We need to give people more accolades
Saturday, July 14, 2001 by Frogboy | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
One of our top priorities when we created the site was to have a way of really giving users who are contributing to the site some accoldates.
That's why we track the top skin authors per category and top skins and such. But we shouldn't stop there I think.
One of the things we've been throwing around is the idea of having a points system for users. So that people who are contributing to the site in other ways can get more recognition.
Basically the idea works something like this:
When you make a post, you get 1 point for every 10 responses it gets.
When you submit news that gets accepted, you get a point.
For every 10 responses you make you get a point.
For every 5 responses on news items you get a point.
For every 100 downloads your skin gets you get a point.
For every article we publish of yours you get 1 point.
For every 100 people who view your article you get a point.
For every 5 comments you make on a skin you get a point.
Now, to keep people from writing "junk" responses, they would lose a point for every response/comment of theirs we had to delete (so if the person responded "Yea!" as their post, we could delete it and the user would lose 1 point -- we would just discretion, only if it was apparent the person was making the weak response for points would we do that).
This sort of point system would then let us have a hall of fame for top contributors to the site.
That's why we track the top skin authors per category and top skins and such. But we shouldn't stop there I think.
One of the things we've been throwing around is the idea of having a points system for users. So that people who are contributing to the site in other ways can get more recognition.
Basically the idea works something like this:
When you make a post, you get 1 point for every 10 responses it gets.
When you submit news that gets accepted, you get a point.
For every 10 responses you make you get a point.
For every 5 responses on news items you get a point.
For every 100 downloads your skin gets you get a point.
For every article we publish of yours you get 1 point.
For every 100 people who view your article you get a point.
For every 5 comments you make on a skin you get a point.
Now, to keep people from writing "junk" responses, they would lose a point for every response/comment of theirs we had to delete (so if the person responded "Yea!" as their post, we could delete it and the user would lose 1 point -- we would just discretion, only if it was apparent the person was making the weak response for points would we do that).
This sort of point system would then let us have a hall of fame for top contributors to the site.
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ess-vid
Reply #2 Saturday, July 14, 2001 3:27 PM
Reply #2 Saturday, July 14, 2001 3:27 PM
No, absolutely not.
First of all, it doesn't fit the climate of this forum. Think about how many posts here are little more than "hehehe!", how many posts/threads just say "message me on IM client!", or things that are by and large pointless (in regards to "the community" as a whole).
Secondly, it breeds point mongers. Do you visit the Ars OpenForum? There was a guy there, going by the name of "Lord Baldrick", that, while avoiding "me too" posts, flooded the place will noise... duplicate topics, rehashes, all sorts of stuff that took no effort, then made post after post of "why are you picking on me" when called on it. His post count skyrocketed, he had several thousand in like a month's time. THEN he used that post count as a status symbol, responding with stuff like "well someone who makes so few posts can't possibly have something worthwhile to contribute".
This is an indirect system, as well... the post count is an irrelevant listing next to your name. It's much the same way downloads were used as status at skinz: "I HAV MOR DLZ THAN U I IZ BETUR!!!". Imagine what a direct system would do. They'd come out of the woodwork, and your admins would get swamped policing it all.
Third, how do you rank more nebulous contributors, like myself? Do I get points for every skin or icon set I put on CleffieNET? Points for writing skinning or graphics related articles and tutorials? Points for my history of contributions in the past, things said and done back in the custo days and skinz days? How do you rate these things? It becomes harder on group sites such as Virtual Plastic, because then you have to go through and figure out who's responsible for what.
Brad, stuff like this is nothing but wasted effort. Groups develop their own heirarchy naturally, attempting to force one into the group is simply problematic, there's absolutely no benefit to it. I'd feel much more comfortable having improvements and additions to the site itself, than stuff like this.
First of all, it doesn't fit the climate of this forum. Think about how many posts here are little more than "hehehe!", how many posts/threads just say "message me on IM client!", or things that are by and large pointless (in regards to "the community" as a whole).
