The Skin Patch Debate
Monday, February 24, 2003 by Frogboy | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
There is a new technology being developed but its eventual available form will be heavily dependent on the input of thousands of users such as you.
Each year, thousands of skins are created and released. Skins take many many hours to create. But often times, once released, they are never updated. As the software for these skins gains in function, these skins come to look outdated and are no longer used. The proposed answer: Skin patching.
Please read this next part carefully: What Skin patching does is allow third parties to submit updates to an existing skin. But these updates do not contain any parts from the original skins. Instead, they only contain the pieces that have been updated. Or in other words, patches are completely seperate files in themselves. The actual "patching" takes place in software. It would download the original skin and then the updates would be provided as additional sub-styles. If the user applies one of those sub-styles, the program the original skin and then includes the updates when it applies.
For example, let's say someone created a really nice WindowBlinds skin in 2001. But this skin doesn't support Windows XP Start bars, doesn't support the task panel (shellstyle), doesn't support the slider control nor does it support the logon/logoff dialog skinning.
Five different users could submit "patches" to this skin.
Patch 1 would just have the task panel (shellstyle).
Patch 2 would just be the logon/logoff dialog skinning
Patch 3 would have the have the XP Start bar
Patch 4 would have the slider control
Patch 5 would be another rendition of the task panel and it would have the XP Start bar and the logon/logoff skinning.
On a site like WinCustomize (or any other site that supported this technology), when the user chose to download the skin, it would bring up a dialog asking which patches (if any) a user would like to also download.
Once downloaded, when the user went to apply the skin it would bring up a dialog asking which patches they would like to apply. The updates would be displayed to user by widget (so patch 5 contains 3 widgets whereas the others are 1 widget each) to choose which pieces to use.
In this way, older skins could be updated by fans and the original effort to create the skin would be rewarded by keeping the skin fresh and new over the long term.
So where is the debate? How much say should the skin author have? WinCustomize is known for being very protective of skin author rights. But there is the conflict in wanting skin authors work to be kept useful and worthwhile over the long run. Obviously any skin patch that used the original author's graphics would need express written consent. But what about skin patches that don't use any of the graphics from the original skin? I.e. a Shellstyle wouldn't need graphics from the original skin and neither would an XP Start bar. Additionally, what policies should be by default?
Stardock's view is to make it so that the original skin author has the right to deny any skin patches be made for their skin (or at least displayed as part of the skin). Additionally, it believes that original author should have the right to reject individual skin patches from being displayed. But there is also the matter on what the default is. By default, should skin patches be allowed on skins where the author is long gone? Stardock's view is presently that skin patches on those skins would be allowed based on the discretion of the moderator and if the original author returns they can then change the setting if they so choose. This way, the thousands of existing skins can gain a second life and it is Stardock's view that the vast majority of MIA skin authors would prefer that. Moderators would still reject any skin patch that used artwork from the original skin without express written consent however.
What's your view?
Each year, thousands of skins are created and released. Skins take many many hours to create. But often times, once released, they are never updated. As the software for these skins gains in function, these skins come to look outdated and are no longer used. The proposed answer: Skin patching.
Please read this next part carefully: What Skin patching does is allow third parties to submit updates to an existing skin. But these updates do not contain any parts from the original skins. Instead, they only contain the pieces that have been updated. Or in other words, patches are completely seperate files in themselves. The actual "patching" takes place in software. It would download the original skin and then the updates would be provided as additional sub-styles. If the user applies one of those sub-styles, the program the original skin and then includes the updates when it applies.
For example, let's say someone created a really nice WindowBlinds skin in 2001. But this skin doesn't support Windows XP Start bars, doesn't support the task panel (shellstyle), doesn't support the slider control nor does it support the logon/logoff dialog skinning.
Five different users could submit "patches" to this skin.
Patch 1 would just have the task panel (shellstyle).
Patch 2 would just be the logon/logoff dialog skinning
Patch 3 would have the have the XP Start bar
Patch 4 would have the slider control
Patch 5 would be another rendition of the task panel and it would have the XP Start bar and the logon/logoff skinning.
On a site like WinCustomize (or any other site that supported this technology), when the user chose to download the skin, it would bring up a dialog asking which patches (if any) a user would like to also download.
Once downloaded, when the user went to apply the skin it would bring up a dialog asking which patches they would like to apply. The updates would be displayed to user by widget (so patch 5 contains 3 widgets whereas the others are 1 widget each) to choose which pieces to use.
In this way, older skins could be updated by fans and the original effort to create the skin would be rewarded by keeping the skin fresh and new over the long term.
