I'm pissed
Saturday, May 18, 2002 by davad70 | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
1. Why is it that lately this site seems to be disregarding the wishes of skinners more and more often? The majority of skinners, as well as many of the wizops/admins who are actually skinners, want to scrap the rating system. Do the wishes and requests of skinners matter to the people who run this site on this issue? Apparently not. I’ve also not come across a skinner who thinks that the libraries should be sorted by the date they were updated, but now they are. It was decided a ways back that the fair thing to do was to sort the libraries by create date. Now with the launch of WC2, we are back to sorting libraries by date of update. Why? Because Frogboy wants it that way. It doesn’t matter that most of the skinners want it another way. Frogboy wants…Frogboy gets.
2. We hear quite a lot about the heavy burden that Wincustomize has placed upon Stardock. We also hear quite a bit about how popular WC has become in the past year. I’m curious as to why this site has become so popular. Personally I think it’s popularity is mostly due to the fact that people can get skins from some of the best skinners in the world here, who give their skins freely. We also hear a lot about the fact that Wc needs to be able to support itself, and not be funded directly by Stardock. Yet it seems that Stardock will always be in control of this site and that it will never truly be a “community site”. So I ask, why shouldn’t Stardock pay for this site? It seems to me that this site is the greatest marketing tool that Stardock has. I would think that people buy Windowblinds and the other programs to be able to use the skins that they see on this site. So with the advent of the subscriber program what benefits do skinners get? Ummm, we get unlimited downloads just as we always have before. BTW, that’s the same benefit that OD (which I am also) users get also. So, the fact that I’ve submitted 15 skins since the first of the year gets me nothing. My contribution is apparently not better than Joe Blow downloader who paid $20. Joe Blow gets the skin browser, “exclusive suites”, etc. I get nothing but the privilege of downloading my skins as much as I want. J
3. Now to the issue that’s really got me pissed off to the degree that I finally am fed up. Anyone remember the GUI Olympics? Anyone remember the prizes that Frogboy stated that Honorable mention winners would receive? Let me refresh your memory. Anyone who picked up an honorable mention will get a free copy of Object Desktop (or a renewal), an Object Desktop sweat shirt, a T-shirt, a LWNinja T-shirt and some other goodies. Those who won multiple honorable mentions will be given additional Object Desktop renewals. posted by Lord Frogboy - 4/2/2002 1:07:58 PM. Well, I won an honorable mention and didn’t receive anything until I contacted them. They just forgot about me. That was no big deal to me, sometimes thing like that happen. So I got an email saying that my OD subscription was renewed and it was. Great right? Well, I waited about 2 weeks to get the other goodies that I had coming. Still didn’t get them, so I write back to ask when I would be getting all the other stuff. Basically I was told that they changed their mind and were not sending out any of the actual physical prizes. I then contacted some other skinners who won honorable mentions to see if they got their prizes. They all got their OD renewals, but no one got any of the other prizes for honorable mention prizes. After emailing Brad back he tells me that I should have gotten those other prizes (yes, I know that), and that he’ll check with the person who sent out the prizes to see whats going on. This is the same person that told me that there weren’t going to be any physical prizes given out for honorable mentions. Sounds very odd to me.
So….am I overreacting, or do I have a right to be a tad pissed?
Reply #2 Saturday, May 18, 2002 5:23 PM
From: "Stardock Sales" | Block Address | Add to Address Book
To: "[email protected]"
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 16:22:51 -0400
Reply-to: "Stardock Sales"
Subject: Re: Use of Skins for WindowBlinds CD
Chad,
We will send you a CD when we have them.
Please send me your information:
Name
Address
Preferred Email Address
Do you currently own WB or Object Desktop?
Thanks,
Kim
--Original Message Text---
From: Chad R
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 13:51:51 -0700 (PDT)
Yes!
Kim are the people who have provided skins going to get a CD?
Stardock Sales wrote:
Good Day!