Secondly, it breeds point mongers. Do you visit the Ars OpenForum? There was a guy there, going by the name of "Lord Baldrick", that, while avoiding "me too" posts, flooded the place will noise... duplicate topics, rehashes, all sorts of stuff that took no effort, then made post after post of "why are you picking on me" when called on it. His post count skyrocketed, he had several thousand in like a month's time. THEN he used that post count as a status symbol, responding with stuff like "well someone who makes so few posts can't possibly have something worthwhile to contribute".
This is an indirect system, as well... the post count is an irrelevant listing next to your name. It's much the same way downloads were used as status at skinz: "I HAV MOR DLZ THAN U I IZ BETUR!!!". Imagine what a direct system would do. They'd come out of the woodwork, and your admins would get swamped policing it all.
Third, how do you rank more nebulous contributors, like myself? Do I get points for every skin or icon set I put on CleffieNET? Points for writing skinning or graphics related articles and tutorials? Points for my history of contributions in the past, things said and done back in the custo days and skinz days? How do you rate these things? It becomes harder on group sites such as Virtual Plastic, because then you have to go through and figure out who's responsible for what.
Brad, stuff like this is nothing but wasted effort. Groups develop their own heirarchy naturally, attempting to force one into the group is simply problematic, there's absolutely no benefit to it. I'd feel much more comfortable having improvements and additions to the site itself, than stuff like this.
thecat2000
Reply #3 Saturday, July 14, 2001 3:58 PM
Reply #3 Saturday, July 14, 2001 3:58 PM
hmm, I would RATHER see points given to people who can actually string a CONSTRUCTIVE comment together, based on the Authors work, and not on the rights and wronmgs of what they believe the Author can or can't do. What I mean by this is waisted comments which are made which are really made by people just looking to stir trouble. I see from past record that such people cause fierce debates, based on things which are actually very mundane, and were not really a big deal so to speak.
Some people just post dumb replaies like "This skin is crap' Or this skins stinks etc. The system of removing these pointless comments should be based on whether their contribution was a constructive and worth while one. Not one which was clearly intended to cause problems and trouble. You could with this system decide which comments are really worth being awarded, it will also reflect on the maturity and knowledge of that person replying.I see good and bad sides to this I think.
Some people just post dumb replaies like "This skin is crap' Or this skins stinks etc. The system of removing these pointless comments should be based on whether their contribution was a constructive and worth while one. Not one which was clearly intended to cause problems and trouble. You could with this system decide which comments are really worth being awarded, it will also reflect on the maturity and knowledge of that person replying.I see good and bad sides to this I think.
Phar0e
Reply #5 Saturday, July 14, 2001 7:22 PM
Reply #5 Saturday, July 14, 2001 7:22 PM
It looks like one objective of Frogboy's suggestion is to encorage more feedback on peoples work.
One thing we are not seeing enough of is comments on uploaded skins. I agree it's best to comment on apps that you also skin for (ie: litestep, windowblinds). While recongnised authors do get some feedback, many many skins sit with no comments.
Another example of this is the screenshots area. That is a section that should have tons of uploads. Many each day. But it doesn't and I'm sure one major reason is the lack of comments or feedback. I mean, that is the point of screenshots (largly anyway).
So to complete this ramble, if a points system that includes comments isn't the way the to help matters, how about some suggestions that do!
As for me, I think a points system could work. I suppose under any system there will be abuses. If there are, maybe just ignoring the abuser will be enough punishment in itself.
One thing we are not seeing enough of is comments on uploaded skins. I agree it's best to comment on apps that you also skin for (ie: litestep, windowblinds). While recongnised authors do get some feedback, many many skins sit with no comments.
Another example of this is the screenshots area. That is a section that should have tons of uploads. Many each day. But it doesn't and I'm sure one major reason is the lack of comments or feedback. I mean, that is the point of screenshots (largly anyway).