So where is the debate? How much say should the skin author have? WinCustomize is known for being very protective of skin author rights. But there is the conflict in wanting skin authors work to be kept useful and worthwhile over the long run. Obviously any skin patch that used the original author's graphics would need express written consent. But what about skin patches that don't use any of the graphics from the original skin? I.e. a Shellstyle wouldn't need graphics from the original skin and neither would an XP Start bar. Additionally, what policies should be by default?
Stardock's view is to make it so that the original skin author has the right to deny any skin patches be made for their skin (or at least displayed as part of the skin). Additionally, it believes that original author should have the right to reject individual skin patches from being displayed. But there is also the matter on what the default is. By default, should skin patches be allowed on skins where the author is long gone? Stardock's view is presently that skin patches on those skins would be allowed based on the discretion of the moderator and if the original author returns they can then change the setting if they so choose. This way, the thousands of existing skins can gain a second life and it is Stardock's view that the vast majority of MIA skin authors would prefer that. Moderators would still reject any skin patch that used artwork from the original skin without express written consent however.
What's your view?
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werewolf
Reply #2 Monday, February 24, 2003 4:59 PM
Reply #2 Monday, February 24, 2003 4:59 PM
I agree in part. There might end up being 10 updates (or more) to the shellstyle section for one skin.
This is important stuff...you're on the right track.
This is important stuff...you're on the right track.
Frogboy
Reply #3 Monday, February 24, 2003 5:01 PM
Reply #3 Monday, February 24, 2003 5:01 PM
I think most users would appreciate having the choices and many skin authors would be interested in putting their skills into helping a classic skin make a come back rather than see it go into oblivion. Plus, many skin authors don't have the time to create a skin from scratch.
I highly doubt you'll see dozens of patches for a skin.
I highly doubt you'll see dozens of patches for a skin.
werewolf
Reply #4 Monday, February 24, 2003 5:06 PM
Reply #4 Monday, February 24, 2003 5:06 PM
If that's true, then I would welcome it. I would like the author (if available) to have final say in the patches being submitted. How would that work? Just personal E-mail, as it is done now for port permissions?
IPlural
Reply #5 Monday, February 24, 2003 5:16 PM
Reply #5 Monday, February 24, 2003 5:16 PM
I agree with Frogboy on the number of patches and them ending up flooding the site. But if that did happen to take place, there could be moderation over which were posted for download, or even have them setup on a monthly roll over or something else.
It would help out those putting the time into skinning because it is so time consuming and intensive, it would allow them to continue with other projects without their mind tugging them in the other direction to update constantly.
Also, if moderation where to come into play, maybe it could be the authors place to consider what they think best fits as an addition, so they do not end up seeming to loose control of their project? just an after thought...
I like the idea for another reason also.
For someone starting out, breaking things into such a system would allow them to work on one area and perfect their abilities in it while also learning tips, trick and tweaks that could and probably would better serve them than attempting to jump right in the deep end, only to get frustrated. Possibly giving up, in or how ever you happen to look at it.
I am not saying skinning is to hard for anyone to learn, just that personal levels of patience vary, so maybe it would work as a means to slowly climb the learning curve and make it less steep in the end?
anyway... jmpov
I like it
It would help out those putting the time into skinning because it is so time consuming and intensive, it would allow them to continue with other projects without their mind tugging them in the other direction to update constantly.
Also, if moderation where to come into play, maybe it could be the authors place to consider what they think best fits as an addition, so they do not end up seeming to loose control of their project? just an after thought...
I like the idea for another reason also.
For someone starting out, breaking things into such a system would allow them to work on one area and perfect their abilities in it while also learning tips, trick and tweaks that could and probably would better serve them than attempting to jump right in the deep end, only to get frustrated. Possibly giving up, in or how ever you happen to look at it.
I am not saying skinning is to hard for anyone to learn, just that personal levels of patience vary, so maybe it would work as a means to slowly climb the learning curve and make it less steep in the end?
anyway... jmpov
I like it
White_Moth
Reply #7 Monday, February 24, 2003 5:18 PM
Reply #7 Monday, February 24, 2003 5:18 PM
As a user, I would rather the artists I respect create the update, or not. To have someone else presume to know what the original artist had in mind would be a form of forgery, and I know I would feel somewhat cheated even if the patch were perfect.
IPlural
Reply #8 Monday, February 24, 2003 5:20 PM
Reply #8 Monday, February 24, 2003 5:20 PM
simple, make it a system based upon request and permission before a post is allowed to hit the library if that becomes an issue...
