the fall of customize?
Wednesday, April 24, 2002 by John Hamp | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
When I first discovered winamp skins I went to a site called customize.org. Then I went to skinz when cust dissapeared. But since cust has come back its become a haven for l33ts. What's the deal there? Whose in charge of the zoo there? Its just wallpapers and screenshots and they constantly attack Stardock's stuff. I read on deskmod the wb3 announcement and the cust admins were on attacking it there. Then on cust itself they attack it some more. What kind of skin site has admins that bad mouth new releases of the software they support on their site?
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Frogboy
Reply #22 Thursday, April 25, 2002 11:28 AM
Reply #22 Thursday, April 25, 2002 11:28 AM
I think his analogy was valid though. I tend to think it's a cop out when people try to excuse obviously bad behavior as just being different.
But that actually isn't what saddens me because at the end of the day there are some absolute measurements of such things: Website success.
Customize.org makes a good textbook case of how important admins are to the success of a site. It's a site that had a good domain, has been around a long time and has lots of sites that link to it. In short, it has every advantage. Yet look at the activity. It's last in # of skin submissions (it's mostly screenshots now and some wallpapers) and the message boards are relatively inactive too.
Now, why is this? Well, in my opinion it's because they have alienated those who are crucial to the success of such a site - skin authors and developers. Last year they completely alienated many of the top skin authors with their terrible treatment of Treetog, Alexandrie and others. And what software developer is going to be anxious to support a site where the admins themselves are just as likely to rip on the software as say something nice?
Now, if their goal is to demonstrate how to destroy a website, then yes, they're very successful. But if their goal is to create a website in which there is a lots of activity in message boards, skin submissions, and visitors, then clearly it's pretty undeniable that they've harmed it. Behavior does have consequences. If anyone else has a theory as to why Customize.org has lost so much of its popularity with skin authors and users, feel free to bring it up. But it seems pretty obvious to me that seeing the site being run by a bunch of rude juvenilles can't have helped.
But that actually isn't what saddens me because at the end of the day there are some absolute measurements of such things: Website success.
Customize.org makes a good textbook case of how important admins are to the success of a site. It's a site that had a good domain, has been around a long time and has lots of sites that link to it. In short, it has every advantage. Yet look at the activity. It's last in # of skin submissions (it's mostly screenshots now and some wallpapers) and the message boards are relatively inactive too.
Now, why is this? Well, in my opinion it's because they have alienated those who are crucial to the success of such a site - skin authors and developers. Last year they completely alienated many of the top skin authors with their terrible treatment of Treetog, Alexandrie and others. And what software developer is going to be anxious to support a site where the admins themselves are just as likely to rip on the software as say something nice?
Now, if their goal is to demonstrate how to destroy a website, then yes, they're very successful. But if their goal is to create a website in which there is a lots of activity in message boards, skin submissions, and visitors, then clearly it's pretty undeniable that they've harmed it. Behavior does have consequences. If anyone else has a theory as to why Customize.org has lost so much of its popularity with skin authors and users, feel free to bring it up. But it seems pretty obvious to me that seeing the site being run by a bunch of rude juvenilles can't have helped.
Doreen
Reply #23 Thursday, April 25, 2002 11:36 AM
Reply #23 Thursday, April 25, 2002 11:36 AM
that's also true Brad, but in the end who knows, the net is very vast right? Porn sites have their own crowd too...
I don't talk on custo cuz I don't feel comfortable myself in that crowd to chat but I do read from time to time over there and what I read I don't pass judgement on, I just read and carry on, I have no right to say what is right or wrong for other ppl to type on their screens.
I think if a site is that bad, take it off your Fav's or Bookmark and just don't go there.
I don't talk on custo cuz I don't feel comfortable myself in that crowd to chat but I do read from time to time over there and what I read I don't pass judgement on, I just read and carry on, I have no right to say what is right or wrong for other ppl to type on their screens.
I think if a site is that bad, take it off your Fav's or Bookmark and just don't go there.
craeonics
Reply #24 Thursday, April 25, 2002 11:37 AM
Reply #24 Thursday, April 25, 2002 11:37 AM
craeonics is still evil_crae (that's what happens when you have to let php interface with Access)
Potential other reasons:
1. too much other skin sites
2. bad reputation (whether they deserve it or not)
Potential other reasons:
1. too much other skin sites
2. bad reputation (whether they deserve it or not)
craeonics
Reply #26 Thursday, April 25, 2002 11:44 AM
Reply #26 Thursday, April 25, 2002 11:44 AM
Compare it to skinz in its current incarnation. Or is that because Shog is the antichrist?
