Tast: I used to concider stopping in at the office when I go up that way... but nah.. I'd just get a blanket party and a few hard noogies now hehehe

. It's like a virus! Get that man a beer!

No one responded to this particular point so I'm going to articulate it again because it's a pretty strong point:

http://www.lighttek.com/themes2/

That is the alternative. Anyone who argues that Stardock needs WinCustomize in the form its in is mistaken. That's because it could do exactly what Lightek has done and point to other sites. It is the hosting costs that are killer now. I think most people would agree that it would be much easier and much cheaper to simply have all the skins, icons, and themes point to other sources on the net just as the Talisman people are doing right now. We'd get all the "marketing" benefit without the cost. Sure, it might cause a few of the skin sites to go under from the bandwidth costs but it is so easy to run a skin site right?

Mwah, perhaps Lighttek is leeching off of DevArt and perhaps they have a deal with them. Not sure about this.

At any rate, ethics anyone? Leeching is evil. I wonder if Talisman would be more popular if Lighttek hosted their themes themselves...

And er, why would anyone have to respond to every point made?

Craeonics, look carefully - they are pointing to MANY different places, not just deviantART. Ever wonder why Talisman is often in the top 5 at Skinz? Because they point some of their themes over.

I think the term is "deep linking". Whether it's ethical or not is subject to debate (I don't like deep linking). I'm just pointing out that other software developers have found alternatives that are far less expensive but achieve the same goal.

Crumbit - "He gets paid more. and now the canvas guy owns a gallery. and He wants me to pay him to display my work? hehe"

Hmm, are you suggesting that we charge Skin Authors to upload their work here?
I don't think that would be a good idea. I'm not about to get tarred and feathered!

Paul,
Im saying that once I pay for a canvas, I dont pay for anything else. If it brings in more biz for the Canvas man, The canvas man shouldnt be askin for money from me to display my art.

While WC/SD is not asking for pay from me to upload here.. they are asking that users pay to get to my free files. Yet I see no proffits.

Also they are asking me to pay to view other artists work.

Now, it hasnt gone that far just yet but it seems to be movin thata way.

I know, but DevArt was most prevalent (as far as I could see). It's also why the Talisman section over at Skinbase got exceptional download counts (not sure whether gRAVE put a stop to that).

But er, I think I'm missing the point somewhere. "You" could have just set things up to point to other sites, but instead "you" created this site. And it is more expensive this way. Hurray hurray, good for you, but the point was? So StarDock chose the hard path and therefore can do no more harm? (got to watch out not to turn this into an anti-StarDock thread, that's not what I'm aiming at)

craeonics deletes a looong story explaining my views of the exact inner workings of this site, the motives behind it and more of those shenanigans, all that is besides the point

I finally figured out what is wrong with your reasoning. 1) this site is a tool and each tool has costs; 2) do not rub these off on those that criticise it; 3)also do not overemphasize the costs off this tool against its benifits, as if it's all gloomy, overpresenting one side of the story and neglecting the other side make my "one-sided view" alarm go off; and here it comes: 4) you cannot compare you this site to how Lighttek, Hoverdesk or any other dev that hosts its skins on another server, does it, because these guys are peanuts compared to "you".

It's a bit like what my parents always told me: "Eat your meal. The starving kids in Africa would be overjoyed if they would have it" --> No, they wouldn't, because they would not be starving anymore then and no I won't because I am not in Africa. "You" are the parents and the other devs are the starving kids in Africa. No comparison.

Crummy and beardman snuck in there. Post was started below froggies'.

But enough fluff for today.

Crumbut, I accidently posted that under my test account. I just changed it to properly show it as me now.

craeonics - "3)also do not overemphasize the costs off this tool against its benifits"

Its the other way around. You over emphasize the benifits that WinCustomize gives to Stardock. From the days of the Stardock Library to today with WinCustomize the Costs of running a skin library for Stardock has risen dramatically. But the sales have remained fairly constant. Yes, I'm sure Stardock gets some sales because of WinCustomize but no where enough to justify the cost that we are currently putting into it. Everyone 'assumes' that WinCustomize generates a ton of sales. But in reality it has not.

So please stop assuming that Stardock's sole purpose of WinCustomize is to promote the sales of its products. That is simply not the case.

