Snipers in DC
Tuesday, October 15, 2002 by ToeJo | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
I live 45 minutes outside of DC. This sniper stuff really ticks me off. I've never seen anything like this. Anyone think it's al-Qaida? I don't know, but I hope they catch the SOB soon!
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KarmaGirl
Reply #42 Wednesday, October 16, 2002 2:38 PM
Reply #42 Wednesday, October 16, 2002 2:38 PM
It's quite possible that the people who were identifying the gun have no idea what different guns look like. I also wonder how much of the "facts" are reported. Hopefully, the police know more than what we are hearing about.
bakerstreet
Reply #43 Wednesday, October 16, 2002 3:46 PM
Reply #43 Wednesday, October 16, 2002 3:46 PM
It would be very irresponsible for the police to elude details that would be 'leading' to the public. Heck, the average american with only a short glimpse probably couldnt' even guess the right continent, much less the right ethnic group. 'Dark skinned' is just causing people to assume. The AK-47 statement is leading, imho, and needless if it is the wrong caliber. If this goes on it might be very uncomfortable, again, for Arabic citizens in D.C.
If I were the police I would try my best to tone that angle down for now. I with the press would stop talking to witnesses as well. The day after the police chief said that he though kids were safe at school the 13 year old boy was shot. Whoever this is, he is adjusting his crimes to what he hears. How expensive is dark makeup and a dark wig, or light makeup and a blonde wig? If anything they should be humanizing the victims as much as possible, instead of making the nut famous.
If I were the police I would try my best to tone that angle down for now. I with the press would stop talking to witnesses as well. The day after the police chief said that he though kids were safe at school the 13 year old boy was shot. Whoever this is, he is adjusting his crimes to what he hears. How expensive is dark makeup and a dark wig, or light makeup and a blonde wig? If anything they should be humanizing the victims as much as possible, instead of making the nut famous.
wombat_1
Reply #45 Wednesday, October 16, 2002 3:58 PM
Reply #45 Wednesday, October 16, 2002 3:58 PM
The original Kalshnikov was chambered for the German derived Soviet 7.63 Short round.
Around the early to mid 70s variations of the AK47 appeared in 5.5 give or take a few mm.
Depending on the origin, as in Czechoslovakia, China, Hungary or Bulgaria, as well as the various 'Russian' State arms factories, these could have turned down foregrips, bayonet lugs, no bayonet lugs, semi or full automatic fire, standard length or cut down barrels ..... tailored to suit the end user.
I think the small calibre was just a 'fashion' thing, certainly the 7.63 Kurz was a better round and the Soviet State produced arms a decent quality, not as good as the Czech (Skoda I think?) rifles but far above the ChiCom units.
I've yet to see an AR16 or version of same that was any good in the hands of the average grunt, nasty plastic things they were..... a 'mechanical musket' if ever there was one.
Not the weapon of choice for single round kills at any range.
It really is irrelevant, the damn thing is being used on civilians, to all intents and purposes by a psycopathic pro!
As for the 50 yards story .... the report and muzzle flash would be a dead give away.
Be nice if the perp attempts to resist when the Federales catch up with him, Exedrine (???) Headache 9mm!
Around the early to mid 70s variations of the AK47 appeared in 5.5 give or take a few mm.
Depending on the origin, as in Czechoslovakia, China, Hungary or Bulgaria, as well as the various 'Russian' State arms factories, these could have turned down foregrips, bayonet lugs, no bayonet lugs, semi or full automatic fire, standard length or cut down barrels ..... tailored to suit the end user.
I think the small calibre was just a 'fashion' thing, certainly the 7.63 Kurz was a better round and the Soviet State produced arms a decent quality, not as good as the Czech (Skoda I think?) rifles but far above the ChiCom units.
I've yet to see an AR16 or version of same that was any good in the hands of the average grunt, nasty plastic things they were..... a 'mechanical musket' if ever there was one.
Not the weapon of choice for single round kills at any range.