So to complete this ramble, if a points system that includes comments isn't the way the to help matters, how about some suggestions that do!
As for me, I think a points system could work. I suppose under any system there will be abuses. If there are, maybe just ignoring the abuser will be enough punishment in itself.
BoXXi
Reply #6 Saturday, July 14, 2001 7:25 PM
Reply #6 Saturday, July 14, 2001 7:25 PM
I too, agree with ess-vid. Further accolades are irrelevant. I like to think I contribute to this community, yet I don't skin anything, and usually I only post on the board when I have a problem, or if I can advise someone else with their problem.
I don't want points, I want people to download my work. If people are downloading my work, then I am getting it right, and that is the only accolade I need, besides maybe a few appreciative comments. If you want to improve the site, make it so that our stats come up on the opening page like they did at Skinz, now that was cool! The "My Skins" section is becoming very tedious for me with my slow 56k connection, especially as everytime I upload a new image, the load time to see my stats increases yet again.
I really don't want to sound like I'm complaining, because I will come and up my walls no matter what you do to the site, I just want you to know what it's like for us poor people who don't have superfast connections. (Violins begin to play in the background)
BoXXi goes to tweak his modem settings again.
I don't want points, I want people to download my work. If people are downloading my work, then I am getting it right, and that is the only accolade I need, besides maybe a few appreciative comments. If you want to improve the site, make it so that our stats come up on the opening page like they did at Skinz, now that was cool! The "My Skins" section is becoming very tedious for me with my slow 56k connection, especially as everytime I upload a new image, the load time to see my stats increases yet again.
I really don't want to sound like I'm complaining, because I will come and up my walls no matter what you do to the site, I just want you to know what it's like for us poor people who don't have superfast connections. (Violins begin to play in the background)
BoXXi goes to tweak his modem settings again.
Doreen
Reply #7 Saturday, July 14, 2001 7:32 PM
Reply #7 Saturday, July 14, 2001 7:32 PM
Unless earning points actually gets you into a brand new car I don't see anyone getting over zealous over having that option here or anywhere else, it's just for fun right?...
Jafo
Reply #8 Saturday, July 14, 2001 8:11 PM
Reply #8 Saturday, July 14, 2001 8:11 PM
Maybe a little more inter-reactivity in the site would promote more diverse use and comment. I find one of the biggest problems is the lack of Authors' names and time-stamos and who made the last comment and have I had any new comments? sort of things....
Whether on this site, or any other.
Deviant has a lot of better inter-reactivity which can promote more comments than the comparative stoic architecture here.
It is one thing to keep the intellectually-challenged such as Psycho3k from posting inane comments, it is entirely another to stifle many others, just for the sake of being neat and tidy.
The only way you will get more/intelligent comment is by fostering a better community feel that will make people want to join in with.
So many comments that I have seen are by PPL I know...[yeah OK, I been around a while]....but just imagine if all the past members of skinz.org were to suddenly vanish....who, or what would be left?
The only [almost] other faces that turn up are the likes of 'hey, what's the reg code for WB?' types.
Sometimes you have to work hard at balancing the right degree of social screwing around with the real task of providing skins for the masses at large.
Financial stability is one thing, but the sites that survive must be friendly to their contributors.
Any deletion of comments or posts should ONLY be for reasons of abuse or personal attack, not for an arbitrary determination of their 'worth'.
Damn.....
I'd never be able to say 'Listen to Fathom' again...
Just my 2c with GST....
Whether on this site, or any other.
Deviant has a lot of better inter-reactivity which can promote more comments than the comparative stoic architecture here.
It is one thing to keep the intellectually-challenged such as Psycho3k from posting inane comments, it is entirely another to stifle many others, just for the sake of being neat and tidy.
The only way you will get more/intelligent comment is by fostering a better community feel that will make people want to join in with.
So many comments that I have seen are by PPL I know...[yeah OK, I been around a while]....but just imagine if all the past members of skinz.org were to suddenly vanish....who, or what would be left?
