Apple: Glass houses alert!
Monday, July 5, 2004 by Frogboy | Discussion: WinCustomize News
For those of you who haven't been keeping up with the MacOS X "Tiger" controversy (i.e. those of you who are normal with lives!) here's our story so far...
On July 28 Apple introduced the new version of MacOS X coming out next year code-named "Tiger" at the big Macintosh developers conference. Included there were these big banners:
Plus this cute graphic:
Here are the key features of Tiger in a nutshell:
- Built in good searching
- iChat AV (video chatting)
- Dashboard
- RSS support built into Safari (web browser)
On its own, these are reasonably good features for a dot upgrade. But what is stirring up the non-Mac zealots is how pretentious Apple chose to be in announcing this. For this Apple has the nerve to start a "Redmond (Microsoft) start your photocopiers"? Please.
Let's take a close look at this:
Spotlight searching is quite impressive. But given Microsoft's work on WinFS which has been in the public record for quite awhile now, this is pretty nervy to talk like this is some sort of major innovation. Come on. Wow. Search. Yes, it's better but not exactly a breakthru here.
iChat AV is not only nothing special but arguably quite derivative of the capabilities already found in most other instant messaging programs. What exactly does Apple imagine someone "copying" from this? Especially when, like the search features, Windows defenders could easily argue that these ideas were lifted off of Windows programs.
But it was Dashboard, above all others, that created the controversy.

Dashboard lets you put widgets on your desktop that show up when you hit a hot key (like a dashboard, get it?). What makes these special, however, is that these widgets (mini applications) are made with Javascript and can be made by non-developers. A set of mini-apps to enhance your desktop experience. And Apple calls this innovative? This is just such a blatant rip off of Konfabulator.
And let's not forget the first program on the PC that let users easily create their own mini-applets to have on their desktop: DesktopX.
DesktopX has been doing "widget" type stuff on the desktop for years.
There wouldn't be so much noise about Apple being inspired (again) by their ISVs or what's happening on Windows if Apple weren't trumpeting very very loudly how they are the innovators and everyone (particularly Microsoft) rips off from them.
But Mac zealots, being zealots, gloss over that. One example I have seen is that Apple invented widgets in the first place. Dincha know? Yea. You see, desktop accesories, made way back when,were the same sort of thing. Please.