We have compiled a list of skins which we would like to include on the first 1000 CDs manufactured of WindowBlinds version 2. I am writing to request your
permission to include at least one of your skins on this CD.
Please let me know ASAP whether or not you would be willing allow us to include your skins. And, of course, if you have any questions, please feel free to
contact me.
Thanks so much,
Kim Kolaz
External Relations Manager
Reply #3 Saturday, May 18, 2002 5:44 PM
Reply #4 Saturday, May 18, 2002 5:44 PM
Reply #5 Saturday, May 18, 2002 6:05 PM

But, really. Brad is a nice guy, but I've never seen anything he says not be the final word.

Reply #6 Saturday, May 18, 2002 6:09 PM
Reply #7 Saturday, May 18, 2002 7:20 PM
1) I agree. The library should, by default, be sorted in descending order of creation date. Listing the skins in order of last update only creates hassles when you want to just browse the library to see what's new. As it is, you have to wade through all the updated old skins before you get to anything new. The chances of missing new skins entirely is high.
I know we have the 'Newest Additions' box, but when you go away for a few days and come back, a lot of stuff has passed by.
2) Although I can see your point about skinners not being rewarded for their work, I don't see any way this could be fixed. It would be nice for the regular contributers to get something back, as it's mostly the work of those skinners which drives sales of WindowBlinds. Without the skinners, and the large number of good skins they create, WindowBlinds wouldn't be anywhere near as successful as it is today. The only problem with giving special priviledges to regular contributers is the obvious outcome where WC is flooded with hundreds of poor skins, created for the sole purpose of getting a cheap deal.
It has been discussed previously that those skinners who get the really high download figures should be rewarded somehow, but even that can be cheated.
3) Aside from the medals I won, I also got an honorable mention in the GUI Olympics. I too was expecting a package to arrive with all the prizes Brad had promised, but when it didn't come (aside from the OD renewal e-mail) I chose not to make a big thing of it because of the generous amount of cash prizes I received. I do think we were all mislead to some extent, but as with most of the other problems that occurred during the contest, it's probably just been chalked up to 'teething troubles' which will be fixed for the next contest. I was disappointed not to receive those other prizes, perhaps strangely so considering what I did get given. Maybe it was just a case of hightened expectations broken at the last hurdle. Whatever my feelings though, I was still happy with what I did receive. For those people who only managed to scoop an honorable mention or two though, I can imagine that they'd feel pretty crushed at what happened.
I would also like to add something more concerning the GUI Olympics. Whatever happened to those five extra categories that we were all promised at the end of the contest? They were mentioned over and over, and yet when they were supposed to happen the contest just sort of fizzled out. There was talk of the categories being moved into the 'new WC awards called The Gooeys', but then those didn't materialise either. It seems a lot of promises are being broken, and that's not good for the site or the skinners who support it.
Reply #8 Saturday, May 18, 2002 7:53 PM
/note to self come back to this envelope tomorrow
Reply #9 Saturday, May 18, 2002 9:52 PM
1- Stardock tries to be sensitive to the opinions of all the members of our community and of skinners in particular. Brad IS a skinner and never forgets it. David, I am sorry if you feel that we have not responded to your "wishes and requests." I am not sure that I agree with you about the rating system (I thought it was fine), but if you feel that you have been ignored, then something serious is wrong. I am truly sorry.
2- Stardock does pay a lot for the bandwidth and we put a lot of effort into the maintainence of the site. We feel that by combining a subscription such as other sites offer, along with a valuable software appliction like SkinBrowser, we provide enough value that prople will want to subscribe. Getting people to subscibe ids the best way to assure its continuance.
If you go back to the inception of WinCustomize, Stardock stepped in when other sites were closing. We wanted to make sure that skinners would always have a place to post their works.
3- Our intention in sponsoring the GUI-Olympics was to create an event to bring together the sites and individuals that make up the skinning community. From your email to Brad, it sounds like we have failed to execute on some of promises. I am sorry and we will try to make things right.
