The *ideal* solution of course is more skin sites.

If Customize.org could go back up and skinz.org could somehow return, then the bandwidth would be more distributed between the sites.

Ess-vid's point is a valid one in terms of wanting the message board to stay intelligent even if it's at the expense of # of posts.

But something that encourages people to comment on skins would be nice for starters.

Hmm, noway. I don't mind contributing skins, and comments and the like, but I wouldn't pay for membership. I like the idea of a FREE Community. Not FEE. I'll continue to contribute work to this site, as long as the system is fair enough to work and play by. It IS Unfair to ask any skinner particualry to also pay a fee to be a member, so i hope things dont come to that.

I like the thing about the amazon.com idea of whereby some one can also leave a comment saying whether a comment was useful to them or not. As well as the opportunity to comment for themselves on the Skin. This way you can draw more people into 'interacting' with the site more, as they enjoy this experience they may decide to become a member. Once a member there could be membership insentives to further the experience.

i think the cat is on the right frame of mind. if you make a comment and people find it helpful for them to click on it and say so. i also don't think that skinners should ever be in a spot where they've gotta pay to get the full benefits of the site. Without skiners...what's the point of the site? But people like me who download the occasionally windowsblinds or wallpaper might be willing to do that. I'm going to buy a T-shirt.

I truly enjoy Wincustomize. Its got the most intelligent message area and the most skins for the things i want.

Upset and uptight? Who? Certainly not me. Yeah, we're brainstorming, but you can't expect all of it to be in favour of the idea (indeed, it seems a number of people are opposed to it). I dislike such systems, see no benefit in them, and therefore am stressing that.

On user count: First, you need to put "success" in context. What is your goal? If you're out to make a "major skin site like DA" (and I assume that that's at least one of your goals, given the recent discussion on this), then user and download count become major factors, whether you wish them to be or not. And no, I frankly do not care about that punk with the cracked WB copy sucking on your netpipe, either. You've forgotten, though, that we do not live in a vacuum. That sucky user could (and likely does) have a friend, or even dozens of friends, that can make great skins, have a good way of commenting, or generally are able to contribute. By pissing off that one guy, you essentially run the risk of pissing them all off. These numbers can also become effectively large.
Plus, how do you deal with the largest mass downloaders? The ones without accounts (I haven't checked lately, but I assume you don't need an account to use this site's main function)? Cookies can be turned off, and things like sessions can also be circumvented. Even these bring about the "friend with talent" thing as well.
(yes, I know a pay system eliminates these (somewhat, anyway... I seriously doubt you're going to put a "give more money" sign on things like WindowBlinds.net), but until then, they're the largest chunk of bandwidth, and with or without them, those good friends are still an issue)

On living within the grant: A pay system entails option #2 in the short term, and #3 both short and long term.

On "control": I'm not bringing up any issues to say that you're some evil madman out to labotomise us. Indeed, if I did think that, you'd be getting much more stern responses. What I'm stressing is the point that these systems do not have any worthwhile benefits. Everything becomes quantitive, Brad. Even if you "seperate the wheat from the chaff" it does. Look at the way you and I write, for instance. We make very large posts filled with information. Would you find it fair to be considered on equal footing with a person that just posts things like "I don't like that idea, there's problems" and "That sounds good, I don't see anything wrong"? Now, don't misunderstand, there's nothing wrong with posts like that, and, depending upon circumstances, such a person's opinion should count equally, but there -is- a definitive quality difference, and it is recognised in the naturally occurring order. Think about it... ignoring the fact of my works, and your company, if you and I wrote like that, would we be who we are within the community? Of course not, and I feel that that's how it should be.
Another aspect of quantity has to deal with skin count. Remember the guy at skins that put out several skins of subpar quality and then used his skin count to judge others? I point system would only encourage such behaviour, the same as it encourages commenting for status. And yes, you have admins, but do you really want to increase their duties in such a way (and admins aren't infallible, even in number)?
Let the naturally occuring qualitive system pick its own heroes and villians, Brad. Attempting to force a heirarchy (in the sense of group relations, "admin/user" heirarchies conform to rules that do not apply here), even if not intentionally, can only lead to problems.

