Snipers in DC
Tuesday, October 15, 2002 by ToeJo | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
I live 45 minutes outside of DC. This sniper stuff really ticks me off. I've never seen anything like this. Anyone think it's al-Qaida? I don't know, but I hope they catch the SOB soon!
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joetheblow
Reply #162 Saturday, October 26, 2002 1:07 AM
Reply #162 Saturday, October 26, 2002 1:07 AM
those "technicalities" are there for a reason. you have to do it right. that is what's being on the good side is all about. if they did it right maybe those boys wouldn't have to had to grow up in prison. Some people get let go because of "technicalities" and others don't. Some people die because of those technicalities and others do not. It feels so wrong when someone gets off (like a drug dealer" because someone beat the crap out of him during integrigation (which he desirved"). So, along with other illegal evidence, he was let go. Killed 2 people later on, for which he went to prison.
Anyway, the bottom line is that the law and rules are there for a reason. If he gets off because of a technicality, it will be because someone desided to do something very unlawfull and possibly criminal to do it. 2 wrongs do not make a right. It looks good in the movies though, Did you see how Dirty Harry got that bad guy (and distroyed half of Chicago in th process)???? Sweat!!!
I think this guy who appartenly is the killer better have a real good alliby.
Hey and in LA Law didn't they have shows with people who got convicted who didn't do anything wrong??? But the officer and prosicution went all around the rules to convict him???? Or was that The Practice??
I would really love to be on the jury of this court trile. Here the evidence presented. Make sure he is not being railroaded by "the Man" and pass the verdict. From what I here and read so far, he is the one but everyone deserves the right to innocent to proven giulty (even scum). That insures all of our rights so that innocent people do not get hurt. So to make sure those innocent people do not get caught up in an over zealuos prosicuter or investigator.
This is why people get off on technicalities.
Anyway, the bottom line is that the law and rules are there for a reason. If he gets off because of a technicality, it will be because someone desided to do something very unlawfull and possibly criminal to do it. 2 wrongs do not make a right. It looks good in the movies though, Did you see how Dirty Harry got that bad guy (and distroyed half of Chicago in th process)???? Sweat!!!
I think this guy who appartenly is the killer better have a real good alliby.
Hey and in LA Law didn't they have shows with people who got convicted who didn't do anything wrong??? But the officer and prosicution went all around the rules to convict him???? Or was that The Practice??
I would really love to be on the jury of this court trile. Here the evidence presented. Make sure he is not being railroaded by "the Man" and pass the verdict. From what I here and read so far, he is the one but everyone deserves the right to innocent to proven giulty (even scum). That insures all of our rights so that innocent people do not get hurt. So to make sure those innocent people do not get caught up in an over zealuos prosicuter or investigator.
This is why people get off on technicalities.
joetheblow
Reply #163 Saturday, October 26, 2002 1:13 AM
Reply #163 Saturday, October 26, 2002 1:13 AM
Here is a story from the New York Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/10/26/national/nationalspecial/26GUN.html
John Allen Muhammad, the man arrested in the suburban Washington sniper case, owned at least two Bushmaster XM15 rifles in the last two years: the one linked to the shootings and another one that he sold at a gun shop in Tacoma, Wash., according to court documents and an executive of Bushmaster Firearms.
It is not yet known where or how Mr. Muhammad bought the Bushmaster rifle that the authorities say was used in the killings. It was the other gun that led to his being charged with illegal gun possession on Thursday in Federal District Court in Baltimore.
Mr. Muhammad resold that gun at Welcher's Gun Shop in Tacoma on May 23, 2000, according both to the warrant for his arrest and to John Welcher, the store owner. Under federal law, Mr. Muhammad was barred from buying or possessing a firearm because his second wife had taken out a domestic-violence restraining order against him two months earlier, in March 2000.
It took two years before the restraining order was entered in the F.B.I.'s main database, the National Crime Information Center, in May 2002, a bureau official said.
But that was still before he obtained the rifle used in the sniper attacks in June, the official said, noting that the Bushfield Company's records showed that the gun was not shipped until June.
Mr. Muhammad could have acquired that rifle any number of ways, the official said — perhaps through a corrupt gun dealer who provided false information to the F.B.I. when a background check was performed, from a private seller or at a gun show, where no background check is required.
Mr. Muhammad's ability to buy the second Bushmaster rifle after the restraining order had been entered into the F.B.I.'s computer system underscores weaknesses in the nation's gun laws, advocates of gun control say.
"The system failed here," said Matthew Bennett, a spokesman for Americans for Gun Safety in Washington.
"Either he slipped through the cracks of the background check system, because his restraining order wasn't in the system, or he evaded a background check by buying his gun at a gun show or from a private seller," Mr. Bennett said.