Larry K. - Stardock Sales
Reply #10 Saturday, May 18, 2002 10:05 PM
However, have any of you skinners thought of merging the skinning sites into one??? One that is run and solely operated by the skinners? All of the skinners to upload to their site only.....You can sell a subscription to this site to pay all the costs..OR there are many other ways to support a site such as this. Then you can ALL have all the fun and relaxation you all deserve.Without the aggravation.
Reply #11 Saturday, May 18, 2002 10:54 PM
Davad: I understand your frustration. I don't personally mail out packages and frankly I don't recall the exact prizes for the different events. However, if we said we are going to send shirts and other goodies then we need to do so. I will personally talk to Customer Relations and find out what's what.
That said, I reallly wish people would stop personalizing all the problems in the skinning world on me personally. I'm one guy. I compile a list of the various winners on the GUI olympics and mail it off to CR. I know that the cash prizes were sent since I had to sign the checks. But I don't personally Fed Ex packages out. I don't personally run WinCustomize. I don't personally design the site or program the software or code the database. To say that all decisions on the site are made by me is giving me far too much credit/blame (for instance, I'm against having polls on the site, I think they clutter it up, I'm against having updated skins and new skins being seperated, there are certain apps I want to have sections for that we don't, etc.). So please try not to personalize so much.
Davad: You emailed me today at 12:03PM, I responded to you at 12:42PM - 39 MINUTES ON A SATURDAY . How much faster of a response could I have possibly provided?
Let me repeat what I said in my email:
YOU SHOULD HAVE ALREADY RECEIVED THOSE ITEMS.
I will personally look into what happened (including the deal with Crumbut's CD).
Now, that said, what other company does more for skinners? Please tell me. I'd really like to know because it sure seems that we (and me in particular) get an awful lot of grief. I've got ChiChigirl calling us "greedy" over on one site and there's always someone out there trying to paint us as the evil empire.
Having just sent out thousands of dollars to skin sites and skinners for the GUI Olympics (and despite the obviousness that there are lots of WB skins already, we still saw people trying to say it was some sort of marketing-only thing), you can imagine how it feels to have someone say we don't "care" about skinners. And all because of a couple site features common to virtually every site? deviantART has ratings, Deskmod has ratings, Customize has ratings. And these sites default sort by them. And same for software. You think I get a kick out of having our rating on one of our programs on a download site getting screwed up by some ticked off Mac or Linux fanatic? It happens all the time. But as a general rule for most things ratings (whether for movies, software, or other artistic things) are a fact of life that do help users in a general sense. The most that is going to happen is that we'd move it to be only admins ratings things. Right now, only apprentices on up can rate skins (i.e. people who have contributed in some way, not just joe blow off the net).
Regarding why WinCustomize is so popular
There are many reasons I could list. But the #1 reason is because great skinners submit their work here. The question then is, why do they do that? Let me offer one reason: because skinners trust us. Not by our words but by our deeds. They know that their hard work won't just disappear. They know we will protect their work. They know that top skinners are admins on this site. Respecting skinners is not the same to just bowing down to every individual skinner's desire.
Regarding skinners rights
One reminder: I am a skinner. That's my name currently at #4. I make skins for many different programs and not just Stardock ones. I was one of the very first eFX skinners as some of you may recall. I was making 24bit icons 10 years ago. I've been skinning things for a very long time.
Let me offer a cautionary observation:
Our "community" requires a delicate balance to thrive. You have the skin authors, the software developers, the skin sites, and the users. Each has to be balanced accordingly. When one group feels they are superior to all others, it does not bold well for the future of a community.
Reply #13 Saturday, May 18, 2002 11:31 PM
As far as the me saying that this site doesn't care about skinners....I apologize for that. I know there are several people here in leadership positions that do care. Maybe they're just not the ones pushing the buttons.
About the library sorting....you said yourself a few days ago that YOU decided and asked for it to be that way.