Brad, in all honesty, it sounds like you're attempting to drive a screw with a hammer. You want to increase comment count, honour "contributors", lower bandwidth, and make the site less expensive to run. None of these are wrong to attempt to solve, but you're attempting to find a single solution to fit all of them at once, and it's simply not going to work that way.
The first two, I believe, don't need a "system" to solve them... in fact any systematic methods are more likely to hinder what you desire than help. Try approaching the problem as "Brad, member of the group", instead of "Brad, The big cheese at WC". Stress to your fellows here that for comments to flourish they themselves must be a catalyst... if people see others comment, they're likely to themselves. A complimentary solution is to take things like windowblinds.net (which I'm sure generates a fair bit of the downloads on their own) and somehow add the comment system to them.
As for three and four, I don't currently see any option aside a pay system. It's the only thing that has the remotest chance of even approaching self sustinance given the circumstances. Frankly, I feel we should be discussing possible implimentations of such a system, rather than niggling over points.


(PS: I agree with cat that the amazon "yay or nay" comment system may be a good idea... a form of self-policing, basically.)

'lobotomy', Ess...

Jafo is a two-fingered typist, so his comments tend towards the terse and succinct, rather than the verbose, effusive, wordy, eloquent or overly long - certainly not repetitive or laboured and never superfluous and flowery, and punctuation is faultless except when it's wrong, but then that's another matter or is it? Who can tell.....

-- Quote --
Try approaching the problem as "Brad, member of the group", instead of "Brad, The big cheese at WC".
-- End Quote --

I would argue that the very fact that we're discussing this issue months in advance and trying to gauge user views on a wide variety of issues on this topic would indicate that we're not trying to force something.

As was pointed out, LOS already has a system very similar to what I just outlined. And it seems to be working pretty well for them. But they didn't ask for input before hand. Perhaps to lesson to be learned is to implement a feature and see if it bugs users after the fact.

But seriously, this is just a general discussion.

No solution, whatever we all as a group come up with, is going to be perfect. But in the long term, we will have to find A solution to the problem of limited bandwidth, non-contributing members, and not wanting those who are contributing feeling like they need to pitch in financially. As far as I'm concerned personally, anyone who's purchased a copy of OD, WindowBlinds or anything else has done their share.

If the people who download 200+ megabytes of stuff and never post disappeared from the site, nobody would notice (except download counts would be marginally smaller). Sure, some % of them might "badmouth" the site but it would be pretty hard for someone who's not registerd the programs they're using, downloads massive megs of stuff, never comments to play the victim.

But like I said, ideally more skin sites will arrise. With Windows XP shipping, we'll see more more users coming into the "community" and I think more opportunities for skin sites to thrive. My only fear is that what would happen is that more skin sites will arrive and people will go there to chat and hang out in discussions and then just use this site for their downloading.

Brad, the fact that one site has a system doesn't make it good. I for one would tend to believe some people write comments, post on the message board and upload some skins just to get more points.

And secondly, it isn't true that LOS uses that system. The system in place at LOS doesn't delete comments and posts. It is actually quite different than what you are suggesting. You are suggesting to give points to the person who starts a thread that gets a lot of responses... Well, I think if it happened you would get a lot of the typical DM forum theads "What is your favorite color" or "Who is you favorite actor"... Because almost all threads were like these is the reason I go less at DA as I used to. But expect people to find any stupid topic to start a thread if you start rewarding it.

Anyway, as I said, I'm not opposed to it, but I don't like it either. I would rather not have it, but I won't cry if it happens.

ARRGH. Guys, we are not going to delete people's posts, we were just suggesting various ways we could do that and even in that one suggested route, it was only if it was really obvious someone was spamming.

The point was to show the kind of double standard. You don't see any long painful threads over on LOS about a point system in which there are different ranks based on point accumulation. If we did that here, I suspect you'd see huge outcry but I visit LOS (which I really like btw, started uploading my stuff tonight) and the same people who would be up in arms over here are happily oblivious to it there.

Anyway, this is my last response on this topic. I think I'm going to take a break from WinCustomize for awhile.

Indeed, you are not attempting to force anything, and I am not accusing you of such. What I am saying, in regards to that which you quoted, is that there isn't an "official" thing to do that would have appropriate benefits, so your route is to appeal to your fellows as such, and make clear to them that it is their actions that bring about the change. Frankly, we need another Jsenn, and although we cannot create one on our own, by having all that share the desire post as much as they can (while keeping the quality high), we may lessen or remove the problem, and with luck have a new Jsenn figure come about. People react differently when they see a few comments as opposed to a blank slate, it is a barrier broken.

On LoS, it keeps getting mentioned, but as a nonissue. They have a point system of sortsand it's "not a problem for them", and so on. But I must ask you, do you wish to implement features that will survive because the users will not take offence at it, or because they provide great benefit to the site and its members?