White_Moth
Reply #9 Monday, February 24, 2003 5:25 PM
Reply #9 Monday, February 24, 2003 5:25 PM
But that is the thing you see, already the burden to satisfy the user is put upon the artist which you say has not the time in the first place. 
Jafo
Reply #10 Monday, February 24, 2003 5:29 PM
Reply #10 Monday, February 24, 2003 5:29 PM
I am all 'FOR' the introduction of this patching process, however it should by necessity be an 'opt-in' process, not an 'opt-out' one.
When an artist submitted his/her work for public use, this specific 'option' did not exist and therefore no consent was or could be forthcoming.
Clearly it 'may' be unfortunate that a 'long gone' artist's work might therefore NOT be updated if he cannot be contacted for consent/etc, but such is life, and his property rights must still be respected in absentia.
Even with 'opt in' as the process, I'm sure it will be a success, however if a lng-gone artist were to suddenly return and discover his work[s] had been added to or extended or modified [call it what you will], without his consent then people can rightly expect his wrath and subsequent [permanent] departure.
Opt in - Good.
Opt out - Bad....
When an artist submitted his/her work for public use, this specific 'option' did not exist and therefore no consent was or could be forthcoming.
Clearly it 'may' be unfortunate that a 'long gone' artist's work might therefore NOT be updated if he cannot be contacted for consent/etc, but such is life, and his property rights must still be respected in absentia.
Even with 'opt in' as the process, I'm sure it will be a success, however if a lng-gone artist were to suddenly return and discover his work[s] had been added to or extended or modified [call it what you will], without his consent then people can rightly expect his wrath and subsequent [permanent] departure.
Opt in - Good.
Opt out - Bad....
IPlural
Reply #11 Monday, February 24, 2003 5:40 PM Jafo
pretty much what I have been finding out about the skinning community, at least here at WinC, I do not spend anytime at other site, is that the whole thing, with due respect applied is totally inclusive instead of exclusive.
Reply #11 Monday, February 24, 2003 5:40 PM
Jafo
pretty much what I have been finding out about the skinning community, at least here at WinC, I do not spend anytime at other site, is that the whole thing, with due respect applied is totally inclusive instead of exclusive.
White_Moth
Reply #12 Monday, February 24, 2003 5:44 PM
Reply #12 Monday, February 24, 2003 5:44 PM
I speak from the view that as art, it cannot be changed by someone else no matter how well done.
An artist work can only be changed by the artist themselves, otherwise if done by someone else no matter how good, the art has lost it's "value" as such. I know of no artist that would accept this.
I looked at all the Builderblinds we have here at WC and I marvel at the ideas they represent. Sure, they look silly now, but they record a certain posterity that should never be changed.
But should someone try to "improve" upon them, they become nothing more than "fill" and lose that specialness.
But I can see from Frogboy's point of view seeing how this technology exists already, it may provide an additional source of revenue, but, I ask, at what cost?
An artist work can only be changed by the artist themselves, otherwise if done by someone else no matter how good, the art has lost it's "value" as such. I know of no artist that would accept this.
I looked at all the Builderblinds we have here at WC and I marvel at the ideas they represent. Sure, they look silly now, but they record a certain posterity that should never be changed.
But should someone try to "improve" upon them, they become nothing more than "fill" and lose that specialness.
But I can see from Frogboy's point of view seeing how this technology exists already, it may provide an additional source of revenue, but, I ask, at what cost?
paxx
Reply #13 Monday, February 24, 2003 5:49 PM
Reply #13 Monday, February 24, 2003 5:49 PM
I agree, it should be opt-in, not opt-out.
If the origianl skinner disapeared, then let his work die.
When Mozart created his symphonies, there were no electric guitar. Because Mozart is dead, does that give me the right to update his symphonies with a couple of electric guitar solos? Me think not. Of course, if he was still around, I could ask him, but he's not, so doing so would only appear sacrilegious.
If the origianl skinner disapeared, then let his work die.
When Mozart created his symphonies, there were no electric guitar. Because Mozart is dead, does that give me the right to update his symphonies with a couple of electric guitar solos? Me think not. Of course, if he was still around, I could ask him, but he's not, so doing so would only appear sacrilegious.
ToeJo
Reply #14 Monday, February 24, 2003 6:15 PM
Reply #14 Monday, February 24, 2003 6:15 PM
All I want to know is if Alexandrie would please update the "Frogboy" skin for WinXP? PLEASE!!!
davad70
Reply #16 Monday, February 24, 2003 6:19 PM
Reply #16 Monday, February 24, 2003 6:19 PM
It can't be out much better than jafo and paxx already did.
