Snipers in DC
Tuesday, October 15, 2002 by ToeJo | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
I live 45 minutes outside of DC. This sniper stuff really ticks me off. I've never seen anything like this. Anyone think it's al-Qaida? I don't know, but I hope they catch the SOB soon!
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Tarkus
Reply #22 Tuesday, October 15, 2002 11:47 PM
Reply #22 Tuesday, October 15, 2002 11:47 PM
That's nice. Who needs the court system to prove someone guilty, when you can just kill them right on the spot? With any luck, you'll even kill the right guy!
goodmorphing
Reply #23 Wednesday, October 16, 2002 12:02 AM
Reply #23 Wednesday, October 16, 2002 12:02 AM
Thanks, bakerstreet, for the explanation. 
I know there must be strong laws about that, but I hope there might be instances where some action can be taken regardless if it is to save a life...
I know there must be strong laws about that, but I hope there might be instances where some action can be taken regardless if it is to save a life...
bakerstreet
Reply #24 Wednesday, October 16, 2002 12:15 AM
Reply #24 Wednesday, October 16, 2002 12:15 AM
Did a bit of research. It seems to be The Posse Comitatus Act of 1878:
"Whoever, except in cases and under circumstances expressly authorized by the Constitution or Act of
Congress, willfully uses any part of the Army or the Air Force as a posse comitatus or otherwise to
execute the laws shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both."
I'm not sure how Kent State could have happened in light of that. Pehaps Viet Nam era scholars could clarify. The only exception to this seems to be in cases of nuclear material.
Jafo: I wish you were right. It would be nice to think no one would want guns if they were hard to get. Perhaps we should outlaw drugs... or even alchohol, too...
oh, wait...
"Whoever, except in cases and under circumstances expressly authorized by the Constitution or Act of
Congress, willfully uses any part of the Army or the Air Force as a posse comitatus or otherwise to
execute the laws shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both."
I'm not sure how Kent State could have happened in light of that. Pehaps Viet Nam era scholars could clarify. The only exception to this seems to be in cases of nuclear material.
Jafo: I wish you were right. It would be nice to think no one would want guns if they were hard to get. Perhaps we should outlaw drugs... or even alchohol, too...
oh, wait...
bakerstreet
Reply #25 Wednesday, October 16, 2002 12:40 AM
Reply #25 Wednesday, October 16, 2002 12:40 AM
p.s. in reference to the terrorism thing, I just heard on the news that a witness identified a "dark-skinned" shooter, in the words of the reporter "arab or hispanic, but not black".
this troubles me. Can a white guy not have a tan? I would really find it hard to believe that any arab terrorist would leave behing a Tarot card (which is a no-no itself) inscribed with the words "I am God".
ignore me, I'm rambling. I've been staring at .maki files too long... like I needed another scripting language..
this troubles me. Can a white guy not have a tan? I would really find it hard to believe that any arab terrorist would leave behing a Tarot card (which is a no-no itself) inscribed with the words "I am God".
ignore me, I'm rambling. I've been staring at .maki files too long... like I needed another scripting language..
Jafo
Reply #26 Wednesday, October 16, 2002 12:42 AM
Reply #26 Wednesday, October 16, 2002 12:42 AM
Gawd....50 meters....and there was I at 600 yards...
Baker...the problem is that the guns are already 'got'....so it's too late.
And I am right, and you know it....
There will always be some poor misguided fool who believes it is a God-given right to own and use a gun, and they will always pipe up with some piddling argument about deterents, etc.
Why ever did anyone worry about the Cold War Arms Race in the 50's, 60's and 70's when US society has an Arms Race of its own?....'you got an assault rifle?, I better get a bazooka, then'...
Baker...the problem is that the guns are already 'got'....so it's too late.
And I am right, and you know it....
There will always be some poor misguided fool who believes it is a God-given right to own and use a gun, and they will always pipe up with some piddling argument about deterents, etc.