It really is irrelevant, the damn thing is being used on civilians, to all intents and purposes by a psycopathic pro!
As for the 50 yards story .... the report and muzzle flash would be a dead give away.
Be nice if the perp attempts to resist when the Federales catch up with him, Exedrine (???) Headache 9mm!
bakerstreet
Reply #46 Wednesday, October 16, 2002 4:43 PM
Reply #46 Wednesday, October 16, 2002 4:43 PM
My AR-15 was very accurate, and as long as I used the forward assist it never jammed. I'm not sure if the Colt varied in quality from the Armalite or the other clones. It seems like a idiotic choice for this purpose, though.
I still find it hard to believe that he is not using something closed-breach and suppressable; I had just assumed that it was the supersonic 'crack' that people were hearing. Amazing how little people hear in an urban area. Then again, a single shot just makes you duck anyway, and he seems a bit too sneaky to make a second for people to home-in on.
As long as no one is hurt, it would be better for all concerned if he 'resists arrest'. I don't think I could handle a courtTv monstrosity, or another vacation trip to camp X-Ray.
I still find it hard to believe that he is not using something closed-breach and suppressable; I had just assumed that it was the supersonic 'crack' that people were hearing. Amazing how little people hear in an urban area. Then again, a single shot just makes you duck anyway, and he seems a bit too sneaky to make a second for people to home-in on.
As long as no one is hurt, it would be better for all concerned if he 'resists arrest'. I don't think I could handle a courtTv monstrosity, or another vacation trip to camp X-Ray.
bakerstreet
Reply #47 Wednesday, October 16, 2002 4:53 PM
Reply #47 Wednesday, October 16, 2002 4:53 PM
jammed = misfired. apologies. Thinking and typing... walking and chewing gum... i suck...
Jafo
Reply #48 Wednesday, October 16, 2002 5:20 PM
Reply #48 Wednesday, October 16, 2002 5:20 PM
Guns are a weapon of convenience, you don't even have to get bloody and up-close.
Weapons of remote or mass killing are the issue, not knives or baseball bats, NRA fanatics will always come up with those as arguments. Such tripe....let's ban paper, just in case someone decides to slash people to pieces with paper-cuts....
Simply imagine a world with NO guns and you'll have a world with no shootings, then ask yourself what is the LEGITIMATE motive for owning them.
The interesting side of this indiscriminate sniper is that he could just as easily kill an NRA gun-toting thug and guess what? The toting of that gun won't save you at all.
Excluding Boing 737's, what are the 'weapons of choice' of the mass murderer?
According to the pro-NRA, that would be knives and bats.....yeah, right...
Weapons of remote or mass killing are the issue, not knives or baseball bats, NRA fanatics will always come up with those as arguments. Such tripe....let's ban paper, just in case someone decides to slash people to pieces with paper-cuts....
Simply imagine a world with NO guns and you'll have a world with no shootings, then ask yourself what is the LEGITIMATE motive for owning them.
The interesting side of this indiscriminate sniper is that he could just as easily kill an NRA gun-toting thug and guess what? The toting of that gun won't save you at all.
Excluding Boing 737's, what are the 'weapons of choice' of the mass murderer?
According to the pro-NRA, that would be knives and bats.....yeah, right...
ToeJo
Reply #49 Wednesday, October 16, 2002 7:37 PM
Reply #49 Wednesday, October 16, 2002 7:37 PM
The news I just heard said they think the gun was a AK-74. Yea, that's right, I wrote 74. According to the news cast it is a modified and updated version of the AK-47. However, I think the newscaster was on drugs. Most of them are ya know! 
bakerstreet
Reply #50 Wednesday, October 16, 2002 8:38 PM
Reply #50 Wednesday, October 16, 2002 8:38 PM
Jafo: My Father is a lifetime member of the NRA. He doesn't 'carry guns' to Home Depot, it is illegal, but even if he did it wouldn't help him if someone wanted to kill him. Nor would telling the sniper that he can't have a gun. Where there's insanity there's a way.