.........
The arrest warrant suggests that Mr. Muhammad may have also had a third rifle that looked like the others. A friend of Mr. Muhammad in Tacoma, Robert Edward Holmes, told the firearms bureau on Tuesday that when Mr. Muhammad and "an associate" visited his home six months ago, they displayed an AR-15 assault rifle. The AR-15 is the civilian version of the military's M-16, and the Bushmaster rifles are copies of it.
That date would have been before Mr. Muhammad could have bought the Bushmaster rifle used in the sniper killings.
As for why it took so long to enter the restraining order into the F.B.I. computer, law enforcement officials said it was not unusual for the process to take months or longer.
A Justice Department study last January estimated that there were two million restraining orders around the nation, but that only 590,000 had been entered in the system.
A bill that would give the states $375 million a year for the next three years to catch up on the backlog passed the House of Representatives but has been stalled in the Senate by opposition from Republicans.
In recent years bills to close the so-called gun show loophole, in which a background check is not required when a gun is bought at a gun show, have faced strong opposition from the National Rifle Association. None have passed.
Questions??? Comments????
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/10/26/national/nationalspecial/26GUN.html
John Allen Muhammad, the man arrested in the suburban Washington sniper case, owned at least two Bushmaster XM15 rifles in the last two years: the one linked to the shootings and another one that he sold at a gun shop in Tacoma, Wash., according to court documents and an executive of Bushmaster Firearms.
It is not yet known where or how Mr. Muhammad bought the Bushmaster rifle that the authorities say was used in the killings. It was the other gun that led to his being charged with illegal gun possession on Thursday in Federal District Court in Baltimore.
Mr. Muhammad resold that gun at Welcher's Gun Shop in Tacoma on May 23, 2000, according both to the warrant for his arrest and to John Welcher, the store owner. Under federal law, Mr. Muhammad was barred from buying or possessing a firearm because his second wife had taken out a domestic-violence restraining order against him two months earlier, in March 2000.
It took two years before the restraining order was entered in the F.B.I.'s main database, the National Crime Information Center, in May 2002, a bureau official said.
But that was still before he obtained the rifle used in the sniper attacks in June, the official said, noting that the Bushfield Company's records showed that the gun was not shipped until June.
Mr. Muhammad could have acquired that rifle any number of ways, the official said — perhaps through a corrupt gun dealer who provided false information to the F.B.I. when a background check was performed, from a private seller or at a gun show, where no background check is required.
Mr. Muhammad's ability to buy the second Bushmaster rifle after the restraining order had been entered into the F.B.I.'s computer system underscores weaknesses in the nation's gun laws, advocates of gun control say.
"The system failed here," said Matthew Bennett, a spokesman for Americans for Gun Safety in Washington.
"Either he slipped through the cracks of the background check system, because his restraining order wasn't in the system, or he evaded a background check by buying his gun at a gun show or from a private seller," Mr. Bennett said.
.........
The arrest warrant suggests that Mr. Muhammad may have also had a third rifle that looked like the others. A friend of Mr. Muhammad in Tacoma, Robert Edward Holmes, told the firearms bureau on Tuesday that when Mr. Muhammad and "an associate" visited his home six months ago, they displayed an AR-15 assault rifle. The AR-15 is the civilian version of the military's M-16, and the Bushmaster rifles are copies of it.
That date would have been before Mr. Muhammad could have bought the Bushmaster rifle used in the sniper killings.
As for why it took so long to enter the restraining order into the F.B.I. computer, law enforcement officials said it was not unusual for the process to take months or longer.
A Justice Department study last January estimated that there were two million restraining orders around the nation, but that only 590,000 had been entered in the system.
A bill that would give the states $375 million a year for the next three years to catch up on the backlog passed the House of Representatives but has been stalled in the Senate by opposition from Republicans.
In recent years bills to close the so-called gun show loophole, in which a background check is not required when a gun is bought at a gun show, have faced strong opposition from the National Rifle Association. None have passed.
Questions??? Comments????
wombat_1
Reply #164 Saturday, October 26, 2002 3:26 AM
Reply #164 Saturday, October 26, 2002 3:26 AM
With a name like 'Muhammad' (no disrespect for anyone named Muhammad BTW) he's behind the 8 ball for a start.
No point in restarting the 'Gun Debate' all over except to suggest that owning a fire-arm should be regarded as a privelige rather than a 'God-given' right, and as such, earned.
$375 M for the next three years to 'catch up' deserves scrutiny.
No point in restarting the 'Gun Debate' all over except to suggest that owning a fire-arm should be regarded as a privelige rather than a 'God-given' right, and as such, earned.