Why ever did anyone worry about the Cold War Arms Race in the 50's, 60's and 70's when US society has an Arms Race of its own?....'you got an assault rifle?, I better get a bazooka, then'...
The Rated PG
Reply #27 Wednesday, October 16, 2002 7:07 AM
Reply #27 Wednesday, October 16, 2002 7:07 AM
The right on the spot death sentence comment. I meant after a fair trial. Who ever said it was a God given right to own a gun?
paxx
Reply #28 Wednesday, October 16, 2002 9:08 AM
Reply #28 Wednesday, October 16, 2002 9:08 AM
I am convinced this guy is a trained professional. My guess goes to maybe some paramilitary wacko. Cold-blooded shot. Directly to the head. Never missed. Always only once. Sorry, but a human head is no chestnut. A parking lot is not an open field. Extreme calm and concentration is needed dispite the fact that anybody can see you, despite the fact that the police could show up any time. Dispite the fact that the target is moving, unlike the chestnut. I know I can shoot an apple from 50 yards no problem, But a human head in the middle of a busy parking lot? I'd probably miss 3 times out of 3.
ToeJo
Reply #29 Wednesday, October 16, 2002 9:55 AM
Reply #29 Wednesday, October 16, 2002 9:55 AM
Interesting thoughts. I think I would have to agree that it is NOT al-Qaida. I would also have to agree that this person or persons would have some type military background.
Jafo...No type of gun control would stop a crazed killer like this. But, it would curb or slow down things like children going into daddy's closet, playing with his shiny silver handgun and accidently blowing his sister away. Or for that matter, the teenager that goes to his daddy's closet to get some guns to kill his classmates because they taunted him one to many times. For those reasons...yes gun control is an option to look at.
However, as you said earlier, it's too late now. The genie is out of the bottle and we can't go back. My dad and my brother are both card carrying members of the NRA. (If they saw my post I would, at least, get sceamed at, and at most, get force-fed a nuckle sandwich.) If George and the boys on capitol hill told everyone that certain hand guns were going to be illegal tomorrow. They, and the rest thier NRA fans, would by as many as they could today, and bury them in thier back yard. The fact is...there is no simple answer. Maybe no answer at all. If you want to carry a gun around you have to pay the price. My question is this...Is a dead child, mother, father, husband, wife, worth the right? I think not! But the fact is...we are paying it!
BTW, last time I looked, the bible never said anything about everyone's right to have a gun. It's not in my bible...maybe it's in Ossama's quorin bible thingy?
Jafo...No type of gun control would stop a crazed killer like this. But, it would curb or slow down things like children going into daddy's closet, playing with his shiny silver handgun and accidently blowing his sister away. Or for that matter, the teenager that goes to his daddy's closet to get some guns to kill his classmates because they taunted him one to many times. For those reasons...yes gun control is an option to look at.
However, as you said earlier, it's too late now. The genie is out of the bottle and we can't go back. My dad and my brother are both card carrying members of the NRA. (If they saw my post I would, at least, get sceamed at, and at most, get force-fed a nuckle sandwich.) If George and the boys on capitol hill told everyone that certain hand guns were going to be illegal tomorrow. They, and the rest thier NRA fans, would by as many as they could today, and bury them in thier back yard. The fact is...there is no simple answer. Maybe no answer at all. If you want to carry a gun around you have to pay the price. My question is this...Is a dead child, mother, father, husband, wife, worth the right? I think not! But the fact is...we are paying it!
BTW, last time I looked, the bible never said anything about everyone's right to have a gun. It's not in my bible...maybe it's in Ossama's quorin bible thingy?
KarmaGirl
Reply #30 Wednesday, October 16, 2002 10:31 AM
Reply #30 Wednesday, October 16, 2002 10:31 AM
Jafo, you know I love you , but I think your dead wrong on the whole gun issue. And, this is one opinion that I have that nobody will ever change, so don't even try.
I truly believe that the person that is doing this is not some Joe Schmo that took his legally bought hunting gun out of his basement and just decided one day to start picking people off. He is trained. He may have been an ex-cop or was trained in a military or has spent many hours of target practice at a range. The gun that he is using is probably modified, and may not even have been legally obtained.