Doreen
Reply #27 Thursday, April 25, 2002 11:55 AM
Reply #27 Thursday, April 25, 2002 11:55 AM
crae hehe
my guess regarding skinz.org's incarnation is the prob could a combo of:
1. too many skin sites
2. too many pop ups
3. sterile site design
my guess regarding skinz.org's incarnation is the prob could a combo of:
1. too many skin sites
2. too many pop ups
3. sterile site design
Frogboy
Reply #28 Thursday, April 25, 2002 12:36 PM
#1 reason is the admins.
Feel free to disagree but since I make a living on this sort of thing, I hope my opinion counts for something.
Why? Because a skin site's success ultimately boils down to a few key things:
1) Getting skin authors to upload their materials to your site
2) Getting software developers to link and point to your site
3) Creating a friendly environment so that all other things being equal, people will want to return to your site instead of another's.
Site traffic is not divided equally. The traffic difference between say deviantART and Customize is massive. And so is the activity level.
As for skinz, yea, it's in the same boat as customize. You want to see a good example of a success story because of a good admin is LotsOfSkins. Chaz's good attitude and good treatement of his users and skinners has made his site successful. LotsOfSKins gets more skin submission and more activity than Customize or Skinz.org. And Chaz doesn't have the advantage of a long running domain name or corporate backing. So there's quite a bit of proof right there.
Reply #28 Thursday, April 25, 2002 12:36 PM
#1 reason is the admins.
Feel free to disagree but since I make a living on this sort of thing, I hope my opinion counts for something.
Why? Because a skin site's success ultimately boils down to a few key things:
1) Getting skin authors to upload their materials to your site
2) Getting software developers to link and point to your site
3) Creating a friendly environment so that all other things being equal, people will want to return to your site instead of another's.
Site traffic is not divided equally. The traffic difference between say deviantART and Customize is massive. And so is the activity level.
As for skinz, yea, it's in the same boat as customize. You want to see a good example of a success story because of a good admin is LotsOfSkins. Chaz's good attitude and good treatement of his users and skinners has made his site successful. LotsOfSKins gets more skin submission and more activity than Customize or Skinz.org. And Chaz doesn't have the advantage of a long running domain name or corporate backing. So there's quite a bit of proof right there.
migellito
Reply #29 Thursday, April 25, 2002 12:45 PM
Reply #29 Thursday, April 25, 2002 12:45 PM
interesting.. basically my comments are about the whole issue of moral relativism. for example, when you say "that's also true Brad, but in the end who knows, the net is very vast right? Porn sites have their own crowd too..." are you saying the fact that some people like it makes it okay? i can see you might also mean merely that regardless of the behavior or tone, some will like it. that's quite true, though most people will tend to avoid impolite behavior unless they feel they are part of the group dishing out the behaviour.
also, why do you feel you have no right to say whether something typed by someone is right or wrong? if someone was to, for example, tell someone to go kill themselves, wouldn't you feel you had the right to judge that as an inappropriate statement? are you saying you don't have the right to tell that person what they said is wrong?
hi dor, btw..
also, why do you feel you have no right to say whether something typed by someone is right or wrong? if someone was to, for example, tell someone to go kill themselves, wouldn't you feel you had the right to judge that as an inappropriate statement? are you saying you don't have the right to tell that person what they said is wrong?
hi dor, btw..
Doreen
Reply #30 Thursday, April 25, 2002 1:36 PM
Reply #30 Thursday, April 25, 2002 1:36 PM
Hi mig
and no I said that cuz Brad said "If their goal is to destroy the site"
cuz custo may not get destroyed in the end, it just will always have a certain crowd of ppl such as the porn sites "remain up and have a certain amount of popularity and long standing" no matter what
(though custo and porn have no connection to me in my example I only use that example cuz Brad said it was "The Slum of the community" but I don't think it is at all)
I think custo is fine and has it's own idenity (Jafo help my spellin sucks how you spell idenity that word don't look right?) hehe
and well I guess I would have a right mig if someone said they would kill themselves on the net I would jump in (I have actually on DA) but I meant that I don't like to judge ppl when I know I'm not perfect
always ppl passing judgement on each other and then turning around and doing their own stuff that is "inappropriate" (got that word right from crae up there Jafo if it's wrong blame him!) hehe
just that calling another site a "slum" in itself could sound inappropriate (jussss my opinion)
you can call it whatever you want! hehe
that site still has it's own right whether we like it or not right? ppl have said bad stuff about this site too and it does not change a thing in the end
different strokes for different folks...