Yes, this is general discussion. I don't consider it anything but.

Yes, no solution will be 100% loved. But the solution must be the one that best fits the situation. The pay system i gave you the most basic of outlines for on #stardock has the potential of that.

Right, under rational situations, the badmouthers wouldn't have a leg to stand on. But the situations I posited are not rational. They're amongst friends, remember that.

Anyhow, sorry to see you won't continue this topic here (although I'm sure you'll read this). If you wish to continue to discuss it with me directly, you know where I can be found.

Brad, don't take it that way. Nobody is attacking anything. You raised an idea, and we give our opinion about that idea. If LOS's admins posted an idea for a feature on the forum, they as well would get different responses.
No need to take it so personal Brad, please. I haven't read anybody attack you, and as far as I can tell, the topic was always adressed in a very gentemanly fashion by everybody and nobody brought the debate on a personal level (except maybe for Frank's post).
We are all posting our ideas, and please just read them as such Brad. We all respect you Brad, but when you start to take things a little personal and start to fell attacked, you become a different person.
Relax, my friend. Life is beautiful.

craeonics has forgotten what this was all about thanks to those long post.
People should learn to be compact, not everything needs to be wrapped in six layers of explanation, context or apologies.
Well, where were we. Ah yes, point system. SO, how is the class sytem implemented? Isn't that an example of the point system?

By the way, jsut use the system propose dby Brad with the addition of penalties. Fuck up and you'll lose points and get set back or get a freeze in the points achievable and such. Or make it synergetic, as in: uploading stuff and participating on the board will give you more points than just doing on of those things. You could multiply the posts from the seprarate sections to get the rating for example.

craeonics will get in anyway, seeing he's the well known face for whom the rules are bent

I talked to Brad this morning here, he says that this discussion is a good one and that he does't feel attacked or anything. He just wishes that there could be "collaborative" discussions rather than adversarial ones. It's not you versus him, it's everyone on the same team trying to come up with ideas to make things better for everyone.

After he said that..I read through through this thread and really saw what he was saying. Nobody attacked anyone. But ya there is definitely an adverserial under current. Alexandrie and T-man run WinCusto anyhow, Brad's just here for many of the same reasons you guys are. For fun.

Now I am glad I kept my trap shut.
I would not have been able to express myself,
as well as the others have.
And I would probably gotten my post deleted, again.

I'd say the difference here vs. the Stardock NGs is that on the Stardock NGs Brad or someone will post an idea and people will say "Hmm that is interesting, what if you did this or that and that might make it better." And then someone else will add there 2-cents. But here, Brad or someone will post an idea and you get a bunch of people just saying why it's a bad idea without saying what they think might be a better idea.

NG ppl and msg board posters are two diff breeds
hehe

Brad should know that he's been around the boards long enough

A post about trying to give kudos to people who help the site turns into yet another evil conspiracy. Yet if Lotsofskins does it, it's okay.
by Mr Frank Leon - 7/16/2001 12:27:53 PM

not the same Frank...
points over at LOS give you a cool icon period.

My only fear is that what would happen is that more skin sites will arrive and people will go there to chat and hang out in discussions and then just use this site for their downloading.
by Admin Frogboy - 7/16/2001 8:04:51 PM

Hopefully that will not happen Brad but if it did just close shop for a while until the issues are resolved with the cost better =/

Anyway, this is my last response on this topic. I think I'm going to take a break from WinCustomize for awhile.
by Admin Frogboy - 7/16/2001 11:20:43 PM

Brad relax and have some fun everybody loves the Frog! hehe
(it will all work itself out at the right time)

Geez... this thread is getting too damn long to keep up with. I could read a Stephen King novel in less time.

looks like i missed out on a good topic. i think it would be fun for some of us to get an idea how we contribute to the community of users of the site.

tandis and doreen, well each website has its own feel. there are tons of delphi message boards and each group has its own character. the skins websites kind of make me envision a scene in which a couple of people are doing a bunch of hard work and they are surrounded by a bunch of people lounging in laz-e-boy chairs bitching about what they're doing while not lifting a finger themselves to help. i don't see that in this topic but i really remember seeing it in other topics in the past. every skin site from skinz.org on has that. people used to just sit around nitpicking shoggot and mian and toasty while not offering any help themselves. that's what i miss about skinz.org, toasty wasn't afraid to tell whiners to go f themselves sometimes.