The most beloved figures in my life have been members of the NRA, men that taught me to hunt, to respect life, and men that I couldn't hold a candle to. When I hear them called 'thugs' it doesn't make me angry, it makes me sad. I feel sorry for those who would hatefully antagonize and villify good people who do, and wish, no harm. No NRA members I know horde ammunition or have bunkers. The liberal view of the average NRA member is no different than the sterotypical view bigots have of minorities; just as needless, and just as productive.
I know you feel strongly about it Jafo, and I don't hold it against you, but you are throwing out a lot of babies with very little, propaganda-soiled bathwater.
****My last gun-control comment****
Here are the top 15 causes of death for the year 2000:
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005110.html
Please note that 'Homicide' isn't only gun deaths, and that there are probably some gun deaths in the accident section. I couldn't find the total firearms deaths for 2000, but in 1999 it was 21,143.
It would be much more valid to say that America has a car-accident (41,804) problem, or an Alzheimer's disease (49,044 deaths)problem. That is twice the number of deaths due to a disease that many haven't heard of and most people can't spell.
The question isn't whether guns kill people, but whether the absence of guns would make any difference. I am unconvinced of that fact. You would simply divert the cost of illegally purchased weapons to the illegal activities that are the true cause of our 'gun problem'.
The most beloved figures in my life have been members of the NRA, men that taught me to hunt, to respect life, and men that I couldn't hold a candle to. When I hear them called 'thugs' it doesn't make me angry, it makes me sad. I feel sorry for those who would hatefully antagonize and villify good people who do, and wish, no harm. No NRA members I know horde ammunition or have bunkers. The liberal view of the average NRA member is no different than the sterotypical view bigots have of minorities; just as needless, and just as productive.
I know you feel strongly about it Jafo, and I don't hold it against you, but you are throwing out a lot of babies with very little, propaganda-soiled bathwater.
****My last gun-control comment****
Here are the top 15 causes of death for the year 2000:
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005110.html
Please note that 'Homicide' isn't only gun deaths, and that there are probably some gun deaths in the accident section. I couldn't find the total firearms deaths for 2000, but in 1999 it was 21,143.
It would be much more valid to say that America has a car-accident (41,804) problem, or an Alzheimer's disease (49,044 deaths)problem. That is twice the number of deaths due to a disease that many haven't heard of and most people can't spell.
The question isn't whether guns kill people, but whether the absence of guns would make any difference. I am unconvinced of that fact. You would simply divert the cost of illegally purchased weapons to the illegal activities that are the true cause of our 'gun problem'.
bakerstreet
Reply #51 Wednesday, October 16, 2002 8:44 PM
Reply #51 Wednesday, October 16, 2002 8:44 PM
ToeJo: ack... Google shows that to be a real gun *and* chambered in a 5.45mm caliber, which is essentially the same caliber as the .223 they have been referencing. I would imagine that such ammunition would be rare in the US, but then I had never heard of it, either. Food for thought.
paxx
Reply #52 Wednesday, October 16, 2002 9:10 PM
Reply #52 Wednesday, October 16, 2002 9:10 PM
The purpose of guns is not to grow flowers or to blow bubbles. The only purpose of a gun is to kill.
The Rated PG
Reply #53 Wednesday, October 16, 2002 9:30 PM
Reply #53 Wednesday, October 16, 2002 9:30 PM
Ok Jafo It's easy to see now that you are either ignorant because you don't know any better, or you are just plain stupid(knowing better and continuing in the matter which you act).