$375 M for the next three years to 'catch up' deserves scrutiny.
Jafo
Reply #165 Saturday, October 26, 2002 4:36 AM
Reply #165 Saturday, October 26, 2002 4:36 AM
Joe....time to 'get it right'...
interrogation
deserved
decided
unlawful
destroyed
the
Sweet
apparently
alibi
prosecution
trial
Hear
hear
until
guilty
ensures
zealous
prosecuter...
interrogation
deserved
decided
unlawful
destroyed
the
Sweet
apparently
alibi
prosecution
trial
Hear
hear
until
guilty
ensures
zealous
prosecuter...
Jafo
Reply #166 Saturday, October 26, 2002 4:40 AM
Reply #166 Saturday, October 26, 2002 4:40 AM
Grrr...'prosecutor'...so many errors got the better of me...
paxx
Reply #168 Saturday, October 26, 2002 4:10 PM
Reply #168 Saturday, October 26, 2002 4:10 PM
wombat, Muhammad isn't his birth name. His real name is John Allen Williams, an American, but he changed his name last year when he got converted to Islam. Somewhat like Muhammad Ali.
BTW, they arrested a third person, Nathaniel Osbourne, also suspected of being involved.
On the topic of punishment...
I think they should be skinned alive, then their nails pulled one by one, they eyes pulled out and hot oil poured down their throat.
(BTW, I hope you got he irony in there. Because they were cruel and inhuman, it doesn't mean we must be as well. If we were, it would mean they were in their right in the first place.)
BTW, they arrested a third person, Nathaniel Osbourne, also suspected of being involved.
On the topic of punishment...
I think they should be skinned alive, then their nails pulled one by one, they eyes pulled out and hot oil poured down their throat.
(BTW, I hope you got he irony in there. Because they were cruel and inhuman, it doesn't mean we must be as well. If we were, it would mean they were in their right in the first place.)
bakerstreet
Reply #169 Saturday, October 26, 2002 8:30 PM
Reply #169 Saturday, October 26, 2002 8:30 PM
goodmorphing: i'm good, thanks. I defeated the urge to go back to Norrath 
. Morrowind is the methadone for my Everquest addiction, lol.
My only problem with the whole sniper thing is how the damned news channel pundits refuse to shut up about it now. The made fun of each other for two days for speculating, and now they are speculating again. I was trying to find out information about the horrible situation in Russia last night and all I could get on all three news networks were pundits debating jurisdiction, and the sniper's 'traumatic legacy', whatever that is...
No matter what happens, they are gonna get what they deserve. It's a non-issue, it will be carried out by *someone*, even if it is in the prison shower with a broomhandle... A bruised populace enforces their own interpretation of Karma.
All I am concerned with is the motive. It would suck if he had a supporting group of like-minded individuals.
. Morrowind is the methadone for my Everquest addiction, lol.My only problem with the whole sniper thing is how the damned news channel pundits refuse to shut up about it now. The made fun of each other for two days for speculating, and now they are speculating again. I was trying to find out information about the horrible situation in Russia last night and all I could get on all three news networks were pundits debating jurisdiction, and the sniper's 'traumatic legacy', whatever that is...
No matter what happens, they are gonna get what they deserve. It's a non-issue, it will be carried out by *someone*, even if it is in the prison shower with a broomhandle... A bruised populace enforces their own interpretation of Karma.
All I am concerned with is the motive. It would suck if he had a supporting group of like-minded individuals.
wombat_1
Reply #170 Sunday, October 27, 2002 3:24 AM
Reply #170 Sunday, October 27, 2002 3:24 AM
paxx, I noted that and if anything it makes for even more of a bias against the person, a 'convert' to any cause (if indeed this is the case) is perceived as being a fanatic.
And of course, if the well used 'diminished responibilty' plea is entered then who knows where the case goes?
There must be some middle ground between knowing the results of ones actions and being a nut case .... guess we wait and see.
And of course, if the well used 'diminished responibilty' plea is entered then who knows where the case goes?
There must be some middle ground between knowing the results of ones actions and being a nut case .... guess we wait and see.
SkinneRyan
Reply #171 Monday, October 28, 2002 7:30 AM
Reply #171 Monday, October 28, 2002 7:30 AM
joetheblow - "Zac Hanson? Who is that?"
you're better off not knowing
you're better off not knowing
Bangkokboy
Reply #172 Monday, October 28, 2002 12:06 PM
Reply #172 Monday, October 28, 2002 12:06 PM
There seems to be a strong movement now in psychiatry that a person can have a certifiable mental illness, and still know the difference between right and wrong. ( Did he plan? hide and use subterfuge? Formulate a careful escape plan? etc., etc.).