and no I said that cuz Brad said "If their goal is to destroy the site"
cuz custo may not get destroyed in the end, it just will always have a certain crowd of ppl such as the porn sites "remain up and have a certain amount of popularity and long standing" no matter what
(though custo and porn have no connection to me in my example I only use that example cuz Brad said it was "The Slum of the community" but I don't think it is at all)
I think custo is fine and has it's own idenity (Jafo help my spellin sucks how you spell idenity that word don't look right?) hehe
and well I guess I would have a right mig if someone said they would kill themselves on the net I would jump in (I have actually on DA) but I meant that I don't like to judge ppl when I know I'm not perfect
always ppl passing judgement on each other and then turning around and doing their own stuff that is "inappropriate" (got that word right from crae up there Jafo if it's wrong blame him!) hehe
just that calling another site a "slum" in itself could sound inappropriate (jussss my opinion)
you can call it whatever you want! hehe
that site still has it's own right whether we like it or not right? ppl have said bad stuff about this site too and it does not change a thing in the end
different strokes for different folks...
JayG
Reply #32 Thursday, April 25, 2002 3:09 PM
Reply #32 Thursday, April 25, 2002 3:09 PM
moral relativism is one of the reasons why our society has become so uncivilized. in a world where no behavior is 'wrong' then there is no right. it's the easy way out.
Frogboy
Reply #33 Thursday, April 25, 2002 3:39 PM
Reply #33 Thursday, April 25, 2002 3:39 PM
Doreen, I just don't see a politically correct way around it.
Customize.org's activity is basically nill. It's a screenshot submission site. If Glenn were around I wonder what he'd think of it. There is no way to around the fact that by every measure of a site's success it is no longer doing well and the reason for that is almost certainly the admins for the reasons I previously stated.
You say it's "doing okay". By what measurement is it doing "okay"? I know that many people like to turn everything into a touchy feely thing but for some things there are objective facts.
Fact 1: Customize's relative traffic has diminished to almost nothing. Its download numbers are low: Few users are going there to get their stuff these days.
Fact 2: They get very few skins submitted in a typical week. Lower than pretty much any site.
Fact 3: Their message boards often go days without a new message.
Fact 4: Very few comments on skins.
Fact 5: Rarely have any unique news items on the page.
By any reasonable judgement, Custo's not doing well. So in what way is it "fine"? It would be a lot cheaper and effective for the admins to just go on some IRC channel to flame people and stuff rather than have an exensive legacy file repository to flame things.
It is not, in my opinion, constructive to raise the qualifiers on failure so high as to be meaningless. It promotes behavior that is not constructive or good for society. Whether you or I like it or not, society DOES work on a consensus of what is right and wrong and Custo's admins behavior has been so atrocious for so long that they've ruined the site. And by ruined I mean in terms of human beings actually wanting to go there and be part of it in some way.
Self-destructive behavior has its consequences and I don't see it being a "good"(TM) thing to just ignore and or pretend that bad behavior is purely a matter of perspective.
Customize.org's activity is basically nill. It's a screenshot submission site. If Glenn were around I wonder what he'd think of it. There is no way to around the fact that by every measure of a site's success it is no longer doing well and the reason for that is almost certainly the admins for the reasons I previously stated.
You say it's "doing okay". By what measurement is it doing "okay"? I know that many people like to turn everything into a touchy feely thing but for some things there are objective facts.
Fact 1: Customize's relative traffic has diminished to almost nothing. Its download numbers are low: Few users are going there to get their stuff these days.
Fact 2: They get very few skins submitted in a typical week. Lower than pretty much any site.
Fact 3: Their message boards often go days without a new message.
Fact 4: Very few comments on skins.
Fact 5: Rarely have any unique news items on the page.
By any reasonable judgement, Custo's not doing well. So in what way is it "fine"? It would be a lot cheaper and effective for the admins to just go on some IRC channel to flame people and stuff rather than have an exensive legacy file repository to flame things.
It is not, in my opinion, constructive to raise the qualifiers on failure so high as to be meaningless. It promotes behavior that is not constructive or good for society. Whether you or I like it or not, society DOES work on a consensus of what is right and wrong and Custo's admins behavior has been so atrocious for so long that they've ruined the site. And by ruined I mean in terms of human beings actually wanting to go there and be part of it in some way.
Self-destructive behavior has its consequences and I don't see it being a "good"(TM) thing to just ignore and or pretend that bad behavior is purely a matter of perspective.