This would not happen if Americans did not have the right to have guns? How can you take away guns? I know how to make a gun. I also know how to make knives and hatchets. I know how to shoot a compound bow and arrow, shot many types of guns (including muzzle loaders), and I know how to throw knives and hatchets with great accuracy. I grew up with hunters as grandfathers, uncles and father. My Grandparents belonged to muzzler loader associations, and my father is a card carrying NRA member. (Put one of those stickers on your window- it's better than any alarm system you can buy!)
I have never used a weapon to injure or kill anything. I know their power and I respect them. Rifles have their place. They are necessary for our hunting seasons for population control of animals. I would never kill an animal (heck, I don't even like to eat that much meat.....and I never eat anything that is still attached to the bone) but I understand why hunting is a necessary evil. I respect it. I know that you don't point a gun at something unless you want to kill it.
Guns are not the problem. *People* are the problem. Certain people do not value human life. So what if guns were illegal? You can't get rid of violence. People would make bombs or set fires. They will run over people with their cars. If somebody is going to kill people, they will do it. It has nothing to do with the gun.
How many people die a year during *elective* surgery? (Should we ban it? If it's elective, it's not needed.) How many people die because of car accidents? (should we not be allowed to drive?) How many people die of alcohol related problems? (guess there should be no more drinking) How many people die because of smoking? (that should go, too!) All these things are legal, and each one individually cause more deaths per year in the US than guns do.
This guy is a nut. It has nothing to do with gun control. It has to do with mankind.
, but I think your dead wrong on the whole gun issue. And, this is one opinion that I have that nobody will ever change, so don't even try. I truly believe that the person that is doing this is not some Joe Schmo that took his legally bought hunting gun out of his basement and just decided one day to start picking people off. He is trained. He may have been an ex-cop or was trained in a military or has spent many hours of target practice at a range. The gun that he is using is probably modified, and may not even have been legally obtained.
This would not happen if Americans did not have the right to have guns? How can you take away guns? I know how to make a gun. I also know how to make knives and hatchets. I know how to shoot a compound bow and arrow, shot many types of guns (including muzzle loaders), and I know how to throw knives and hatchets with great accuracy. I grew up with hunters as grandfathers, uncles and father. My Grandparents belonged to muzzler loader associations, and my father is a card carrying NRA member. (Put one of those stickers on your window- it's better than any alarm system you can buy!)
I have never used a weapon to injure or kill anything. I know their power and I respect them. Rifles have their place. They are necessary for our hunting seasons for population control of animals. I would never kill an animal (heck, I don't even like to eat that much meat.....and I never eat anything that is still attached to the bone) but I understand why hunting is a necessary evil. I respect it. I know that you don't point a gun at something unless you want to kill it.
Guns are not the problem. *People* are the problem. Certain people do not value human life. So what if guns were illegal? You can't get rid of violence. People would make bombs or set fires. They will run over people with their cars. If somebody is going to kill people, they will do it. It has nothing to do with the gun.
How many people die a year during *elective* surgery? (Should we ban it? If it's elective, it's not needed.) How many people die because of car accidents? (should we not be allowed to drive?) How many people die of alcohol related problems? (guess there should be no more drinking) How many people die because of smoking? (that should go, too!) All these things are legal, and each one individually cause more deaths per year in the US than guns do.
This guy is a nut. It has nothing to do with gun control. It has to do with mankind.
paxx
Reply #32 Wednesday, October 16, 2002 11:15 AM
Reply #32 Wednesday, October 16, 2002 11:15 AM
Don't want to get into a gun control argument, but it will always amaze me how guns are considered just an every day product in the USA.
Grocery list:
- Bread
- Milk
- New gun
It even more amazes me how the subject of gun control is as sensitive as religion. It kills people for crying out loud. Anyway, this is a dead topic, the same way a religious debate is.