But T-Man you can't say that without a skin library whether it be the old stardock library or wincusto that stardock would sell software in the current climate. IE skinz.org (as it was) it gone for all intents and purposes. So please stop claiming that Wincusto has little or no bearing on sales or renewal with new version or ODNT renewals. If I had to search all over the internet to find skins for WB when I first started with WB it would have been fun for a while but the fun would have worn thin. By stardock having a library at the time it made skinz easy to find and thus held my intrest.


I understand that it costs to run it but it also costs to advertize in the real world doesn't it.

It is no problem to me that stardock uses Wincusto as a marketing (advertizement) tool, I understand that it is and enjoy the site. I just wish that the cost of the site would stop being the main focus of everything.

the Skinbrowser/subscription announcement didn't have to have anything said about the cost of the site it could have just stated that for a small fee Wincustomize would offer extra content and the skinbrowser.


TasT thinks another beer is in order.....

Maybe Stardock now gets the majority of its sales as a result of WC, and the other sources of custom have gradually failed over time. There's something scary to think about...

With regard to us not answering Brad's comments, how about answering a couple of the original questions that davad70 and myself asked way back up there? What happened to the extra events at the end of the GUI Olympics, and to the 'Gooey Awards'? It seems every time someone asks this question it gets very conveniently overlooked.

Well, I've been reading this for a while and have managed to hold off on commenting.

Here's what I don't get (and welcome those to clue me in:)): Davad70 is a pretty hefty contributor to this site - I didn't actually find the exact number but there were quite a few. I read that he's not happy with the fact that, as a regular contributor, he's not getting the skinbrowser, exclusing suites, etc. that a WC subscriber is getting. Now, I'm not a skinner here (a previous topic somewhere has me mentioning my artistic skills stopping at stick people ), but I don't think that any of this was available to him prior to the subscription model (Again, I may be wrong - did contributors here receive the special skins that Alexandrie & Treetog did for the CDs???).

As far as WC charging the subscription, there seems to be some people that do not think it right that they charge to essentially allow unlimited access to others work. That somehow they're reaping the benefits of everyone else's hard work designing and creating all these wonderful skins for WB, DesktopX, etc. This line of thought ties in directly with a later discussion on "deep linking" (linking to other sites as opposed to hosting the file directly). I ask the skinners out here, which would you rather have: 1) WC hosting the file directly and perhaps charging an OPTIONAL small fee for those that want unlimited d/ls (I see that as being the primary benefit of the subscription) or 2) Deep Linking to a site that the skinner themselves has to put up, operate, maintain, PAY FOR, etc.? Sure, I suppose that WC could link to devArt where you've uploaded your skin, but what happens when dA starts doing the same thing? Eventually there would be no where left to link to EXCEPT for the skinners own home page. While this idea COULD work, I don't think it would be successful. How many times would a user attempt to d/l a skin and get a 404 error or something along those lines before saying screw it and giving up completely?

Even though I'm a registered ODNT subscriber and would thusly have access to the unlimited d/ls, I, personally, don't have a problem with shelling out the $20 for the subscription? Why? Because I d/l a fair amount of skins. Sometimes I just d/l them to see what they'll look like on my system because the zoom is such a crappy image it's still hard to tell (especially on some of the ICQ skins!). So, I consider my $20 well spent in that aspect. I already see the money I shell out yearly for ODNT as being MORE than well spent! How can I expect those funds to cover even MORE than they already do? I can't - ergo - I pay for the subscription.

As for the ratings, I've NEVER handed out a negative rating. If there's something wrong with the skin, I'll post a comment (or email the author directly). I don't think I've ever issued a rating less than 7. Now, do I ever look at ratings when considering whether or not I want to d/l it? Nope. NEVER. If it looks good, I grab it. If not, I pass.

So here's my summation: I'm a user. Not a skinner. I greatly appreciate all the hard work the skinners on this site put forth. I also appreciate all the work that T-Man, Alexandrie, and whoever else it is that works on the backend of this site puts forth. I'm not sure if they get paid or not but it doesn't matter to me - they do a kickass job!

Now, all that said - maybe I've missed the entire point of this thread but I just don't understand all the griping about optionally paying $20 to further support WC. Maybe if it was mandatory I could understand but it's not.