Doreen
Reply #34 Thursday, April 25, 2002 4:15 PM
Reply #34 Thursday, April 25, 2002 4:15 PM
hmmm well I dunno what their goals are really...
to me when I say "fine" I mean by the fact that they are actually "there" in existence on the net live??? hehe
and when it's not good it's down dead?
maybe their goal is to have 10 ppl hang out there and use the site as irc or icq who knows? obviously they cannot handle it doing too good cuz they always have a commercial screen image when too many ppl hit the site and traffic is high right?
not everyones goals are the same, (you have high goals Brad) I think they just want a site up and to have some fun and chit chat and stuff like that...
JayG there definetly is right and wrong behavior I agree w/ you, but ppl just won't get very far trying to shove their personal morals and thinking on other ppl on the "Net" and again like crae said way up there:
"Wrong" and "inappropriate" are subjective and depend on your context. To them it may be okay, to you it may not.
If right & wrong were defined the "same way" for everyone on this earth it would be easy and we'd be at peace and probably very bored not sure.... hehe
to me when I say "fine" I mean by the fact that they are actually "there" in existence on the net live??? hehe
and when it's not good it's down dead?
maybe their goal is to have 10 ppl hang out there and use the site as irc or icq who knows? obviously they cannot handle it doing too good cuz they always have a commercial screen image when too many ppl hit the site and traffic is high right?
not everyones goals are the same, (you have high goals Brad) I think they just want a site up and to have some fun and chit chat and stuff like that...
JayG there definetly is right and wrong behavior I agree w/ you, but ppl just won't get very far trying to shove their personal morals and thinking on other ppl on the "Net" and again like crae said way up there:
"Wrong" and "inappropriate" are subjective and depend on your context. To them it may be okay, to you it may not.
If right & wrong were defined the "same way" for everyone on this earth it would be easy and we'd be at peace and probably very bored not sure.... hehe
grayhaze
Reply #36 Thursday, April 25, 2002 7:25 PM
Reply #36 Thursday, April 25, 2002 7:25 PM
http://www.customize.org/forum/1750
Custo lost my respect long ago when the admins started attacking my work for no real reason. They have certainly failed as a skinning site, and the attitude of the admins is apalling. I'd actually be ashamed to be known for running such a poorly mangaged and badly constructed site anyway. It's a shame really, as for a while there it was one of the few sites I visited daily. Now I only drop by every so often to glance at the wreckage as I pass by.
Custo lost my respect long ago when the admins started attacking my work for no real reason. They have certainly failed as a skinning site, and the attitude of the admins is apalling. I'd actually be ashamed to be known for running such a poorly mangaged and badly constructed site anyway. It's a shame really, as for a while there it was one of the few sites I visited daily. Now I only drop by every so often to glance at the wreckage as I pass by.
Doreen
Reply #37 Thursday, April 25, 2002 8:52 PM
Reply #37 Thursday, April 25, 2002 8:52 PM
Hey I was close Jafo! hehe
Brandy - Full moon
mmmm
(checking out Juni's new skin for my wmp for ppc) oh yeah this is nice
Nice work Juni!!!
Brandy - Full moon
mmmm
(checking out Juni's new skin for my wmp for ppc) oh yeah this is nice
Nice work Juni!!!
Frogboy
Reply #38 Thursday, April 25, 2002 9:31 PM
Reply #38 Thursday, April 25, 2002 9:31 PM
I feel the same as Grayhaze. It's like, why do they go out of their way to be nasty?
jark
Reply #39 Thursday, April 25, 2002 9:47 PM
Reply #39 Thursday, April 25, 2002 9:47 PM
they probably go out of their way to be nasty so that they at least have some form of a reputation intact, regardless of whether it be a good or bad one.
DavidK
Reply #40 Thursday, April 25, 2002 10:17 PM
Reply #40 Thursday, April 25, 2002 10:17 PM
I'm not sure I can articulate my feelings here but I'll give it a try...
Skinning and customizing how your computer looks and works is something that guarantees at some point you're going to crash. Even without skinning involved, just using a lot of beta software will do the same thing. It's not uncommon to encounter some incompatibility that you need to either work around or find a fix for. I've never had any respect for people that bash software because they couldn't get it to work right. Usually it's more a case of them being deficient than the program, or a bit of both. One of the things I really liked about the "skinning community" years ago was that these were people that could tweak their way out of almost any problem, work with the developers to improve the programs and push the 'art' of skinning forward at the same time. Nobody was afraid of software ruining their system because they were pursuing something that was new and required some effort to do (and obviously they were a lot more skilled at configuring their machines) . As far as the stability of skinning programs, Windowblinds has improved so much over the last three years I've been using it I'm dazzled. In fact I haven't had any problems at all with it for about two years. There are several skinnable apps I don't use because I don't have the time anymore to make them work for me. But it would never occur to me to bash a program publicly because I haven't invested the effort to make it work on my system. If I run across a poorly written app that I don't like for any reason, I just don't use it, don't make skins for it but I also don't bash the developers that wrote it.