I'm just amazed, that's all. And it's the reason why I would never ever ever live in the USA. My wife is American, and when we decied to get married, the question of where to live was very quick to make. America may be richer, but Canada is safe.
Grocery list:
- Bread
- Milk
- New gun
It even more amazes me how the subject of gun control is as sensitive as religion. It kills people for crying out loud. Anyway, this is a dead topic, the same way a religious debate is.
I'm just amazed, that's all. And it's the reason why I would never ever ever live in the USA. My wife is American, and when we decied to get married, the question of where to live was very quick to make. America may be richer, but Canada is safe.
bakerstreet
Reply #33 Wednesday, October 16, 2002 12:06 PM
Reply #33 Wednesday, October 16, 2002 12:06 PM
Jafo: yup, you're right. So are the ten commandents, enforcement is the problem...
What amazes me is that people understand that, though they are illegal, anyone can get drugs anytime they want them, anywhere in the world. Those same people, though, think that outlawing guns will make them impossible to get.
I know people who would make the argument to legalize marajuana and outlaw guns in the same breath. For some reason regulating pot is safer, and guns will simply melt into the earth the moment society shuns them. Granted, it is easier and cheaper in some places to build a bomb than to buy a gun...
Mexico has much stronger gun laws than the US. Carrying a single round of ammunition into Mexico can get you jailed for 5 years. If you have the time, look into their crime statistics.
This is one of the rare arguments that I *know* is pointless. Gun ownership is a given everywhere in the world, some people simply refuse to acknowledge it. I own more than one, and if they were outlawed I wouldn't bury them, I'd obey the law. Only honest people would, though, and frankly honest people aren't the problem.
What amazes me is that people understand that, though they are illegal, anyone can get drugs anytime they want them, anywhere in the world. Those same people, though, think that outlawing guns will make them impossible to get.
I know people who would make the argument to legalize marajuana and outlaw guns in the same breath. For some reason regulating pot is safer, and guns will simply melt into the earth the moment society shuns them. Granted, it is easier and cheaper in some places to build a bomb than to buy a gun...
Mexico has much stronger gun laws than the US. Carrying a single round of ammunition into Mexico can get you jailed for 5 years. If you have the time, look into their crime statistics.
This is one of the rare arguments that I *know* is pointless. Gun ownership is a given everywhere in the world, some people simply refuse to acknowledge it. I own more than one, and if they were outlawed I wouldn't bury them, I'd obey the law. Only honest people would, though, and frankly honest people aren't the problem.
KarmaGirl
Reply #34 Wednesday, October 16, 2002 12:17 PM
Reply #34 Wednesday, October 16, 2002 12:17 PM
Paxx, Canada probably is safer, but I don't think that guns are the only factor. One large factor that people don't look at in the US is where these crimes take place. They happen in places that are over populated and usually have a massive gap between the rich and poor. Any time that you push too many people together, you will see crime (this is why Japan has such extremely strict laws on weapons). It goes back to human nature, and possibly the environmental factors of being so populated in a certain area. (For example: I never knew what "road rage" was until I moved away from my small hometown). There was also no crime in my small home town. I know of two people who took their lives with shotguns, and one brother who shot the other in the leg due to him stealing his dog. That was all in the 21 years that I lived there.
Here is a good link:
http://www.guncontrol.ca/Content/Cda-US.htm
One thing to keep in mind, this is there to promote guns laws in Canada, and I am sure the statistics are used in a way to show that point of view (as we all know that statistics can be molded into what you are trying to prove). Yes, the US has a much higher rate of gun violence. We also have a much greater rate of violence in general (twice that of Canada). What else is missing from this is: how are the rest of the crimes committed in Canada? It doesn't say.
I would like to see some real data per country throughout the world on crimes committed. Not just by guns, but all crime and compare them. It would also be nice to see the other factors involved, such as population, race of the community (I know we would rather ignore that one, but...), education of the people involved, how the person who committed the crime was raised (single parent, foster care, happy home..) I think you get the point. There are so many factors involved in crime. It's easy to point the finger at the gun, but we should really be looking at why these people commit the crimes- all crimes.
