.)
OK, let's go along with it. In 9th grade biology let's do evolution on the first day of the school year--then we'll proceed to "alternative theories of origins" and "intelligent design theories." Tuesday we'll cover the Algonquin creation myth, Wednesday the Shinto, Thursday the Yoruba, Friday--Mayan. Next week it's Pawnee, Inuit, Mogollon, Hindu, and Zoroastrian. We'll get to the Hebrew adaptation of the Babylonian (as recorded in Genesis) the third Thursday in May (if we don't have a fire drill).
One of the Big Lies of creationism is that there are only two alternatives, and that by "defeating evolutionism" (sic), the only possible remaining alternative is the Genesis myth. (Those of us who have Seen the Truth know that the TRUE creation account is that preserved since the Beginning by the !kung bushmen of South Africa.)
Aleatoric
Reply #226 Sunday, September 14, 2003 10:21 AM
Reply #226 Sunday, September 14, 2003 10:21 AM
My response to those who clamor for the 'fairness' of equal representation in the classroom is that if they want to teach creationism alongside evolution, then creationism should be subject to exactly the same degree of scientific rigor that evolution is subject to.
Even apart from all the framework of theorems, hypotheses, and observational evidence, one of the primary tenets of scientific rigor is the concept of disprovability.
Without getting into the boring parts, what disprovability means is that the premise needs to be at least theoretically capable of being proved wrong (whether through further observation, refined theories, etc.).
It's a clear bet that the creationists would be singularly unwilling to place the concept of creation (and therefore, God), as being disprovable. Even if it were possible to disprove God, they would balk at the result.
Simply put, the creation story is a matter of faith, and should be taught in the venue of that faith.
Even apart from all the framework of theorems, hypotheses, and observational evidence, one of the primary tenets of scientific rigor is the concept of disprovability.
Without getting into the boring parts, what disprovability means is that the premise needs to be at least theoretically capable of being proved wrong (whether through further observation, refined theories, etc.).
It's a clear bet that the creationists would be singularly unwilling to place the concept of creation (and therefore, God), as being disprovable. Even if it were possible to disprove God, they would balk at the result.
Simply put, the creation story is a matter of faith, and should be taught in the venue of that faith.
paxx
Reply #227 Sunday, September 14, 2003 11:50 AM
Reply #227 Sunday, September 14, 2003 11:50 AM
But isn't both creationism as well as evolutionism both taught in school? The former in religion class and the latter in science class.
Xerraire
Reply #228 Sunday, September 14, 2003 11:58 AM
Reply #228 Sunday, September 14, 2003 11:58 AM
paxx in my state of maryland, there was no such thing as religion class in school. And to be perfectly honest, neither were taught at all.
I.R. Brainiac
Reply #229 Sunday, September 14, 2003 1:44 PM
Reply #229 Sunday, September 14, 2003 1:44 PM
Seems to me they should teach religeous studies right along beside history and social studies.How can you possibly separate them?If everyone understood how other people believe,we might be more tolerant and get along better.
(Hi there X)
(Hi there X)
grayhaze
Reply #230 Sunday, September 14, 2003 3:09 PM
Reply #230 Sunday, September 14, 2003 3:09 PM
What if everyone's right? Is it possible that all of these theories and beliefs can co-exist, or do they all cancel each other out? Perhaps the Christians were created by God, but the Athiests evolved.
UBoB
Reply #231 Sunday, September 14, 2003 3:16 PM
Reply #231 Sunday, September 14, 2003 3:16 PM
Actually, I think the story goes that Adam and Eve were created by God, and at the time I don't believe they had any religious affiliation. After millenia of procreation a group called the Israelites emerged, and well, the story just takes off from there.......
After millenia of procreation a group called the Israelites emerged, and well, the story just takes off from there.......
