The Skin Patch Debate

Monday, February 24, 2003 by Frogboy | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk

There is a new technology being developed but its eventual available form will be heavily dependent on the input of thousands of users such as you.

Each year, thousands of skins are created and released. Skins take many many hours to create. But often times, once released, they are never updated. As the software for these skins gains in function, these skins come to look outdated and are no longer used. The proposed answer: Skin patching.

Please read this next part carefully: What Skin patching does is allow third parties to submit updates to an existing skin. But these updates do not contain any parts from the original skins. Instead, they only contain the pieces that have been updated. Or in other words, patches are completely seperate files in themselves. The actual "patching" takes place in software. It would download the original skin and then the updates would be provided as additional sub-styles. If the user applies one of those sub-styles, the program the original skin and then includes the updates when it applies.

For example, let's say someone created a really nice WindowBlinds skin in 2001. But this skin doesn't support Windows XP Start bars, doesn't support the task panel (shellstyle), doesn't support the slider control nor does it support the logon/logoff dialog skinning.

Five different users could submit "patches" to this skin.

Patch 1 would just have the task panel (shellstyle).

Patch 2 would just be the logon/logoff dialog skinning

Patch 3 would have the have the XP Start bar

Patch 4 would have the slider control

Patch 5 would be another rendition of the task panel and it would have the XP Start bar and the logon/logoff skinning.

On a site like WinCustomize (or any other site that supported this technology), when the user chose to download the skin, it would bring up a dialog asking which patches (if any) a user would like to also download.
Once downloaded, when the user went to apply the skin it would bring up a dialog asking which patches they would like to apply. The updates would be displayed to user by widget (so patch 5 contains 3 widgets whereas the others are 1 widget each) to choose which pieces to use.

In this way, older skins could be updated by fans and the original effort to create the skin would be rewarded by keeping the skin fresh and new over the long term.

So where is the debate? How much say should the skin author have? WinCustomize is known for being very protective of skin author rights. But there is the conflict in wanting skin authors work to be kept useful and worthwhile over the long run. Obviously any skin patch that used the original author's graphics would need express written consent. But what about skin patches that don't use any of the graphics from the original skin? I.e. a Shellstyle wouldn't need graphics from the original skin and neither would an XP Start bar. Additionally, what policies should be by default?

Stardock's view is to make it so that the original skin author has the right to deny any skin patches be made for their skin (or at least displayed as part of the skin). Additionally, it believes that original author should have the right to reject individual skin patches from being displayed. But there is also the matter on what the default is. By default, should skin patches be allowed on skins where the author is long gone? Stardock's view is presently that skin patches on those skins would be allowed based on the discretion of the moderator and if the original author returns they can then change the setting if they so choose. This way, the thousands of existing skins can gain a second life and it is Stardock's view that the vast majority of MIA skin authors would prefer that. Moderators would still reject any skin patch that used artwork from the original skin without express written consent however.

What's your view?
First Previous Page 2 of 9 Next Last
IPlural
Reply #21 Monday, February 24, 2003 6:41 PM
oh and mr Jafo sir, I forgot to click my spell checker

addrvark , hey, I need a new word...

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IPlural
Reply #22 Monday, February 24, 2003 6:41 PM
oops no I don't " aardvark "

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Koasati
Reply #23 Monday, February 24, 2003 8:01 PM
I've been thinking about this since you first mentioned it, and I've decided this is a great idea. I haven't used the Windows Start/Taskbar for years, and I hate skinning it. It's a waste of my time to skin something I'll never see. With this 'Patch' someone could skin it. But, I wouldn't want just any ole thing someone threw together, to be associated with my skin.
This is going to be the sticky point, what system would be used for an author to approve, or reject a patch? I know this complicates things, but I feel it is essential.
paxx
Reply #24 Monday, February 24, 2003 8:08 PM
Exactly. It's a GREAT concept. Except the original author HAS TO have the final word. Say some Aafuss kinda Joe made an update of one of Dangeruss's great skin, huh?
I'm sorry, but even if no graphics are borrowed, if a skin is going to alter the original skin, then permission is required. It could possibly make a good looking skin very ugly, or at least just very different.

The concept of asking for permission is not just about using orginal graphics, but about possibly altering the original spirit of an artwork.
Koasati
Reply #25 Monday, February 24, 2003 8:09 PM
How about a "Patch" section, where you pick and choose pieces? Would this be possible? Would it just create another problem?
DavidK
Reply #26 Monday, February 24, 2003 8:29 PM
I was thinking along similar lines as Koasati, why would the patches have to be associated with specific skins? If it's just a taskbar/start menu or a set of shell styles enhancements, and both of those can be applied independantly now, why not make it a section where you could pick one that goes well with the skin you're using?