You have shown everyone on this thread that your attempt at oral deformation of my character(simple terms LYING) has made your lack of integrity(telling the truth) and professionalism obvious to all. I never stated that I am a meber of the NRA. I am not. You made that one up yourself. Your name calling people "thugs" and the like also shows you lack of maturity when speaking on a subject of seriousness. My speaking of bats, knives, and others was to show how left field and closed minded your views are and maybe this would cause you to dig deeper into the issues. Take notes from these other mature entries on this thread that are taking time to research and provide others with facts, not their "I am me and so I am always right" selfish views. Do you actually live in America or have you ever met a member of the NRA? After meeting just you, am I to judge everyone on the premise of your foolishness? NO. Its like I'm talking to a five year old. I used to be in Law Enforcement. I now protect freedom everyday because I am a member of the United States special operations command. My job requires that I carry a GUN. I am proud to say that I am good at my job because I can target 40 shots out of 40 bullets. Does that make me a thug? Does that make me a fanatic? Does that mean that I am to hold a certain point of view just because you think so?
You have shown everyone on this thread that your attempt at oral deformation of my character(simple terms LYING) has made your lack of integrity(telling the truth) and professionalism obvious to all. I never stated that I am a meber of the NRA. I am not. You made that one up yourself. Your name calling people "thugs" and the like also shows you lack of maturity when speaking on a subject of seriousness. My speaking of bats, knives, and others was to show how left field and closed minded your views are and maybe this would cause you to dig deeper into the issues. Take notes from these other mature entries on this thread that are taking time to research and provide others with facts, not their "I am me and so I am always right" selfish views. Do you actually live in America or have you ever met a member of the NRA? After meeting just you, am I to judge everyone on the premise of your foolishness? NO. Its like I'm talking to a five year old. I used to be in Law Enforcement. I now protect freedom everyday because I am a member of the United States special operations command. My job requires that I carry a GUN. I am proud to say that I am good at my job because I can target 40 shots out of 40 bullets. Does that make me a thug? Does that make me a fanatic? Does that mean that I am to hold a certain point of view just because you think so?
The Rated PG
Reply #54 Wednesday, October 16, 2002 9:32 PM
Reply #54 Wednesday, October 16, 2002 9:32 PM
bakerstreet the M-16 now has a heavy barrel version that is considerable more accurate than the regular version. Especially civilian models. Just thought you might like to know.
paxx
Reply #56 Wednesday, October 16, 2002 9:41 PM
Reply #56 Wednesday, October 16, 2002 9:41 PM
Listen, Rated. You're allowed to your opinion, Jafo's allowed to his, Bakerstreet is allowed his.
You're allowed to think that your a cool guy because you got a big gun. And we're allowed to think otherwise, k?
You're allowed to think that your a cool guy because you got a big gun. And we're allowed to think otherwise, k?
joetheblow
Reply #57 Wednesday, October 16, 2002 9:51 PM
Reply #57 Wednesday, October 16, 2002 9:51 PM
Guns also make nice paper weights.
Guns can also be collectors items.
The bottom line is this; guns are in-animate objects. They do no move, eat, think, breathe, spell... they just sit there. They can't even load themselves!! People load them, people pick them up, people shoot them. Sure guns are made for killing, but that doesn't mean that guns kill. I believe killing is a verb, an action. Guns have to be used by something or someone and that someone has to have the intent TO KILL. All people who buy guns do not have the intent to kill.
Gun control will stop a few from getting then gun to hurt others, it probably will not stop the DC shooter or other serial kilers who have the know how to do these crimes, but it will stop those who are not so devious or just "want to try something" people.
I do not want to stop someone's right to bear arms, I just do not want it to be "easy" for a person to get a gun with a sole intent to do illegal acts.
Guns can also be collectors items.
The bottom line is this; guns are in-animate objects. They do no move, eat, think, breathe, spell... they just sit there. They can't even load themselves!! People load them, people pick them up, people shoot them. Sure guns are made for killing, but that doesn't mean that guns kill. I believe killing is a verb, an action. Guns have to be used by something or someone and that someone has to have the intent TO KILL. All people who buy guns do not have the intent to kill.
Gun control will stop a few from getting then gun to hurt others, it probably will not stop the DC shooter or other serial kilers who have the know how to do these crimes, but it will stop those who are not so devious or just "want to try something" people.