And, you are right Paxx, it is a debate that will never end. It's just like all politics, religion, abortion laws, etc. There will never be one "right" opinion.
Here is a good link:
http://www.guncontrol.ca/Content/Cda-US.htm
One thing to keep in mind, this is there to promote guns laws in Canada, and I am sure the statistics are used in a way to show that point of view (as we all know that statistics can be molded into what you are trying to prove). Yes, the US has a much higher rate of gun violence. We also have a much greater rate of violence in general (twice that of Canada). What else is missing from this is: how are the rest of the crimes committed in Canada? It doesn't say.
I would like to see some real data per country throughout the world on crimes committed. Not just by guns, but all crime and compare them. It would also be nice to see the other factors involved, such as population, race of the community (I know we would rather ignore that one, but...), education of the people involved, how the person who committed the crime was raised (single parent, foster care, happy home..) I think you get the point. There are so many factors involved in crime. It's easy to point the finger at the gun, but we should really be looking at why these people commit the crimes- all crimes.
And, you are right Paxx, it is a debate that will never end. It's just like all politics, religion, abortion laws, etc. There will never be one "right" opinion.
The Rated PG
Reply #35 Wednesday, October 16, 2002 12:24 PM
Reply #35 Wednesday, October 16, 2002 12:24 PM
Someone murdered someone in my town with a steak knife. Should we make steaks illegal or steak knifes illegal? Someone also assualted someone with a baseball bat. Do we make the game of baseball illegal, the ball, or the bat? Or all of them? Talk amongst yourselves. 
Asimo
Reply #36 Wednesday, October 16, 2002 12:25 PM
Reply #36 Wednesday, October 16, 2002 12:25 PM
btw - with such a good description of the vehicle out now, my guess is that *if* they try again it will be from a new vehicle. I say *if* because there is always that slight chance that they will stop... Like the Zodiac.
paxx
Reply #37 Wednesday, October 16, 2002 1:05 PM
Reply #37 Wednesday, October 16, 2002 1:05 PM
Come on now...
Two cities with about the same population, similar demographics:
Philadelphia, homicides per year: approx. 400
Montreal, homicides per year: approx. 80
Anyway. It's your country, it's none of my business.
Two cities with about the same population, similar demographics:
Philadelphia, homicides per year: approx. 400
Montreal, homicides per year: approx. 80
Anyway. It's your country, it's none of my business.
paxx
Reply #38 Wednesday, October 16, 2002 1:14 PM
Reply #38 Wednesday, October 16, 2002 1:14 PM
Ah forget it.
Ignore the above post. I don't want to argument.
Ignore the above post. I don't want to argument.
KarmaGirl
Reply #39 Wednesday, October 16, 2002 1:37 PM
Reply #39 Wednesday, October 16, 2002 1:37 PM
Paxx, you were actually making one of my points, though. Why does the US have so much crime? It's easy to point to the guns as the problem, but I think we need to dig further. We need to look at why the people do it. As I stated above "We also have a much greater rate of violence in general (twice that of Canada)." So, why is that? And, actually, that "twice that of Canada" is non-gun related crimes. So why are we more violent? I somehow doubt that giving Canadians guns would make them more violent. I am pretty sure that they can easily get them from the states if they really wanted to. My major point is: Don't blame the guns, blame the people.
ToeJo
Reply #40 Wednesday, October 16, 2002 1:42 PM
Reply #40 Wednesday, October 16, 2002 1:42 PM
It is certainly a debate that will never end. I did not mean for the thread to go there, but frankly, it's good to hear everyones side. I'm just happy to see that we have gone over 24 hours without another attack from this (these) idiot(s). My heart goes out to the victims and their families.
May God Bless them!
May God Bless them!
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Reply #21 Tuesday, October 15, 2002 11:35 PM
In my opinion, this kind of stuff would stop if this happened--" When they catch this guy, execute him right on the spot on live television, and then tell the viewers, this is wrong and this will happen if you do the same thing."