Complaints about free ice cream

Saturday, August 28, 2004 by Frogboy | Discussion: WinCustomize News

One of the net's top bloggers, Steven Den Beste, has decided to hang up his hat for a bit. Tired of people who mistakenly think they are customers, he's decided to take a break.

I don't think most people realize how annoying it is when people who have paid nothing demand to be treated as if they're customers.

I've written an article on this at JoeUser that gives some specific examples and goes into more detail.

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steele-7
Reply #1 Saturday, August 28, 2004 9:39 PM
I completely agree, I like getting free stuff as much as the next guy but I would never go as far as demand anything of anyone that is GIVING me something... Now if only your guidelines for free stuff could be put in front of every ungrateful morons face...

Also, about the objectdock thing, IMHO that sort of reaction is a shame. I like free stuff and all and would've liked it to have been free BUT when I saw that it was for a price I din't complain, I didn't get mad, I didn't whine and try to make somebody else's life hell. I simply thought "good for them, they make a good thing and they have every right to charge, it is theirs after all, and heck the original object dock is still free."

culverSE
Reply #2 Saturday, August 28, 2004 9:53 PM
Absolutely agree with the complete article. After seeing all the hoopla over OD+ I understand your frustration. People should feel grateful that you and Stardock are generous enough to offer the free products and services you do have. Look at most other companies, you can't even get a free trail from some of them, but complete free products (HA). I love Stardock, all of your products, and of course WinCustomize (Joe User is cool tool just I never got into blogging but hey there's always the future). I feel proud to contribute my little dollars to such a Great organization with such fine products. Thansk Frogboy and all the rest.

TasT
Reply #3 Saturday, August 28, 2004 10:21 PM
Froggy I do have to say that the OD+ thing still ticks me off. I however didn't want it to be free I understand paying for it and using the app to draw people to Stardock. I just thought it should be a part of ODNT.... But hey that arguement is over and I send stardock my renewal fee again so it must have not pissed me off that bad.... Or maybee it's becuase I can't live without WB and IconX?

Mav Phoenix
Reply #4 Saturday, August 28, 2004 10:24 PM
I agree Brad some people just need a good old fashion ass kicking for their behavior. Keep up the good work, it IS appreciated.

Aleatoric
Reply #5 Saturday, August 28, 2004 10:25 PM
I like chocolate ice cream, where is it?

Agreed on the diatribe though, I also find it annoying to read some of those 'I want more' comments, and I'm sure it's more frustrating when they're directed at you.


Reppiks
Reply #6 Saturday, August 28, 2004 10:37 PM
Fromm one of the "quiet ones" that rarely speek up... I have been surfing around WinCustomize for several years, used "WindowBlinds" for a while before purchasing into "ObjectDesktop" this past year. I have admired the amount of contributed artwork by people that could probably make money at what they do. I have also read many of the comments about particular skins and been amazed by the attitude of some that have taken on the attitude that you have addressed. I have , on a couple occasions asked for some kind of infrmation to resolve a particular problem I had with a skin, or applicaton. I was answered quickly and cheerfully. I don't understand the attitude some show toward the "free icecream" but like they say- "The empty kettles make the most noise". Try not to be discouraged, many of us enjoy your products, free or purchased and appreciate the artistry and functionality of your programs.

JeffBDVS
Reply #7 Saturday, August 28, 2004 10:46 PM
It's all about good manners. You know, those things your mom used to tell you to use when you went to a friend's birthday party or sat down with the family at a restaurant. I think Robert Fulghum's "All I Really Need to Know I Learned in Kindergarten" should be required reading as part of every high school senior's core curriculum.

One thing I've learned is that you "catch more flies with honey than with vinegar". I rarely get what I want from a merchant by being angry, rude, demanding and obnoxious. Maybe I'm just not very good at it. But I can _always_ get more of what I want by being reasonable, polite and friendly. With very few exceptions, I always use "please" and "thank you". Admittedly, I will occasionally lose my temper, but it's not something I do often. When I get ugly with someone, I am not proud of my behavior later, nor am I truly satisfied with the outcome, even if I win. Mean and vicious verbal attacks can make one a bully just as much as mean and vicious physical attacks.

This is how I behave as a bona-fide customer I can't imagine how someone thinks they have a right to behave differently when free stuff is involved.

Sidebar: Object Desktop has turned out to be such a good deal that I would feel wrong if I started demanding things of Stardock (instead of just making polite requests) even though I've paid for the use of the software. I feel like I've really got the best end of the deal. As so many others have pointed out, OD hasn't just made my computer look nice it's made me more productive because I can set up my machine in a way that best matches how I work. To be honest, I didn't feel that way when I first paid for a license - I just wanted the eye candy.

