Hello!
Tuesday, July 29, 2003 by adni18 | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
WinCustomize is a great school!
Even if the majority of members here are not children any more(
they still have a lot to learn!
I have learn a lot of things for 2 years now, thanks to you, thanks to positive or negative comments to authors and of course, thanks to messageboard arguments, they were all very useful, for one who likes to learn!
I must say there is a quallity in WinCustomize MessageBoard, you can't find very easy in a public MB.
There are some exceptions though, from some persons, but that's life, in any activity of life there are always some bad exceptions.
You may ask why I am writing all this now, because I have spend too many hours to read some long threads in the messageboard those last couple days, (you know the language problem for the foreigners) and I want to share my thoughts about what I have read with you.
Some really nice people, both sides, they have lost control when they have try to express their thoughts, both ways.
No harm is made, both sides they have understand well what is going on and they have turn down their tones.
I hope and I wish the tones remain like this.
Why all this happening, this is the important question!
I can tell you my opinion, it is the only thing I have to offer you about this problem.
Reason 1:
In the messageboard, there are some people who like to make fun to others, no matter if their fun hurts the others or they want to be accepted as clever or perfect ones. This gives a wrong and bad impression to many people who may think that this is WC.
(By the way, we must not forget that this is an Intenational site and not all are knowing the English language well, so this may be another reason of missunderstanding and wrong conclusions).
Solution to Reason 1:
The admins who are in general nice persons, (nobody wants to have an admin in his site who sending away the people), when the see a post that it is not well-meaning or it looks like an offence to another person, they must interact with good words and try to make them understand that this is not an acceptable post for a quality MB, even if they find it that it is correct or fun for them, but offensive for another person.
In that way those x persons they will learn to behave them selves and be nice for everyone and the offended ones will feel that at least they are among friendly people and mates.
We are a community, we must help each other.
Reason 2:
Some persons, are giving bad rattings not only for the quallity of a work, but also for who the artist is and this is some times not fair at all, this is for the bad and the good rates too, so the artists, who are always very sensitive, (how can any one be an artist
without sensitivity?), are geting hurt in a certain away.
Solution to the Reason 2:
The ratting system is very good for the admins and their friends, they are happy to see their high rates, so they find no reason to change it. I don't mean here that they don't deserve high rattings because they do, but this is not the point.
The point is, that very few are giving rates and the ratting system rules in WC, this doesn't happen in any other site, there are rates, but not so crucial as here. Some works disappear because of one bad rate which has been given for personal or taste reasons!
The solution is obvious.
Reason 3:
The moderation of wallpapers. I know and you know very well all the story, no need to repeat it here.
Solution to the Reason 3:
Make a new section for the wallpapers, a second one and put there all the wallpapers and let people deside which of them are going to be in the main Wallpaper section. A certain number of downloads will make a wallpaper jumb to the main Wallpapers section, please no rattings. If people like something let them have it!
A decent name for this second walls section must not have in any way an offensive name.
A slogan like:
"We are not moderating your wallpapers, we let you
decide" is very friendly and no one can complain and give a headache to moderators.
This site is for the people and from the people!
(I know that Stardock pays for the site )
Wow! Did I wrote so many in English?
Yes I did, because I care!
Please, don't shoot the piano man!
Even if the majority of members here are not children any more(
they still have a lot to learn!I have learn a lot of things for 2 years now, thanks to you, thanks to positive or negative comments to authors and of course, thanks to messageboard arguments, they were all very useful, for one who likes to learn!
I must say there is a quallity in WinCustomize MessageBoard, you can't find very easy in a public MB.
There are some exceptions though, from some persons, but that's life, in any activity of life there are always some bad exceptions.
You may ask why I am writing all this now, because I have spend too many hours to read some long threads in the messageboard those last couple days, (you know the language problem for the foreigners) and I want to share my thoughts about what I have read with you.
Some really nice people, both sides, they have lost control when they have try to express their thoughts, both ways.
No harm is made, both sides they have understand well what is going on and they have turn down their tones.