I do not want to stop someone's right to bear arms, I just do not want it to be "easy" for a person to get a gun with a sole intent to do illegal acts.
joetheblow
Reply #58 Wednesday, October 16, 2002 10:02 PM
Reply #58 Wednesday, October 16, 2002 10:02 PM
Cell phones are made for making phone calls. Doesn't it take a person to make a call? Does the person have to make a call? Just because a person has a cell phone means that he has made phone calls? If he had, are those phone calls legal and to people he knows?
Alls I am saying is that guns (much like money) is not the "evil". People make those guns go off. Gun laws allow it to be easy to get a gun with out easy tracking. Better gun laws would help, but would not eliminate the problem. Why, because people are the ones who are braking the law and buying or selling the guns
The noun here is people. What ever is done it has to be more pschycological than anything else. Gun control is not about controlling the guns, it is about controlling the people who want them.
Alls I am saying is that guns (much like money) is not the "evil". People make those guns go off. Gun laws allow it to be easy to get a gun with out easy tracking. Better gun laws would help, but would not eliminate the problem. Why, because people are the ones who are braking the law and buying or selling the guns
The noun here is people. What ever is done it has to be more pschycological than anything else. Gun control is not about controlling the guns, it is about controlling the people who want them.
The Rated PG
Reply #59 Wednesday, October 16, 2002 10:09 PM
Reply #59 Wednesday, October 16, 2002 10:09 PM
My sentiments exactly I defend everyones right to freedom of expression, freedom to lobby for gun control, freedom to keep and bear arms. I am curious to know why you feel that I think I'm a cool guy now. I was mearly stating my job requirements. Why you typed relgion...who knows. I just detest liars and being lied to or about.
paxx
Reply #60 Wednesday, October 16, 2002 10:18 PM
Reply #60 Wednesday, October 16, 2002 10:18 PM
joe: I'm sorry I don't buy that. Guns are made to kill, it's their only purpose. If I buy a cell phone, it's because I intend to use it. Why would somebody buy a gun if it wasn't for the intent of killing somebody? To denfend himself? sure. But defend himself how? By killing somebody else. Still killing.
And BTW, I'm not talking about collector item 18th century guns here. Yes, those are collector items. An AK-87 or whatever is not a collector item (yes, I know, I know nothing about guns, and I'm proud of it).
Drugs also are inanimate, joe. Yet, drug is evil. Guns are evil. In my book, they are of the same category of things. Illegal in most countries and immoral.
And BTW, I'm not talking about collector item 18th century guns here. Yes, those are collector items. An AK-87 or whatever is not a collector item (yes, I know, I know nothing about guns, and I'm proud of it).
Drugs also are inanimate, joe. Yet, drug is evil. Guns are evil. In my book, they are of the same category of things. Illegal in most countries and immoral.
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Reply #41 Wednesday, October 16, 2002 2:21 PM
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/breaking_news/story/27522p-26160c.html
Witnesses they are citing are convinced the weapon was an AK-47. The trouble is that that weapon is not produced in .223 (5.56mm) caliber. There is enough differece in the metallurgy and size of the two calibers that there would be no way that the bullets could be confused forensically, not even in fragments, imho. The odd push toward the Kalashnikov comes at the same time as the identification of the shooter as 'middle-eastern'.
If anyone knwos of a Kalashnikov chambered for a 5.56mm, speak up. I hope that all the images of middle-eastern terrorists firing AK-47s haven't seeped into the public subconscious enough to cause that kind of mistake. Everytime they show bin Laden he is holding one or one is leaned up near him. This makes me wonder if the police were not sharing all the facts about the weapon earlier.
A stubby AR-15 with a bananna clip looks a lot like an AK, and a dark-haired guy with a tan looks a lot like an Arab. I hope both are cases of mistaken identity. It is odd they would release information they know to be false, though. I dunno what will happen if this is not home-grown terrorism.