That is such an incredibly weak argument. Let's make sure we're on the same page: What makes "widgets" special is that creating them doesn't require one to be a programmer.
Heck, as this screenshot shows, you don't even have to be an artist! (sorry Martin! I'm in the same boat!).
That's what got widgets popular is in the last few years. It opened the door to people who were non programmers but still technical enough to figure out how to do this kind of stuff (a much larger population).
And these programs are "sexy". They do neat things. And they get a lot of press precisely because they open up customizing ones computer to the masses in ways that weren't possible in the past. One can almost imagine some Apple marketing manager seeing an article on Konfabulator or DesktopX or whatever and saying "hey, we need a way to stick that in the next version of MacOS!".
And again, nobody (except the affected ISVs) would give a rip if Apple wasn't so pretentious about inventing everything. I mean, these guys sue smaller companies on a regular basis for borrowing ideas from them.
The fact is, inspiration is all around us. There's no shame in it unless you claim to be uniquely innovative beyond all others. When we come out with ObjectDock Plus next month, you know there's going to be Mac zealots claiming we ripped it off from the Mac or whatever because in the Mac universe, everything comes from them even though ObjectDock Plus is most closely related to Tab LaunchPad from 1994 (see screenshot) which is part of Object Desktop and is kind of the next logical outgrowth of it (and for you Object Desktop users reading this, yes, there will be an upgrade path from TLP to ObjectDock Plus).
Getting to the main point though: Apple wants to have it both ways. It wants to claim its new features as uniquely innovative to the point where they preemptively accuse Microsoft of stealing their ideas even as they themselves steal their ideas from others.
And if Mac advocates want to spin it that Konfabulator or DesktopX were inspired by some prior work then fine. But don't complain when Windows users are unimpressed with a built in search feature and a MS Instant Messenger clone. If you want to play the prior art game, it works both ways.
Now for the record, I am a Mac user too. And I think MacOS X 10.3 is a terrific operating system. What I wish, however, is that Apple and its advocates would really recognize what makes Apple special: Apple is a full baker. That is, Apple is really good at seeing a half-baked idea and figuring out how to make it fully baked.
Apple sees things others have done and recognize where the other guys went wrong and do it much better. iTunes wasn't original, but it was the first music store done right IMO. The Mac GUI wasn't original, but it was the first GUI really done right. And Dashboard is a blatant rip off of Konfabulator, but it sounds like it's going to be implemented in a much better way (the widgets hide when you press a button much like the Overlays feature coming in DesktopX 2.2). And for the record: Stardock has been planning to make an ActiveX control that can run DesktopX widgets on a web page for over a year so if and when that comes out, we did NOT get that idea from Apple.
No one likes a hypocrite. Apple is a very innovative company. But so is Microsoft. And so are lots of others. And they do themselves no favors by accusing their competitor of "photocopying" their ideas for them even as they run their own photocopier on their own ISVs.
update: I think a few (luckily only a few) people think that Apple putting in Dashboard bothers us. It doesn't in the least. What happens on MacOS doesn't affect WINcustomize at all.
So why the hub-bub? Because I've seen first hand how Apple makes a lot of noise when anyone else has a feature similar to something that was in MacOS at any time and here we have a pretty blatant example of Apple doing the same to one of its own ISVs (Konfabulator) *at the same time Apple is preemptively accusing microsoft of copying features*.
And mark my words, as soon as MacOS X is out, you'll have the usual group of Mac zealots running around retroactively claiming that Samurize, DesktopX, SysMetrix, etc. are all copies of Dashboard.
Given the amount of complaining Mac users have made about "Windoze" and how Microsoft copies and how Apple is the creative one, I think it's high time that people start pointing out that Apple isn't really any different from Microsoft at this point. They take concepts and ideas already floating around and put their own spin on it. Which is fine with me as long as they aren't so disengenous about it.
Reply #42 Tuesday, July 6, 2004 1:37 AM
Macrobaye: Most of what you claim you "proved" you didn't. You simply made those assertions.  You didn't "prove" that Microsoft rips off more than Apple. You didn't prove that Apple didn't rip off Watson. You simply gave your opinion. No links, no quotes, no evidence. I haven't even seen evidence that Arlo worked on Desk applets. You just claimed that and then said you "proved it".
On top of that, you have also characterized those who disagree with you as whiners and immature. What exactly have I written that warrants that kind of personal attack?
My article is an editorial. It's an opinion piece.  It is my opinion that it is very tacky for a company to tear someone else down for stealing ideas even as they do it to another.
Reply #43 Tuesday, July 6, 2004 1:44 AM
And you say that it's got nothing to do with you, then why do you even care? You just want to rile up the mac users of this site (I also have a PC by the way).
And one more thing. I do think it is VERY immature to make constant reference to mac users as "zealots" when you know damn well that if I started bashing Windows and PC users, I'd have you and the whole lot of Windows users in here yelling at me. So don't be hypocritical in saying that only Mac users back their computer and OS. The road runs both ways, Frogboy. If you'd like me to demonstrate, I'll make a rather derogatory post about "Windoze" users or "M$ Lemmings" on the message board, and all hell will break loose. But I'm a reasonable person, and I know when to quit. I don't have to prove that to you, because you know damn well what would happen if I were to do so. So stop being so freeeking hypocritical. I know Apple took the idea from Konfab. I'm jsut saying that Arlo deserved what he got for working for Apple in the first place, and for not patenting Konfab.
Case closed.
Reply #44 Tuesday, July 6, 2004 3:28 AM
To contribute to this: "moo".