I hope and I wish the tones remain like this.
Why all this happening, this is the important question!
I can tell you my opinion, it is the only thing I have to offer you about this problem.
Reason 1:
In the messageboard, there are some people who like to make fun to others, no matter if their fun hurts the others or they want to be accepted as clever or perfect ones. This gives a wrong and bad impression to many people who may think that this is WC.
(By the way, we must not forget that this is an Intenational site and not all are knowing the English language well, so this may be another reason of missunderstanding and wrong conclusions).
Solution to Reason 1:
The admins who are in general nice persons, (nobody wants to have an admin in his site who sending away the people), when the see a post that it is not well-meaning or it looks like an offence to another person, they must interact with good words and try to make them understand that this is not an acceptable post for a quality MB, even if they find it that it is correct or fun for them, but offensive for another person.
In that way those x persons they will learn to behave them selves and be nice for everyone and the offended ones will feel that at least they are among friendly people and mates.
We are a community, we must help each other.
Reason 2:
Some persons, are giving bad rattings not only for the quallity of a work, but also for who the artist is and this is some times not fair at all, this is for the bad and the good rates too, so the artists, who are always very sensitive, (how can any one be an artist
without sensitivity?), are geting hurt in a certain away.
Solution to the Reason 2:
The ratting system is very good for the admins and their friends, they are happy to see their high rates, so they find no reason to change it. I don't mean here that they don't deserve high rattings because they do, but this is not the point.
The point is, that very few are giving rates and the ratting system rules in WC, this doesn't happen in any other site, there are rates, but not so crucial as here. Some works disappear because of one bad rate which has been given for personal or taste reasons!
The solution is obvious.
Reason 3:
The moderation of wallpapers. I know and you know very well all the story, no need to repeat it here.
Solution to the Reason 3:
Make a new section for the wallpapers, a second one and put there all the wallpapers and let people deside which of them are going to be in the main Wallpaper section. A certain number of downloads will make a wallpaper jumb to the main Wallpapers section, please no rattings. If people like something let them have it!
A decent name for this second walls section must not have in any way an offensive name.
A slogan like:
"We are not moderating your wallpapers, we let you
decide" is very friendly and no one can complain and give a headache to moderators.
This site is for the people and from the people!
(I know that Stardock pays for the site
)Wow! Did I wrote so many in English?
Yes I did, because I care!
Please, don't shoot the piano man!
 |
|
Page 1 of 9 | |
|
|---|
eieio
Reply #2 Tuesday, July 29, 2003 4:16 AM
Yes you did, adni. And very well too, my friend
Reply #2 Tuesday, July 29, 2003 4:16 AM
| Wow! Did I wrote so many in English?Yes I did, because I care! |
Yes you did, adni. And very well too, my friend
craeonics
Reply #3 Tuesday, July 29, 2003 5:34 AM
Reply #3 Tuesday, July 29, 2003 5:34 AM
Damn adni, were you possessed by the spirit of the frog?
By the way: solution #3 could work, but could just as easily backfire. People rating up their friend's work and what not.
By the way: solution #3 could work, but could just as easily backfire. People rating up their friend's work and what not.
lusciousbeast
Reply #6 Tuesday, July 29, 2003 9:22 AM
Reply #6 Tuesday, July 29, 2003 9:22 AM
i have to agree with you adni. the wallpapers would be a cool idea to have in a seperate thing so the people can judge them and keep them on the main. i also think that WC is accepting some walls that arent the quality that WC was in the past. when i first started here (which was about 2 years ago) the walls were outstanding and very unique, and different, different then what i have ever seen before, now the walls are getting sloppy to me and are just meteocor. i am not judging anyone, just that it seems that the way WC is working is a little different then i guess what i am used to.
lusciousbeast
Reply #7 Tuesday, July 29, 2003 9:23 AM
Reply #7 Tuesday, July 29, 2003 9:23 AM
by the way how come i havent seen much new work of yours lately? thanks for the comments on skinbase. i go under the name beastie on that site. thanks again.