The only [almost] other faces that turn up are the likes of 'hey, what's the reg code for WB?' types.
Sometimes you have to work hard at balancing the right degree of social screwing around with the real task of providing skins for the masses at large.
Financial stability is one thing, but the sites that survive must be friendly to their contributors.
Any deletion of comments or posts should ONLY be for reasons of abuse or personal attack, not for an arbitrary determination of their 'worth'.
Damn.....
I'd never be able to say 'Listen to Fathom' again...
Just my 2c with GST....
jark
Reply #10 Saturday, July 14, 2001 8:19 PM
Reply #10 Saturday, July 14, 2001 8:19 PM
jark licks jafo
...another useless post that would have garnered me some points under the proposed system. and we all know how i love to lick people! muwahaha.
realistically, though, i know where you are coming from brad. i've struggled with that very idea for quite some time now and have held off on implementing it for that sole purpose: point wh0res.
...another useless post that would have garnered me some points under the proposed system. and we all know how i love to lick people! muwahaha.
realistically, though, i know where you are coming from brad. i've struggled with that very idea for quite some time now and have held off on implementing it for that sole purpose: point wh0res.
Doreen
Reply #13 Saturday, July 14, 2001 9:32 PM
Reply #13 Saturday, July 14, 2001 9:32 PM
Jafo "that was a useless post" just to earn points!
Doreen deletes a point from Jafo!
Doreen deletes a point from Jafo!
Frogboy
Reply #14 Saturday, July 14, 2001 9:33 PM
Reply #14 Saturday, July 14, 2001 9:33 PM
The reason why ess-vid's scenario wouldn't happen here is because we have moderators who would delete such wasteful stuff and that would result in a point loss for them.
On the BBS we used to run, we had such a system and it worked very very well. It didn't spur traffic as much as let us know who were the real contributors to the BBS.
There are other uses for the point system as well, for instance, the bandwidth crunch some people may have forgotten about hasn't gone away. By the end of the year at the latest, this site is going to have to either:
a] Find ways to pay for the increased bandwidth
or
b] Find ways to decrease the bandwidth useage
Or some combination of the two. One system being discussed is to track kilobytes downloaded (bandwidth used). There are users who have downloaded many megabytes (over 200 megabytes) in a single week who have never commented on a skin, posted, or done anything. Hence, a system coudl be developed to discourage people who are just visitng sites and massively downloading.
Example of this would be some guy who lives in the USA, has downloaded 400 megabytes of stuff. This is someone who should buy the CD really at least. But let's say they can't afford it? Then there are other ways they could contribute by commenting on skins and such.
Heck, comments themselves could have an Amazon.com like system where users could click on the comment and say whether the comment helped them or not (thus only helpful comments would be counted as points).
A lot of people don't realize what's been happening these last few months -- the reason this site even exists is because the other sites couldn't afford to stay up.
We think a system that recognizes whose contributing to the site's well being would be beneficial to all. Eventually something is going to have to be done about the people who download 200+ megabytes of stuff without so much even registering a program or buying the CD. They will either need to contribute in some other way or go elsewhere (i.e. help pay for the bandwidth/contribute to the site's community or stop using so much bandwidth).
But if the main objection is a worry that such a system would create a bunch of pointless posts, that wouldn't happen. The moderators read through the site constantly and we can pick out "crap" pretty easily (though deleting a comment currently is a pain but that would obviously need changing).
Articles, news submissions, constructive comments on skins, skin making, discussions on the message boards, that's the sort of activities that help build a community and make it enjoyable for everyone.
On the BBS we used to run, we had such a system and it worked very very well. It didn't spur traffic as much as let us know who were the real contributors to the BBS.