Reply #45 Tuesday, July 6, 2004 5:12 AM
BTW: I see nothing in common between Desktop Accessories and Desktop X, or Dashboard.  Desktop Accessories is a bundle of small applications like Calculator, Note Pad and Key Caps.  That's not what Desktop X or Dashboard is about.  They're about offering an easy way for just about anybody to create an interactive object on our Desktop, limited only by your imagination.
This is not a computer discussion, it's not about which computer is better than another. It's about a company claiming others copy from it, when it's pretty obvious that there are potocopiers too in Apple's offices.
Reply #46 Tuesday, July 6, 2004 6:08 AM
Everybody "loans" ideas from everyone, it's always been like that - always will. I don't really care about that, it only makes our experiences better and it drives technology forward. I'm just sick of the way they market it. Those "Redmond" posters really make me dislike Apple.
Reply #47 Tuesday, July 6, 2004 7:10 AM
Now im exited cause the IT guy suppose to get me new Mandrake (Big download) Im more exited about Linux screenshots then that new mac Tiger Tigeroo ones.
Reply #48 Tuesday, July 6, 2004 8:43 AM
I guess at least 2 of us are old enough to remember Borland's Sidekick on windows 3.1 which was way better then the first revisions of ObejctDesktop tab launcher or MAC's launcher.
Reply #49 Tuesday, July 6, 2004 9:19 AM
Now for the big question - do I care where the technology came from, or who created it first? This is a trickier point. I care where it comes from, and I believe that the current software I am using gets the credit deserved. If Stardock saw something that was cool in another OS, and developed a Windows version, and it is not infringing on any copyrights, patents or trademarks, then Stardock should get the kudos for the development. Is it still an Apple-first thing? Doesn't really matter does it? I mean has nobody here ever gotten a hand-me-down? Someone else used that first. Played a first person shooter? They are all looking at what works and doesn't work in the other FPS's out there, and improving on that. The whole point about widgets is kind of moot in my book. True, I do agree that the marketing people should be advertising them as "new to the Mac" or OSX, but this isn't the first time that marketing "gurus" have been mis-leading. Remember when Windows95 came out? True Apple jumped all over Microsoft about there being nothing new about it, but Microsoft saw an idea, and adapted it for themselves. It should have been promoted as new to Windows, but it wasn't and now with XP, Windows finally has a decent OS.
Some of us are just glad to have innovation on the OS of our choice. Let those who have been wronged but not receiveing credit take that cause up with those who have wronged them, but let's not get so caught up in it that we start to miss out on some of the great things that are happening in OS'es right now.
Reply #50 Tuesday, July 6, 2004 9:25 AM
I really do like the look of Mandrake Linux it just looks and feels so unique.
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/752055.cms
Reply #51 Tuesday, July 6, 2004 9:36 AM
The fact that Apple "complain" about windows users/software ripping off their ideas, might have something to do with for example a little thing called "ObjectDock"?
And no, I'm not a mac user. The fact of the matter is, this site should be the last to post a story like that, concidering they mainly supply skins/icons for programs that emulate the Mac or Linux look, or in other ways hide the hideousness of the OS.
And I'd go for it PixelCargo, it's a nice system. Although, it's not Mandrake but the windowmanager that looks nice
They are really far ahead, and in my opinion very much ready for desktop users.Reply #52 Tuesday, July 6, 2004 10:03 AM
Brad, I've been reading your posts since FidoNET. You can come across as harsh without realizing it (maybe you do..) so your use of "zealot" is unnecessary and slightly offensive. Yes, there are zealots out there but they exist in all OS circles. I recall you calling Windows users zealots a long time ago when you were advocating OS/2. The term zealot has a negative connotation these days so your classification of Mac users as "zealots" just sounds like a marketing technique.
Now, where's my Corporate Machine...
Reply #53 Tuesday, July 6, 2004 10:13 AM
Gizzo: If Apple users are going to argue that Dashboard isn't a copy off of Konfabulator but rather based on something from long ago (Desk Accessories) then it is just as legitimate to say that ObjectDock is based on Stardock Tab Launchpad from long ago that had the same functionality.
Regarding the word "Zealot": I don't post the emails I get but using the term zealot to describe some of the Mac users out there is being very generous I think. I get emails, see comments, etc. from Mac users who constantly complain about third parties stealing Apple's ideas.  Which is fine until they start defending Apple when it does the same thing.  In computing, zealot isn't generally considered that offensive.  I was, after all, an OS/2 zealot.
Reply #54 Tuesday, July 6, 2004 11:22 AM

Reply #55 Tuesday, July 6, 2004 11:44 AM
http://www.graphixmad.plus.com/mac_troubleshooter/pic_CP_launcher.html
System 7 was released in 1991. Launcher is prior art in my opinion.
http://www.mac512.com/system.htm
This whole argument is stupid. The fact is with Tiger I get a lot of this stuff MS is working on long beforehand and in typical Apple fashion. I don't care about Dashboard or even iChat. Spotlight rules and I would bet that even MS won't do it this well in 2006 (if lucky). Smart Folders are by far the coolest things short of application bundles. (where is StarDock when you need them.)
http://www.apple.com/macosx/tiger/spotlight.html
Oh, and this is a good read on the Dashboard issue.
http://daringfireball.net/2004/06/dashboard_vs_konfabulator
Okay, now back to reality...
Reply #56 Tuesday, July 6, 2004 11:49 AM
Reply #57 Tuesday, July 6, 2004 12:38 PM
i don't care what options you put into OSX because it's still OSX, and i still don't like the way it works. i don't care what applications you steal, what 'innovative' feature you create, or what color you make your interface. it still launches programs the same way, it still interacts with other computers the same way, and it is still not comfortable to me. but that is only me. you won't hear me attack your devision, likewise you shouldn't give a damn about the reasons i use MY operating system.
the redmond remarks are REDICULOUS. they are flamming, they are blantent accusations for the past, present, and future, and they are little more than INTIMIDATION for the poor, ignorant people who are fence-sitting on a new computer. they are in my opinion the culmination of every apple user's snyde rettoric and baseless, objective post in the midst of claiming they are not 'zealots'. for me, seeing those big banners sealed the image that every apple user believes "we are better than you and if you're not on apple, you're just a toy".
all companies use the same tactics. developers in all of these companys know each other on some degree, and they know each other's plans on some degree. they are all going to be influenced by each other, and by what the consumer finds useful. who gives a damn what your OS is becuase they ALL DO THE SAME THINGS in some way or another. they all run certain programs better, they all have ups and downs in stability and security. they all rip of their 'innovations' from other people, buy out other companies to integrate them into their collective whole, sue people who challenge them, and try to out market each other. further more, they all do the little things differently that they do becuaes they have a REASON to. windows is catered to a certain type of person, as is mac. but don't stand on a soap box and try to make the claim that you are the supreme leader of the computer world, and don't bitch about other people who challange that claim.
the mac/pc debate isn't fun anymore. it always turns into a fight. when a friend (and all of my friends use macs) tries to tell me i'm in a lesser world for what eq i use, i walk away. i built my computer from the ground up, and customized it to do exactly what i want it to do. no one can tell me what it can or can't do because only I know. and if it didn't do what i wanted it to do, i'd change it. this is what wincustomize is all about. making something work and look the way WE want it to - for WINDOWS.
we don't need your apple opinions and history. this is a place for the customization of windows. if we're fools then let us relish in our ignorance. just leave us the hell alone.
by the way, macrobaye. i find it humorous how steadfast you were in challanging frogboy and how quickly you pulled the plug, to say 'lets all get along, to each his own.'. i hold your designs in high regard, as well as your place in this community. but keep apple outside of these walls, and so will we. that's the only way we're ever going to hear the end of this silly game.
my new left-wing movement is 'wincustomize for windows'. if you want to say 'M$' and 'Windoze' then do it in another forum while you chew on your applecore. just don't choke on the seeds.
>