DaWebMassa
Reply #8 Tuesday, July 29, 2003 9:31 AM
Reply #8 Tuesday, July 29, 2003 9:31 AM
Nikos! Hey dude long time no talky. 
Good to see your name here again.
Good to see your name here again.
bucben
Reply #9 Tuesday, July 29, 2003 9:32 AM
Reply #9 Tuesday, July 29, 2003 9:32 AM
Well said my friend You write better english than me too
You write better english than me too
Leo the Lion
Reply #10 Tuesday, July 29, 2003 9:48 AM
Reply #10 Tuesday, July 29, 2003 9:48 AM
Nikos......had a look at your site the other day and its coming along nicely.......Pop by here at WC more often
adni18
Reply #11 Tuesday, July 29, 2003 11:11 AM
Reply #11 Tuesday, July 29, 2003 11:11 AM
Hi elvee!
Thanks pictoratus
Hi craeonics,
#3 by craeonics - 7/29/2003 5:34:32 AM
Damn adni, were you possessed by the spirit of the frog?
By the way: solution #3 could work, but could just as easily backfire. People rating up their friend's work and what not.
I think I wrote "please no rattings".
Thank you Snidely Whiplash
Thank you crissy14
Thank you lusciousbeast, I know both your nick names
Hi Rich, thanks bro
Thank you bucben, I am glad that I am improving my English
Thank you themajor, I am trying
Thanks pictoratus
Hi craeonics,
#3 by craeonics - 7/29/2003 5:34:32 AM
Damn adni, were you possessed by the spirit of the frog?
By the way: solution #3 could work, but could just as easily backfire. People rating up their friend's work and what not.
I think I wrote "please no rattings".
Thank you Snidely Whiplash
Thank you crissy14
Thank you lusciousbeast, I know both your nick names
Hi Rich, thanks bro
Thank you bucben, I am glad that I am improving my English
Thank you themajor, I am trying
MadIce
Reply #12 Tuesday, July 29, 2003 12:15 PM
Reply #12 Tuesday, July 29, 2003 12:15 PM
Andi18: I am Dutch, so you are in luck. My English sucks too.
Pardon me if I disrupt your bowing and waving to the crowd.
I can only find a partial solution.
Also, I don't care if you you people do not like my intonation or if you do not like me, but I clearly have enough of it all.
What really disgusts me is the way I see a war being fought. Whether it is a real war or a war about moderation, ratings and lists. This war has being going on for nearly two years now. There are several ways to end a war:
1) Kill the enemy. Good idea. You will never see them gain. A bit too hostile, though.
2) You can end the war and start working on solutions. This can only work if people are willing to agree.
3) You start using terrorist attacks and continue the war underground. This is the current situation.
This morning (European time), I have read old posts on these issues and the fact that the undergound war is going on for about 2 years now is rather disturbing.
There have been several changes concerning moderation, ratings and lists, but none of these worked because the participants were never willing to agree. Instead they continued to be disgrunted and kept on nagging and whinging and whining for almost two years.
As long as this attitude is not changing then nothing will change.
Changing things will cost time. I will give you an example.
For months now I am trying to get a solution for the fact that skinners do not interact on this site or on other places. Often it looks like all they are interested in are downloads and ratings. It almost looks like skinning has beome a competition. As a result skinners visit this site only for uploading their skins and often they are gone after that. Of course skinners may not want to interact. That is a choise.
So, after talking about this issue with virophile (a friend in the skinning community and a personal friend I know for some time now) the idea of an Experimental Section was born. Most of all we wanted to bring back the fun into skinning. You can read about it at this https://www.wincustomize.com/msgboard.asp?BID=WC&id=148503 . This may or may not be realized. The 3 message board sections we have at the moment are partly the result of that thread.
Now compare the number of posts of the whiners to the reactions on the above thread. You may or may not agree with our idea. But I only wished that the whiners have spend all their time and energy into something like this.
Is this a solution to the moderation problem? Of course not.