There are other uses for the point system as well, for instance, the bandwidth crunch some people may have forgotten about hasn't gone away. By the end of the year at the latest, this site is going to have to either:
a] Find ways to pay for the increased bandwidth
or
b] Find ways to decrease the bandwidth useage
Or some combination of the two. One system being discussed is to track kilobytes downloaded (bandwidth used). There are users who have downloaded many megabytes (over 200 megabytes) in a single week who have never commented on a skin, posted, or done anything. Hence, a system coudl be developed to discourage people who are just visitng sites and massively downloading.
Example of this would be some guy who lives in the USA, has downloaded 400 megabytes of stuff. This is someone who should buy the CD really at least. But let's say they can't afford it? Then there are other ways they could contribute by commenting on skins and such.
Heck, comments themselves could have an Amazon.com like system where users could click on the comment and say whether the comment helped them or not (thus only helpful comments would be counted as points).
A lot of people don't realize what's been happening these last few months -- the reason this site even exists is because the other sites couldn't afford to stay up.
We think a system that recognizes whose contributing to the site's well being would be beneficial to all. Eventually something is going to have to be done about the people who download 200+ megabytes of stuff without so much even registering a program or buying the CD. They will either need to contribute in some other way or go elsewhere (i.e. help pay for the bandwidth/contribute to the site's community or stop using so much bandwidth).
But if the main objection is a worry that such a system would create a bunch of pointless posts, that wouldn't happen. The moderators read through the site constantly and we can pick out "crap" pretty easily (though deleting a comment currently is a pain but that would obviously need changing).
Articles, news submissions, constructive comments on skins, skin making, discussions on the message boards, that's the sort of activities that help build a community and make it enjoyable for everyone.
Frogboy
Reply #15 Saturday, July 14, 2001 9:37 PM
Reply #15 Saturday, July 14, 2001 9:37 PM
I agree with Jafo on his points. In fact, DeviantArt has really the idealized interactive system. I think Jark could probably get a business going as a consultant selling community driven technologies or something (Well it would have made a great VC funded .com idea anyway).
Down the line though it would be nice to be notified of comments made to your skins recently or comments made to skins you've posted to and other heads up features of that kind.
But that would take IT resources which aren't going to be available any time soon. Not this year anyway unless T-shirts and CDs and other goodies start doing really well (or we get ASP experts to volunteer some time ).
Down the line though it would be nice to be notified of comments made to your skins recently or comments made to skins you've posted to and other heads up features of that kind.
But that would take IT resources which aren't going to be available any time soon. Not this year anyway unless T-shirts and CDs and other goodies start doing really well (or we get ASP experts to volunteer some time ).
CygnusXII
Reply #16 Saturday, July 14, 2001 9:44 PM
Reply #16 Saturday, July 14, 2001 9:44 PM
Aw, Jeeze Louis!
I am keeping my mouth shut on this one, for sure.
I am keeping my mouth shut on this one, for sure.
Frogboy
Reply #17 Saturday, July 14, 2001 9:51 PM
Reply #17 Saturday, July 14, 2001 9:51 PM
You're right that you woudln't want comments deleted arbitrarily.
Hmmm. I'm starting to come around to seeing how difficult it would be to stop a "point monger". Indeed, I think that 99% of users would play by the rules but it only takes 3 or 4 people to ruin it.
Look at skin submissions that get resubmitted and that's just for download count and submitting a skin is much more time consuming than writing a response.
We would really like to have a system in which we can objectively (that being the key word) measure how people are contributing to the site.
It would allow us to give recognition to those who are contributing and allow us to have a way of implementing a system to discourage, for lack of a better term, leeching.
Consider this: Last month over 130,000 unique people visited the site. The site transferred over 3 terrabytes of skins, icons, and themes. 3 TERRABYTES. But all the stuff that makes the site worthwhile was done by probably fewer than 100 people. The people making the skins, icons, themes, submitting news, writing interesting posts, making constructive comments, writing responses to posts and news articles.