Koasati
Reply #232 Sunday, September 14, 2003 3:21 PM
Reply #232 Sunday, September 14, 2003 3:21 PM
| #230 by Citizen grayhaze - 9/14/2003 3:09:57 PM What if everyone's right? Is it possible that all of these theories and beliefs can co-exist, or do they all cancel each other out? Perhaps the Christians were created by God, but the Athiests evolved. |
I like that, except I now can't figure out where agnostics came from.......
paxx, I know of no school that has a religion class (other than private, religion based schools).
grayhaze
Reply #233 Sunday, September 14, 2003 3:27 PM
Reply #233 Sunday, September 14, 2003 3:27 PM
Koasati, unless things have changed in the few years it is since I went to school, most schools in the UK teach Religious Education. The subject covers most religions and their beliefs.
Fuzzy Logic
Reply #234 Sunday, September 14, 2003 3:31 PM
Reply #234 Sunday, September 14, 2003 3:31 PM
I've seen enough of this sick world to know exactly where man's origins lie... 
Fuzzy Logic
Reply #235 Sunday, September 14, 2003 3:36 PM
Reply #235 Sunday, September 14, 2003 3:36 PM
Yes, I remember RE at school. I remember also commenting in one of my essays that I thought we were supposed to be at school to learn fact rather than fiction.
All primitive cultures need something almighty to explain away ordinary things they don't understand. Once man evolves into a more knowledgeable being such relics of the past will no longer be of importance.
All primitive cultures need something almighty to explain away ordinary things they don't understand. Once man evolves into a more knowledgeable being such relics of the past will no longer be of importance.
paxx
Reply #236 Sunday, September 14, 2003 5:27 PM
Reply #236 Sunday, September 14, 2003 5:27 PM
Hum unless it changed recently, we still have religion taught in school in Quebec. Except non-religious kids had the choice of taking "morals" instead, which was basically very similar to religion class (catholic) but without any notion of God. Same values were taughts though.
Xerraire
Reply #237 Sunday, September 14, 2003 7:03 PM
Reply #237 Sunday, September 14, 2003 7:03 PM
Paxx,
hehe
not only did we not get religious studies, I can assure you we didn't get values or morals either
Please tell me I am not the only one that was so crudely educated!
I had
no religious studies
no morals
no values
and no evolution either.
hehe
not only did we not get religious studies, I can assure you we didn't get values or morals either
Please tell me I am not the only one that was so crudely educated!
I had
no religious studies
no morals
no values
and no evolution either.
Koasati
Reply #238 Sunday, September 14, 2003 7:07 PM
Reply #238 Sunday, September 14, 2003 7:07 PM
I had none of those in school either Xerraire....... those things were up to our parents.
Xerraire
Reply #239 Sunday, September 14, 2003 7:10 PM
Reply #239 Sunday, September 14, 2003 7:10 PM
K...
Well I got loads of that from my parents, yes indeed.
I am glad you did too.
Well I got loads of that from my parents, yes indeed.
I am glad you did too.
UBoB
Reply #240 Sunday, September 14, 2003 7:45 PM
Reply #240 Sunday, September 14, 2003 7:45 PM
We were taught evolution in science class. A fellow student stood up at the beginning of that lesson. (He was a member of that religion that likes to come to your door at the worst times, you know the ones,...I'll give you a hint.....the Jimi Hendrix song All Along the Watchtower ). Then he began to protest the teaching of evolution without his being allowed to teach a lesson on creationism.
The teacher slapped him down immediately. Told him it was not his class to teach. Everyone in the class applauded.
). Then he began to protest the teaching of evolution without his being allowed to teach a lesson on creationism.The teacher slapped him down immediately. Told him it was not his class to teach. Everyone in the class applauded.
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Reply #221 Saturday, September 13, 2003 10:27 PM
me no understand jiberish.
I R smaRt and think U not smart
I wonder though, what are the phycological effects of religion on a human being. does it help do deal with life and do you live longer (Like for example Budism) or having faith in unexplained things leave you in a state of trouble?