I guess it would be better to have it match the skin but that would mean using original design elements and would require permission. Another problem would be the scrollbars and progress bar. A lot of 'old' skins don't have those skinned and those would require re-doing the skin itself and not just a patch.

Basically I also think it's a great idea. I'd like to think that the patches would be done by skinners familiar with the WB format and skilled enough to do decent work. The thought of having some really terrible patches connected with great skins is a little distressing, but I guess people can just choose to not use them.
T-Man
Reply #27 Monday, February 24, 2003 11:11 PM
I don't view it as changing an artists work. I look at is as, adding to it. Lets take for example a painting. I have a canvass painting by an artist. The artist is no where around. At the time of the painting there we no such things as Frames. I want to Frame the painting to make it complete. Would it be wrong for me to place the painting in a frame? I don't think it would be. I'm all for this new system with an opt out method.
da_zman20
Reply #28 Monday, February 24, 2003 11:49 PM
I kinda like the idea if there ever is a problem and the specific author has a problem with the updates wincustomize will remove them right?? but at long as he shows nothing against this it's ok right?? I love it... so the author always does have the final say... go for it frogboy, however this looks like it's gonna be hard to do...

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Frogboy
Reply #29 Monday, February 24, 2003 11:58 PM
I tend to look at the middle ground. I agree you don't want joe schmoe having his patched displayed in the listing of a clsasic skin.

That's why I'd favor putting that in the hands of the moderator. You'd have wallpaper style moderating when it's an update for a skin that doesn't have explicit approval for patching.

I do agree a nother path could be for this all to be done in software. Simply encourage users to submit widgets to the widget section and the author of the widget could specifcy which skin they had in mind (a usre could use it on any skin) and then WindowBlinds could connect to thta and offer recommendations on the software side.
Koasati
Reply #30 Tuesday, February 25, 2003 12:03 AM
I don't see this as framing the painting, it's more like adding to the painting. Mona Lisa needs a beret, so I'll add one. Leonardo hasn't been around for a while, so it's ok, until he opts out.
Koasati
Reply #31 Tuesday, February 25, 2003 12:06 AM
Koasati thinks Brad's fingers are tongue tied....
Iben
Reply #32 Tuesday, February 25, 2003 12:23 AM
I just wanted to say something on behalf of artists that aren't around any more.
Would Leonardo da Vinci mind if we added to the Mona Lisa?
One of the greatest masterpieces of human existence.

Just thought I would add that for a little perspective from the outside looking in.
I am up in the air about what I think on the matter.

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Frogboy
Reply #33 Tuesday, February 25, 2003 12:26 AM
I don't think any of these analogies really work right. There's really nothing to compare this too.
Jafo
Reply #34 Tuesday, February 25, 2003 12:31 AM
No...it's hard to find an analogous comparison, but it's also hard to determine a 'safe' course of action as well...
Iben
Reply #35 Tuesday, February 25, 2003 12:32 AM
This is a place where an archive of one of mankind's greatest achievements is on display.
Computer graphics.
Five billion years in the making.
Maybe we should preserve the history?

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Koasati
Reply #36 Tuesday, February 25, 2003 1:37 AM
I agree, it's a lousy analogy............but T-MAN started it..
IPlural
Reply #37 Tuesday, February 25, 2003 2:03 AM
um, from the planters can

doesn't it all really boil down to the process in the end?

it is totally new from what I've been reading, moral dilemma aside for a moment...

if the process is worked out, and be prov-en it has reached an acceptable level to provide the best security in protecting the position and rights of the original artist/author, wouldn't it be easier to quell some of the reservations?

I do not mean write code or anything, but the moderation, submission, precision part of it being on paper, hashed out to the point of consensus that it is the best starting place, but chiseled in stone so it can grow or contract as needed.

an ROI model

the investment being the positives which it could or would provide weighed against the negative that *might* out weigh the positives in the end...

um, thinking about this thread and what I have read so far I guess that is whats happening now ?

And I'm missing it in the mix..

ok, I'll lurk and not give into the impulse to remove all doubt but instead watch, read and learn

grasshopper let cricket butt chirp out of order making silly noise...


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IPlural
Reply #38 Tuesday, February 25, 2003 2:05 AM
"not chiseled in stone", it should be

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Jafo
Reply #39 Tuesday, February 25, 2003 3:31 AM
lPlural...Wincustomize.com offers the perfect interface between the developer[s] of Windowblinds [etc] and the Skinners themselves.
Here is THE place where the moving will be moved and shaking will be shook.

Just get involved...
Old_Crab
Reply #40 Tuesday, February 25, 2003 3:38 AM
Old Crab only uses the freshest skins. Patchs may or may not work on any individual system useing several flavors of any given particular software program. The amount of work to the admins will be increased and so will bandwidth and storage space. Old Crabs 1 1/2 cents worth. Especially since OC is just an abuser...err...user.

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