If we ever had to go to a system in which we had to have some sort of basic membership fee (or purchase a CD, shirt, registered some software or some other item) after you've downloaded X megabytes, it seems like it would be unfair for ask those who are making skins, writing posts, and generally contributing in other ways to have to also pay. We're not anywhere near such a system, but we're going to be here for the long haul so we have to look at things a year in advance. Like I said elsewhere, it's the guy who downloaded 400 megabytes of stuff and has never posted, never registered any software listed here, never contributed in any way that we're concerned about. They exist and they are legion.
Anyway, I'm just brain storming with you guys, hopefully this gelatinous post makes some sense. What do you guys think can be done or should be done?
Hmmm. I'm starting to come around to seeing how difficult it would be to stop a "point monger". Indeed, I think that 99% of users would play by the rules but it only takes 3 or 4 people to ruin it.
Look at skin submissions that get resubmitted and that's just for download count and submitting a skin is much more time consuming than writing a response.
We would really like to have a system in which we can objectively (that being the key word) measure how people are contributing to the site.
It would allow us to give recognition to those who are contributing and allow us to have a way of implementing a system to discourage, for lack of a better term, leeching.
Consider this: Last month over 130,000 unique people visited the site. The site transferred over 3 terrabytes of skins, icons, and themes. 3 TERRABYTES. But all the stuff that makes the site worthwhile was done by probably fewer than 100 people. The people making the skins, icons, themes, submitting news, writing interesting posts, making constructive comments, writing responses to posts and news articles.
If we ever had to go to a system in which we had to have some sort of basic membership fee (or purchase a CD, shirt, registered some software or some other item) after you've downloaded X megabytes, it seems like it would be unfair for ask those who are making skins, writing posts, and generally contributing in other ways to have to also pay. We're not anywhere near such a system, but we're going to be here for the long haul so we have to look at things a year in advance. Like I said elsewhere, it's the guy who downloaded 400 megabytes of stuff and has never posted, never registered any software listed here, never contributed in any way that we're concerned about. They exist and they are legion.
Anyway, I'm just brain storming with you guys, hopefully this gelatinous post makes some sense. What do you guys think can be done or should be done?
Doreen
Reply #18 Saturday, July 14, 2001 9:55 PM
Reply #18 Saturday, July 14, 2001 9:55 PM
hehe Cyg
Brad this site is good, good sites don't need "so" much thought, relax give it time, things will happen...
I thought you said it was covered when wincusto first flew up? Is it getting "that" busy?
if the site does not get established first by a community nobody will want a shirt (give it time)
if you supervise and control a community "too much" you wont have a community
(I dunno Brad just my humble opinion)
Brad this site is good, good sites don't need "so" much thought, relax give it time, things will happen...
I thought you said it was covered when wincusto first flew up? Is it getting "that" busy?
if the site does not get established first by a community nobody will want a shirt (give it time)
if you supervise and control a community "too much" you wont have a community
(I dunno Brad just my humble opinion)
Doreen
Reply #19 Saturday, July 14, 2001 10:02 PM
Reply #19 Saturday, July 14, 2001 10:02 PM
well I can see your dilemma there, you can not realistically expect someone such as Treetog to pay a mem fee when he is one of the reasons ppl are coming over here to your site...
well I dunno
well I dunno
paxx
Reply #20 Saturday, July 14, 2001 10:09 PM
Reply #20 Saturday, July 14, 2001 10:09 PM
I don't realy have an opinion on the proposed point system, believe it or not.
The only thing I disagree on this is the post deletion. That's bad. If I reply a simple "yes" or "Listen to ess-vid" or even just
, it should NOT get deleted. It may not certainly not merit a point but it doesn't merit deletion either.
So, really, I could have simply typed "Listen to Jafo", but I wouldn't want it deleted...
The only thing I disagree on this is the post deletion. That's bad. If I reply a simple "yes" or "Listen to ess-vid" or even just
, it should NOT get deleted. It may not certainly not merit a point but it doesn't merit deletion either.So, really, I could have simply typed "Listen to Jafo", but I wouldn't want it deleted...
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Reply #1 Saturday, July 14, 2001 3:05 PM