Reply #58 Tuesday, July 6, 2004 12:49 PM
DesktopX team haven't invented idea of widgets.
Dashboard is ripped version of Kobfabulator.
These 3 things are clear for me.
Sure, it was a rip but still windows companies are ripping (and rather downgrading/complicating) from Apple much more than Apple from other companies. It is a shame on all that companies (both Windows and Mac ones) using that tactics to sell their products. But let's be honest, when a big company see a good opportunity to increase sales they take it. It is bad for little people but good for big companies.
Why Konfabulator was ripped? Because it was very popular and unpatented. Why it didn't have patent?
Because it made nothing new, just using old things in better graphics. I am sure Apple will be smarter and patent dashboard.
You can ask: can they do that if Konfabulator didn't? Sure because Apple created something enough original that it can be patented. I have seen many widgets, applets and so on but they didn't use idea of appearing for one key and behaving the way Apple's do. They have a bit different purposes.
It is all sad but true. It should be a warning for all us developers/graphics/writers. We should carefully care about our patents and copyrights or we will sink forever.
I use both PCs and Macs if anybody is interested

Regards
Milo
Reply #59 Tuesday, July 6, 2004 2:04 PM
Milo: No one would have a problem with Apple ripping Konfabulator if Apple didn't set themselves up as holier than thou. 
Clearly ObjectDock (the free one) was heavily influenced by the Mac dock.  The difference is, I'm perfectly willing to say that because denying that influence would be disengenous.
But Apple (Steve Jobs in particular) and some of the Mac advocates have been very vocal in saying that Dashboard wasn't influenced by Konfabulator but instead use all sorts of crazy prior art. And as rkadowns demonstrates correclty above, if you play the prior art game, things can get totally ridiculous.
Reply #60 Tuesday, July 6, 2004 2:24 PM

Yes, dashboard was influenced by Konfabulator and Apple should say it. Steve used some bad politics and showed dark side of him. Bad. However, Arlo didn't invent anything new so why Apple should give credits precisely to Konfabulator not for example to DesktopX? Only because Konfabulator is also available for OS X and desktopX not? Maybe all three companies should give credits to earlier applications?
It is a bigger topic that some people think but hey, let's wait for final version of Tiger and also Longhorn

Milo
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Reply #41 Tuesday, July 6, 2004 1:21 AM
Thanks Mav.  And exactly, this isn't a Mac vs. PC thing.
This is about one company A whose made a career demonozing company B for ripping them off even as company A is ripping off company C.
Normally, hypocricy takes time to occur.  I.e. A person or company decries a thing and does that thing much later.
In this case, the hypocricy is occurring at the very same time.  At the same time Apple is ridiculing (or goading) Microsoft for always stealing from Apple, Apple is stealing from their own ISV.
What I have found both surprising and revealing is how some of the Mac people think that *I* am whining or being "immature".  This issue affects me not at all. I just felt it should be pointed out so that next time a wave of Mac zealots descends on us claiming that feature X was "stolen" from Apple that this can be pointed out to them along with the lame prior art arguments Apple devotees have used (the whole Desk accessories thing is pretty funny if you think about it 20 years ago prior art when it's obvious where Apple got their "widget" ideas from).