-Jeff


Frogboy
Reply #8 Saturday, August 28, 2004 11:56 PM

What really inspired this was the sadness of seeing a great blogger like Steven Den Beste giving up on his excellent articles because of the "free icecream" syndrome. 


Definitely check out his site too.


SelfExiled
Reply #9 Sunday, August 29, 2004 12:44 AM
Hmm, this sounds like the recent Alienware skin fiasco.

Reble
Reply #10 Sunday, August 29, 2004 1:50 AM
Completely Agree with all things said in that blog. There will always be people like that tho, they are just ignorant and pigheaded. Keep up the good work guys.

DVG
Reply #11 Sunday, August 29, 2004 3:17 AM
While I can definitely understand your angst towards customers who feel they deserve something for "free", it seems that you're forgetting that ALL custmomers are as important as any paying customer.As a person who has been in business for 20 years, I found reading your response article to be rather pompous. Are you saying that if you, or Stardock, offer a service free of charge, then the average consumer who is "testing" your "free" product, such as Object Dock, does not desrve any "help" along the way. If this is truly your opinion, then you might want to re-think your business objective. Sure, those "freeloaders" are a pain in the A$$, but if they can be treated with respect, then the percentages of "purchasing customers" will increase dramatically just through some common courtesy. I didn't read your entire response article, so forgive me if I've misinterperted your overall article, but from the first few paragrahs, I must say that your not coming off so well. But hey, what do I know.

DVG
Reply #12 Sunday, August 29, 2004 3:46 AM
Ok, I just read your complete article, and all I can say is WOW, either you are not use to "customer" service, or you just haven't been doing it long enough, I'm not going to even atempt to understand your thought process for writing that article, but think of this, if you were to go to McDonalds website, and find an area within that site where managers and employees were able to bitch and complain about the free "condoments" such as ketchup, relish, or mustard that customers complain they don't receive, and the employees were able to post their thoughts for the whole world to see, how long do uou think the McDonalds company would allow such "web blogging". As an Object Desktop purchaser, I am delighted with the products your company supplies to the general public, all though I will say your FAQ section leaves alot to be desired, but I just can't understand your "public" ranting about anyone who should have a question or concern. Sure, I don't know what kind of "demands" as you call it, that you may have incurred over the past months or years, but to post a link to your own personal opinions about not only the "freeloaders", but any potential future customers is business suicide. But as I sated in my previous post, what do I know.

Essencay
Reply #13 Sunday, August 29, 2004 3:55 AM
(6) Make a honest attempt to read/use/test/rtfm before getting critical about it I like the way people halfass things and then make an assessment, a comment, a critique or a judgement and then after stating it say stuff like, blah, blah, blah...pardon me...blah, blah, blah, but hey what do I know

DVG
Reply #14 Sunday, August 29, 2004 4:01 AM
Sorry my rank here is only "citizen", I guess I should crawl back under my rock and not comment on such things, please forgive me.

20CECIL
Reply #15 Sunday, August 29, 2004 4:39 AM
I totally agree with all things said in the article!
And as "Reble" said: "There will always be people like that tho, they are just ignorant and pigheaded."
That's just what "DVG" stand for, since he don't get the message! So, YES! Crawl back under your rock and stay there!

Attila
Reply #16 Sunday, August 29, 2004 9:03 AM
If you provide a service or goods, then you have customers, people who partake in whatever you offer. If that paid service or good is available for "Free," you have a group of people who are called your customers, and should be treated as such. I read comparisons being made to OD+ and Stardock, but that just further adds credence to the debate. Stardock is a goods/service provider, it has customers, you can't turn that off, it began the first time you made a software product or service available, you built your customer base. Now, because people complain about a certain product or service you provide you don't want to acknowledge them as customes? With regard to blogging, bloggers build a reader base, those readers come to expect a level of standard operating procedure from whomever is providing them "reading material" (a service or situational applicable, a product). It might not be looked at as a business by most, but the fundamental nature behind garnering a reader base, choosing a domain, platform to speak on, and plans to do it with any level of success in mind, it's a business model, plain and simple.

PS: Those 5 rules for free stuff is completely inaccurate and not based on respectable business practices. They're made up, ineffective and should be labled as (opinion) not (the rules).