The whole thought process that if you're not using the original graphics it would be ok is severely flawed. How would you actually be able to tell if someone did or did not use the original artists graphics. If we went down this road would it then be ok for me to make matching skins or subskins to other authors skins, without permission so long as I did it from scratch? Hardly
It's a great idea in theory, but only as an opt-in by the original author.
The whole thought process that if you're not using the original graphics it would be ok is severely flawed. How would you actually be able to tell if someone did or did not use the original artists graphics. If we went down this road would it then be ok for me to make matching skins or subskins to other authors skins, without permission so long as I did it from scratch? Hardly
It's a great idea in theory, but only as an opt-in by the original author.
White_Moth
Reply #17 Monday, February 24, 2003 6:19 PM
Reply #17 Monday, February 24, 2003 6:19 PM
Well, I am done.
No offense to anybody was intended.
I just had to speak my piece on this important issue, and I respect everyone else's valuable opinion as if it were my own.
No offense to anybody was intended.
I just had to speak my piece on this important issue, and I respect everyone else's valuable opinion as if it were my own.
davad70
Reply #18 Monday, February 24, 2003 6:20 PM
Reply #18 Monday, February 24, 2003 6:20 PM
It can't be out much better than jafo and paxx already did.
That should be "put", not out.
That should be "put", not out.
Ande
Reply #19 Monday, February 24, 2003 6:20 PM
Reply #19 Monday, February 24, 2003 6:20 PM
This gets interesting. At the moment I can apply "Shellstyles" from WB4 WinBlind skins to WinBlinds skins that do not support Shellstyles. Its a patch. Who knows what I have done. If you download a patch for your personal use I do not see a difference. 
IPlural
Reply #20 Monday, February 24, 2003 6:39 PM
Reply #20 Monday, February 24, 2003 6:39 PM
I see the positives for the most part, yes the possible negatives reside in it also, but are kept to the side in the shadows in hopes that the good would prove out.
The question I would think is the process, in attempting to ensure it does in fact prove out in the end. thinking of this reminds me of the system in place to deal with ripping, it is flawed I guess in some ways, but it is functional and seems to work very well such as it is. Maybe some deeper tweaking might be needed, or even easier to apply since this would be something new it was being applied to and those short comings could be looked over and the improvments applied before hand...
m, anyway, maybe some of those who have been in the skinning community the longest could put together some ideas to add to this thred and others could use them as clifnotes and then see some of the things that haven't crossed their minds becasue they haven't been around long enough to view them yet? (such as myself)
I know it isn't rocket scine and I also know everyone is not from the same culture, nationality or what have you, but, it is a global community all the same, and there is a certain accepted practice of social grace and such which is deeply rooted in it all the same.
Being left with only gut feelings to pull from in forming an opinion is rather limiting for some of us without knowing the culture of the skinning society (community)...
just a thought, might help some of us apply a more informaed opinion based upon realistic information and not supisition, or perception...
ok, I'll shuddup , "I'm going to ramble on, yeah-eah sing my song, gonna find my way"
nough from the nutz aka IP
The question I would think is the process, in attempting to ensure it does in fact prove out in the end. thinking of this reminds me of the system in place to deal with ripping, it is flawed I guess in some ways, but it is functional and seems to work very well such as it is. Maybe some deeper tweaking might be needed, or even easier to apply since this would be something new it was being applied to and those short comings could be looked over and the improvments applied before hand...
m, anyway, maybe some of those who have been in the skinning community the longest could put together some ideas to add to this thred and others could use them as clifnotes
and then see some of the things that haven't crossed their minds becasue they haven't been around long enough to view them yet? (such as myself)I know it isn't rocket scine and I also know everyone is not from the same culture, nationality or what have you, but, it is a global community all the same, and there is a certain accepted practice of social grace and such which is deeply rooted in it all the same.
Being left with only gut feelings to pull from in forming an opinion is rather limiting for some of us
without knowing the culture of the skinning society (community)...just a thought, might help some of us apply a more informaed opinion based upon realistic information and not supisition, or perception...
ok, I'll shuddup , "I'm going to ramble on, yeah-eah sing my song, gonna find my way"
nough from the nutz aka IP
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Reply #1 Monday, February 24, 2003 4:55 PM
Innovation comes from pushing the envelope, not so much recreating the wheel, since it is already round.
I believe the original artist should decide whether to update or let it die, after all, it is his creation.