So, in closing, to all those skinners & admins out there - KEEP ON DOING THE GREAT JOBS YOU DO!
To all those who just, for whatever reason, can't seem to get past the optional contribution and do not like the idea of users opting to pay to get access to skins that are free either a) don't pay and don't download or don't skin the product and withdraw your skins from the site (I hope that this never happens because ANY loss to the community is just that - a loss, but it seems that for some, it will be the only way to make them happy)

Hehe...looks like I managed to catch the Brad-osis virus...

Thanks RobbieRobb.

People don't come to this site primarily because of word of mouth, most people learned of this site through Stardock (60%+ of referrals are from Stardock). We know to a pretty strong degree how effective this site is at generating new sales versus supporting existing ones and while there is some benefit to Stardock as a marketing tool, it is nowhere near making up for the costs.

As has been pointed out, Stardock could just have a library that links to higlighted skins on the net like Talisman does. It would be nearly as effective as a marketing tool at WinCustomize is. It's that simple.

Skin authors do us a favor by allowing us to display their skin. But skin authors get something in return - hosting. WinCustomize hosts that skin. People take that hosting for granted and they shouldn't. The site could have been designed where instead of uploading the skin, the skin author provides the LINK to where to download it.

The cost of this hosting plus the fact that anyone reading this must surely realize that this site is vastly more than just a skin library is considerable - $150k per year easily.

Therefore, WinCustomize does have to start carrying its share of the weight. All the analogies in the world don't change the fact that WinCustomize cannot continue on the course it has been where it just eats up more and more bandwidth.

The options are to either raise the prices on software or to encourage users who use this site heavily to contribute to its maintainence. The problem I have with raising software prices is that people should be purchasing the software, not subsidizing the downloading of say Litestep themes or wallpapers or whatever.

Either our software has to increase in price to pay for this site or this site has to find ways of paying for itself.

The site doesn't necesarily have to generate $150,000 in subscriptions or other things because there is some marketing benefit to the site. But it does need to generate some amount >$0.

The debate shouldn't whether the site should have paid-subscriptions, because it's not open to debate. If we don't get enough subscribers then we'll have to find a way to lower bandwidth costs through restricting downloads on skins, icons, themes, that we host.

Business 101: A business has to generate more income than expenses. We either increase income or we lower expenses. Expenses are already much lower than they would otherwise be thanks to a massive amount of volunteerism. The big expense with a bullseye on it is reliable bandwidth. So we have to find a way to pay for it - either use less of it or find a way to pay for it.

Regarding the extra goodies: They were being sent out presently. While the rules implied that it was an (get one of these items) it's probably best to just send out goodies. Davad should already have his now.

As someone who has skins available here, I personally don't have a problem with the subscription charges.
If each skin was being indivdually sold, that would be wrong, but the fact is that people are only being charged to expand the amount they can download each month. And since the cash goes back into the site, it doesn't seem too big a deal.

Not long after this site first started, I hated the direction I believed it was taking.I even said so in a thread related to it. I deleted my skins and stayed clear of WC.(I wasn't going to bitch[well, not too much,hehe], I merely stated my opinions and left).
Now?
Now I love the way the site is going, and I think too much shit gets slung at Stardock, Wincustomize and Brad in particular.

I don't really agree with most of the negatives in this thread, this site has become one of the best in the skinning/graphics scene(my opinion), and Stardock are a fine company.The GUI Olympics proved that.
I'm sure Stardock make a fair bit of cash every year, but to give 10 grand + prizes out, is still incredibly generous.

And Brad, please reconsider your decision regarding the summer Glimpics.
As someone stated earlier (T-man I think) , people only pass comment when they're pissed off.
If you took a fair bit of a pelting from the naysayers,then think how many people must have enjoyed the GUI Olympics. (I know I did)

I feel sorry for those people trying to load this page on Dialup.....Geez....It takes long enough for me and I am on Cable through Roadrunner. God forbid there be anyone on a 28.8 or 33.6 Modem out there.

Frogboy>> That wasn't the question I was referring to. It was the question of what happened to the extra five bonus categories that were talked about toward the end of the contest. They were hyped up, although with some secrecy, and then never materialised as the contest just sort of fizzled out. There was also talk of an awards 'ceremony' here at WC called the 'Gooeys', intended to reward outstanding contribution to the site by individuals. That never happened either, despite the talk of the event making it sound like it was all planned out and ready to go.