I haven't seen any skinners bashing Stardock's programs with one exception. The guy from TGSoft's website bashed Windowblinds mercilessly (and falsely) while disguising himself with phony identities. When exposed publicly as a spamming troll, others kept up the rhetoric for them because Stylexp was "free" which made it better. When TGSoft then announced they were charging the same amount as WB it became better because it was "faster". Fact is, it isn't even a program, and it doesn't "do" anything unless you have XP and want a new border on the windows. Then it lets you stick an unauthorized window border where the authorized one goes. So what, I could do that without Stylexp. And I don't like supporting Microsoft's "one copy/one machine" activation code crap. I have no respect for anyone that tries to tell the hungry (for skins) hordes of new people discovering skinning that the way to go is BUY XP and BUY a bullshit reghack for $20.
Finally, an admin of a skinning website going to another site to bash a developer's program (come on, lets face it, WB is currently THE windows skinning software) in a news article about a new release is such a farce, such a bottom feeder classless act that it deserves to be highlighted publicly. rkenshin and miriku are desperate for followers, desperate for attention (and traffic to their site) so being assholes is the best they can come up with to get what they want. The solution is simple, ignore them, don't post a response when they're doing a stupid dance for coins. And then maybe they'll try something different when the only people around are the ones that jumped onto their ship of fools. Because those people, being so weak-willed and gullible, won't have custo's admins' respect either. But they'll be the only friends they have....
Skinning and customizing how your computer looks and works is something that guarantees at some point you're going to crash. Even without skinning involved, just using a lot of beta software will do the same thing. It's not uncommon to encounter some incompatibility that you need to either work around or find a fix for. I've never had any respect for people that bash software because they couldn't get it to work right. Usually it's more a case of them being deficient than the program, or a bit of both. One of the things I really liked about the "skinning community" years ago was that these were people that could tweak their way out of almost any problem, work with the developers to improve the programs and push the 'art' of skinning forward at the same time. Nobody was afraid of software ruining their system because they were pursuing something that was new and required some effort to do (and obviously they were a lot more skilled at configuring their machines) . As far as the stability of skinning programs, Windowblinds has improved so much over the last three years I've been using it I'm dazzled. In fact I haven't had any problems at all with it for about two years. There are several skinnable apps I don't use because I don't have the time anymore to make them work for me. But it would never occur to me to bash a program publicly because I haven't invested the effort to make it work on my system. If I run across a poorly written app that I don't like for any reason, I just don't use it, don't make skins for it but I also don't bash the developers that wrote it.
I haven't seen any skinners bashing Stardock's programs with one exception. The guy from TGSoft's website bashed Windowblinds mercilessly (and falsely) while disguising himself with phony identities. When exposed publicly as a spamming troll, others kept up the rhetoric for them because Stylexp was "free" which made it better. When TGSoft then announced they were charging the same amount as WB it became better because it was "faster". Fact is, it isn't even a program, and it doesn't "do" anything unless you have XP and want a new border on the windows. Then it lets you stick an unauthorized window border where the authorized one goes. So what, I could do that without Stylexp. And I don't like supporting Microsoft's "one copy/one machine" activation code crap. I have no respect for anyone that tries to tell the hungry (for skins) hordes of new people discovering skinning that the way to go is BUY XP and BUY a bullshit reghack for $20.
Finally, an admin of a skinning website going to another site to bash a developer's program (come on, lets face it, WB is currently THE windows skinning software) in a news article about a new release is such a farce, such a bottom feeder classless act that it deserves to be highlighted publicly. rkenshin and miriku are desperate for followers, desperate for attention (and traffic to their site) so being assholes is the best they can come up with to get what they want. The solution is simple, ignore them, don't post a response when they're doing a stupid dance for coins. And then maybe they'll try something different when the only people around are the ones that jumped onto their ship of fools. Because those people, being so weak-willed and gullible, won't have custo's admins' respect either. But they'll be the only friends they have....
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Reply #21 Thursday, April 25, 2002 11:27 AM