Fuzzy Logic
Reply #173 Monday, October 28, 2002 12:50 PM
Reply #173 Monday, October 28, 2002 12:50 PM
You could argue any form of violent act is due to mental illness. Using violence of any kind cannot be considered normal behaviour.
Kinrik
Reply #174 Monday, October 28, 2002 1:13 PM
Reply #174 Monday, October 28, 2002 1:13 PM
heh...the human race has been mentaly ill for the past 10 million years, or so, apparently...
wombat_1
Reply #175 Monday, October 28, 2002 1:37 PM
Reply #175 Monday, October 28, 2002 1:37 PM
Fuzzy, it's all a matter of perception.
Violence can be a perfectly 'normal' reflex act of self-preservation through to the 'abnormal' psycotic who enjoys inflicting pain or the sociopath (correct me Jafo) who just gets off on chaos, terror and pain.....
Violence can be a perfectly 'normal' reflex act of self-preservation through to the 'abnormal' psycotic who enjoys inflicting pain or the sociopath (correct me Jafo) who just gets off on chaos, terror and pain.....
Bangkokboy
Reply #176 Monday, October 28, 2002 1:58 PM
Reply #176 Monday, October 28, 2002 1:58 PM
Normal is a misnomer. The good people who define "normal" behavior are a minority in the world at large and are therefore no longer the norm.
paxx
Reply #177 Monday, October 28, 2002 2:14 PM
Reply #177 Monday, October 28, 2002 2:14 PM
It may be normal to have violent thoughts, it may even be human nature. But what is not normal is to decide to enact those violent thoughts. Of course, the very concept of the "norm" ("normal") is defined by society not by nature.
Kinrik: the human species is not that old. At the most, 70,000 years.
Kinrik: the human species is not that old. At the most, 70,000 years.
Kinrik
Reply #178 Monday, October 28, 2002 2:19 PM
Reply #178 Monday, October 28, 2002 2:19 PM
i was kidding on the age thing...and it depends on who you ask, and then choose to believe, anyways...
Fuzzy Logic
Reply #179 Monday, October 28, 2002 2:22 PM
Reply #179 Monday, October 28, 2002 2:22 PM
It's a sad fact that the human race is still primitive. Despite all the science, technology, art and knowledge posessed by humans, the majority are no less disposed to violence than our 'uncivilised' ancestors.
Kinrik
Reply #180 Monday, October 28, 2002 2:36 PM
Reply #180 Monday, October 28, 2002 2:36 PM
ah, but who defines civilized?
when the aliens come to kill us all off with their advanced technological wonders and keep sweeping through the multiverse, will we have considered them a greater civilization than our, or lesser just because they kicked our butt first?
again, i'm kidding...
"Civilized"...what a crock. So is any being who performs any act which may be construed as "violent" (in your definition - "your" meaning anyone not "me") uncivilized? So Bob might think it was TERRIBLE to spank that kid, but Frank thinks the kid had it coming...
Again, depends on who you ask, and then who you choose to agree with, or believe.
Same thing when you ask which religion is the real one, since each says all other Gods are false and the blasphemers will rot in hell... (joking around again...calm down)
it's a sad fact that we get hung up spending time debating how intelligent, or worldly, or primitive we are, rather than getting something out of life, being productive, enjoying our families, expanding our minds.
we sure havea lot of time to type away on a keyboard and complain...
jump on 1800flowers.com and send yer girl some flowers.
check out the tide schedule for the beach to take your kid to after work.
preorder some movie tickets to take the family out or something.
go skin something
(no, Kinrik...put the cat down...that's UNcivilized )
when the aliens come to kill us all off with their advanced technological wonders and keep sweeping through the multiverse, will we have considered them a greater civilization than our, or lesser just because they kicked our butt first?
again, i'm kidding...
"Civilized"...what a crock. So is any being who performs any act which may be construed as "violent" (in your definition - "your" meaning anyone not "me") uncivilized? So Bob might think it was TERRIBLE to spank that kid, but Frank thinks the kid had it coming...
Again, depends on who you ask, and then who you choose to agree with, or believe.
Same thing when you ask which religion is the real one, since each says all other Gods are false and the blasphemers will rot in hell... (joking around again...calm down)
it's a sad fact that we get hung up spending time debating how intelligent, or worldly, or primitive we are, rather than getting something out of life, being productive, enjoying our families, expanding our minds.
we sure havea lot of time to type away on a keyboard and complain...
jump on 1800flowers.com and send yer girl some flowers.
check out the tide schedule for the beach to take your kid to after work.
preorder some movie tickets to take the family out or something.
go skin something
(no, Kinrik...put the cat down...that's UNcivilized
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Reply #161 Friday, October 25, 2002 11:24 PM