Why is this community against rhetoric that is anything but praise? You've had a sheltered upbringing if you think "The People" will praise everything you do, the rules list should be appended to include "If you provide substandard services or goods, if you don't live up to customer expectation, If you don't deal well with criticism expect backlash from those not afraid to speak their mind, or better yet, those with minds who speak"

Give me a break, I've never met a larger body of ass kissers this side of the Mississipi. This much blind praise is sickening. Open your eyes, speak about what you'd like to see done better, or changes you would like to see in services and goods you pay for and those you get at "no cost". If you are in need of some lessons on giving and receivng criticism, visit deviantART.com - Be sure to wear your tougher skin.

Brad, your recent blog troubled me because it's promoting the notion of 'bridling your tonuge', 'speak only when spoken to', 'don't ask questions', 'criticism is bad', all notions that further distance me and presumably others from your companies products and services, paid and free alike. But you'd never know that because my comments are deemed "troll-worthy" according to your standards.

butch123
Reply #17 Sunday, August 29, 2004 9:15 AM
Well, being fairly new here and not knowing you guys, I tend to keep my opinions to myself. But, I do agree that if we are getting stuff for free, that is basically donated be people who put lots of work into it, that if we have nothing good to say, maybe we should say nothing. I think a good policy to live by. After all, these people spent lots of time and effort into what they have done. And even if its not to our liking, we should appreciate the work that has been done. Only my opinion.

Butch

Essencay
Reply #18 Sunday, August 29, 2004 9:22 AM
DVG....well at least you went back and read the whole article before you came up with the ridiculous comparison of a McD's catsup package to free web services and bandwidth and free software. When the local McD's starts handing out free basic meals and free use of their kitchen, then you might start making a comparison there

Oh and JoeUser isn't a piss-n-moan site just for Stardock managers and employees, it's an open site to anyone who wants to piss-n-moan about almost anything they wish, so long as they understand they may get moderated by the site's owner

Frogboy
Reply #19 Sunday, August 29, 2004 10:18 AM

No offense Attila but my business experience is a bit lengthier than yours. I've been running a multi-million dollar business for around a decade now so I don't think my business credentials are really at question here are they?


I believe I stressed the point clearly but apparently it wasn't clear enough to some: It is perfectly find to REQUEST help in a free product/good/service. It is perfectly find to REQUEST changes.


It is another thing to make demands. It is another thing to try to view yourself as a customer if you haven't paid money for that product/good/service.


A lot of people, not just Stardock, freely give away things out of personal enjoyment. And we all lose when people like Steven Den Beste get fed up due to people taking the view they are customers and have a right to make demands simply because they make use of a product good or service that is freely given.


DVG: Your McDonald's analogy is not appropriate. Here's why: When you compare an ObjectDock or a JoeUser.com or some other free product/service with condoments like salt and ketchup you are mistakenly assuming that that person is already a paying customer of that entity.


A better analogy would be McDonalds opening a soup kitchen. Those who make use of the free food certainly are free to request anything they want. But they're not *customers*.


Perhaps, Attila, the reason most people agree with me here is that the average age of the user on WinCustomize is 30 while the average age of a user on deviantART is 18.  I think it more common for kids to think that they're somehow doing you a favor for using your free product/good/service.


Frankly, DVG, Attila, I can't help but conclude that you skimmed the article given how often I stressed that people who make use of free things are still free to make requests.  I certainly never implied that people who use a free thing should only "speak when spoken to".


It is that when you are using something you paid nothing for, any request you make should be thought of as you asking for a favor. Not you seeing yourself as a customer that has a right to make demands.


Castle
Reply #20 Sunday, August 29, 2004 10:22 AM
After reading this article I found myself instantly sympathetic based on my own very similar experience. Having said that, I also know that it is human nature to want things to be bigger, better, faster, brighter, cheaper, easier, etc., etc.. All this while criticizing the mannor in which you provide it - regardless of the price.

It's been my experience that a majority of the "customers" are very appreciative of good quality products and services. Of course, there will always be a minority that will rudely demand heaven and earth and require it yesterday. While this behavior can be downright frustrating, you shouldn't let it deter you from giving the best of yourself no matter what you do.

I am a salaried employee for a defense contractor and spend many weekends at the offce providing "free" services to customers that are at the beach with their friends and families or on the golf course with their buddies. I do this knowing full well that some of them will be quite critical and unappreciative of the time I spend on their projects at no charge. I could easily say " to hell with this - I work normal busines hours and you get what you get." This is bad business ethic that not only gets rid of the people I dont like but also drives away the ones I do.

Don't get me wrong. I fully understand the need to occasionally throw up your hands and say "screw it" but for all the people that can and do appreciate your contributions, relax, have a beer, take a deep breath and jump back into the fray.

In the longrun, you'll be glad you did..... and so will many others.

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