After seeing all this uglyness I am convinced that a public rating system (i.e. a system in which the name of the person who rated is known) will NOT work.
The reasons are simple.
1) When a wall is being moderated and does not pass no rejection e-mail is used because of possible personall attacks to the moderators. The same will be true for the raters. I am sure I will be attacked if I find that an Adni18 skin deserves a 4. No matter what my motives are.
2) When the ratings will become vissible then we will see who rated what in the past. An old malicious rater (or what people may view as a malicious rater) will be hunted down.
3) When the ratings will become vissible then we will also see who is voting for who. So, there will be a second group of malicious raters. The ones that vote tens for their "friend(s)". More witch hunts will follow.
The current annonymous rating system is not trusted. The whiners are nagging about it for years. So, that one does NOT work either.
Solution? Get that blasted rating system over and done with and kick it. Find another system that replaces the current bandwidth filter function which the current rating system is supposed to have.
It is hard to find a solution for the moderation problem. Maybe we should leave it like it is. Maybe not.
Whatever the outcome of the discussion (and it may be that the admins decide to leave it like it is) do not nag and whine about it anymore in the future.
Make a page on WC where the outcome as a policy can clearly be read. No discussions anymore about these issues, because there is already too much damage done.
Pardon me if I disrupt your bowing and waving to the crowd.
I can only find a partial solution.
Also, I don't care if you you people do not like my intonation or if you do not like me, but I clearly have enough of it all.
What really disgusts me is the way I see a war being fought. Whether it is a real war or a war about moderation, ratings and lists. This war has being going on for nearly two years now. There are several ways to end a war:
1) Kill the enemy. Good idea. You will never see them gain. A bit too hostile, though.
2) You can end the war and start working on solutions. This can only work if people are willing to agree.
3) You start using terrorist attacks and continue the war underground. This is the current situation.
This morning (European time), I have read old posts on these issues and the fact that the undergound war is going on for about 2 years now is rather disturbing.
There have been several changes concerning moderation, ratings and lists, but none of these worked because the participants were never willing to agree. Instead they continued to be disgrunted and kept on nagging and whinging and whining for almost two years.
As long as this attitude is not changing then nothing will change.
Changing things will cost time. I will give you an example.
For months now I am trying to get a solution for the fact that skinners do not interact on this site or on other places. Often it looks like all they are interested in are downloads and ratings. It almost looks like skinning has beome a competition. As a result skinners visit this site only for uploading their skins and often they are gone after that. Of course skinners may not want to interact. That is a choise.
So, after talking about this issue with virophile (a friend in the skinning community and a personal friend I know for some time now) the idea of an Experimental Section was born. Most of all we wanted to bring back the fun into skinning. You can read about it at this https://www.wincustomize.com/msgboard.asp?BID=WC&id=148503 . This may or may not be realized. The 3 message board sections we have at the moment are partly the result of that thread.
Now compare the number of posts of the whiners to the reactions on the above thread. You may or may not agree with our idea. But I only wished that the whiners have spend all their time and energy into something like this.
Is this a solution to the moderation problem? Of course not.
After seeing all this uglyness I am convinced that a public rating system (i.e. a system in which the name of the person who rated is known) will NOT work.
The reasons are simple.
1) When a wall is being moderated and does not pass no rejection e-mail is used because of possible personall attacks to the moderators. The same will be true for the raters. I am sure I will be attacked if I find that an Adni18 skin deserves a 4. No matter what my motives are.
2) When the ratings will become vissible then we will see who rated what in the past. An old malicious rater (or what people may view as a malicious rater) will be hunted down.
3) When the ratings will become vissible then we will also see who is voting for who. So, there will be a second group of malicious raters. The ones that vote tens for their "friend(s)". More witch hunts will follow.
The current annonymous rating system is not trusted. The whiners are nagging about it for years. So, that one does NOT work either.
Solution? Get that blasted rating system over and done with and kick it. Find another system that replaces the current bandwidth filter function which the current rating system is supposed to have.
It is hard to find a solution for the moderation problem. Maybe we should leave it like it is. Maybe not.