I don't believe that the Olympics were purely a marketing scam like many did. I supported them, and your decisions regarding them from day one. But please don't try to be coy and act as if it was all giving and no receiving on your end.
And you can save your cautionary observation for someone who cares. I don't think myself superior to anyone. I very aware that I'm at best a half-assed skinner. I don't think this site nor any other site should "bow" to the demands of any individual, especially mine. However, it's been obvious for a long time that most of the skinners don't want the rating system. How about we do a poll on that?

Reply #14 Saturday, May 18, 2002 11:34 PM
Reply #15 Saturday, May 18, 2002 11:41 PM
Thank you Larry for being a man and apologizing on behalf of Stardock. As I said before I know there are many, many good people there(SD) and here at WC who do their best to make things right to their customers and the skinners here.Reply #16 Saturday, May 18, 2002 11:51 PM
I'm sorry you weren't satisfied with my response and I'm sorry you feel I'm liar since no, I don't personally handle the shipping out of prizes, I sent the list on, I'm not certain what exactly happened but given that we have sent out thousands of dollars in cash prizes it's disengenous for anyone to imply that the shipping of shirts and other physical items failing to arrive (the least expensive part) constitutes some sort of bad faith on our part.
And just to demonstrate clearly that the GUI Olympics is not a marketing ploy, to that I say, fine, screw it. No more GUI Olympics. Forget the summer GUI Olympics. Because it was 90% an act of good will towards "the community" and all I've gotten is personal attacks and grief from it. So screw it.

Reply #17 Sunday, May 19, 2002 12:02 AM
Hi Dave,
Actually, we ended up not sending out any physical goodies for honorable mentions this time. Sorry for the confusion.
Kim
I find it interesting that she didn't say...oops we forgot about that, we'll get right on it or anything to that effect. Apparently she personally just decided not to send them out eh?
Reply #18 Sunday, May 19, 2002 12:05 AM
Reply #19 Sunday, May 19, 2002 12:12 AM
Many sites are offering subscriptions and all you get for that is removal of pop up ads. We don't have pop up ads, we're providing EXTRA stuff for subscribers rather than trying to punish casual non-subscribers. I'd argue that the skin browser alone is worth $20. I know I'd pay $20 for it. Add to that the skin suites and other site features we're working on and the fact that it helps the site and it's a pretty good deal I think. My dinner tonight cost more than $20 and believe me, in hindsight it was not worth $20.
Frogboy heads over to get the Pepto..

Reply #20 Sunday, May 19, 2002 12:26 AM
Look, someone has to pay for the bandwidth. It's that simple. The $50 Object Desktop subscriptoins don't pay for this site. It subsidized it in the beginning when the site was early on but we're way beyond that now.
For businesses to stay in business they have to have their income greater than their cost. Therefore we have to do one of the following:
a) Raise the price on our software to subsidize this site.
or
I prefer B. I don't see why Object Desktop users should have to pay for WinCustomize. I don't see why a WindowBlinds customer has to pay for the bandwidth of this site. It seems the fairest thing is to come up with something where the people who actually use this site heavily have a way to support it directly.
The best way I can see is through subscriptions. Make it so that ODNT users get unlimited downloads, subscribers get extra goodies and non-subscriber, non-SD customers who heavily use the site do face some limits.
Sure, the site has some beneficial "advertising" effects but not $150,000+ per year in advertising effects. Ask Jorge or Thibaud or any other developer if making desktop enhancements is a get rich quick scheme. It's not. It's a labor of love. Don't let anyone kid you into thinking that somehow the traffic here generates massive numbers of sales. We could just as easily do what Lightek (Talisman) does - simply link to skins on OTHER sites. They're the smart ones: http://www.lighttek.com/themes2/
Skin sites are expensive and we're trying to work it out so that WC can pay for itself and we're doing so by trying to develop value-ad content for those subscribers. I think the skin browser is a good example of it.
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Reply #1 Saturday, May 18, 2002 5:16 PM