Whatever the outcome of the discussion (and it may be that the admins decide to leave it like it is) do not nag and whine about it anymore in the future.
Make a page on WC where the outcome as a policy can clearly be read. No discussions anymore about these issues, because there is already too much damage done.
Frogboy
Reply #13 Tuesday, July 29, 2003 12:41 PM
Reply #13 Tuesday, July 29, 2003 12:41 PM
My 2 cents...
The rating system we have is compromise based on the requests of different people.
My ideal rating system would be one in which only Journeymen on up could rate a skin. Anyone who has that level of access is someone who has been around a long time and is likely going to take a very responsible view on rating.
I do think ratings are important, I just don't like that so many people can rate. It makes the ratings less effective.
MadIce
Reply #14 Tuesday, July 29, 2003 1:18 PM
Reply #14 Tuesday, July 29, 2003 1:18 PM
My two eurocents...
I am not sure if I can ask this, but IMHO it would be a Good Thing (tm) to give GreenArmani his voice back. It does not help when we are trying to work on a solution for the long term and there is still someone who is treated as a dissident.
I am not sure if I can ask this, but IMHO it would be a Good Thing (tm) to give GreenArmani his voice back. It does not help when we are trying to work on a solution for the long term and there is still someone who is treated as a dissident.
I.R. Brainiac
Reply #15 Tuesday, July 29, 2003 1:19 PM
Reply #15 Tuesday, July 29, 2003 1:19 PM
I would certainly trust that over the drive-by ratings slashing thats going on now.Yesterday was the first day I have been able to see the ratings on other peoples work and I was appaled at how easily the system is abused.It only took one person to drop me from view by the public.Thanks to Jafo for fixing that for me.
sig101
Reply #16 Tuesday, July 29, 2003 1:20 PM
Reply #16 Tuesday, July 29, 2003 1:20 PM
"My ideal rating system would be one in which only Journeymen on up could rate a skin. Anyone who has that level of access is someone who has been around a long time and is likely going to take a very responsible view on rating."
Sounds good to me. What are the arguments against this proposal?
Sounds good to me. What are the arguments against this proposal?
MadIce
Reply #17 Tuesday, July 29, 2003 1:22 PM
Reply #17 Tuesday, July 29, 2003 1:22 PM
Brad, I do think the ratings system should go. It was the cause of many problems in past and I am certain it will be the cause of many problems in the future. Again for the reasons I gave in post #12.
Keila
Reply #18 Tuesday, July 29, 2003 1:26 PM
Reply #18 Tuesday, July 29, 2003 1:26 PM
I am personally afraid to rate things that I do not think deserve a good rating. I will only rate something if it deserves a 8 or above for the most part. I would not rate something low to hurt anyone but there are things here that do deserve a 2 or a 4. I just would hate for someone to find out I rated it that way.
I.R. Brainiac
Reply #19 Tuesday, July 29, 2003 1:31 PM
Reply #19 Tuesday, July 29, 2003 1:31 PM
Same here Keila ,I went back and apologized to the only person i ever gave a bad rating to.(it was for pig)I had to give them a 5 just to ease my guilty conscience.So few people even bother to rate it makes one too low or too high make too much difference.
Gregory2001
Reply #20 Tuesday, July 29, 2003 1:38 PM
Reply #20 Tuesday, July 29, 2003 1:38 PM
Which is why ratings don't work. This "person" now has a rating that is too high.
Please login to comment and/or vote for this skin.
Welcome Guest! Please take the time to register with us.
There are many great features available to you once you register, including:
- Richer content, access to many features that are disabled for guests like commenting on the forums and downloading skins.
- Access to a great community, with a massive database of many, many areas of interest.
- Access to contests & subscription offers like exclusive emails.
- It's simple, and FREE!
|
|
Page 1 of 9 | |
|
|---|
Reply #1 Tuesday, July 29, 2003 4:15 AM
Wallpapers...I can only think of two things...keep them without moderation or getrid of them
BTW...Hi Nikos