Apple: Glass houses alert!
Monday, July 5, 2004 by Frogboy | Discussion: WinCustomize News
For those of you who haven't been keeping up with the MacOS X "Tiger" controversy (i.e. those of you who are normal with lives!) here's our story so far...
On July 28 Apple introduced the new version of MacOS X coming out next year code-named "Tiger" at the big Macintosh developers conference. Included there were these big banners:
Plus this cute graphic:
Here are the key features of Tiger in a nutshell:
- Built in good searching
- iChat AV (video chatting)
- Dashboard
- RSS support built into Safari (web browser)
On its own, these are reasonably good features for a dot upgrade. But what is stirring up the non-Mac zealots is how pretentious Apple chose to be in announcing this. For this Apple has the nerve to start a "Redmond (Microsoft) start your photocopiers"? Please.
Let's take a close look at this:
Spotlight searching is quite impressive. But given Microsoft's work on WinFS which has been in the public record for quite awhile now, this is pretty nervy to talk like this is some sort of major innovation. Come on. Wow. Search. Yes, it's better but not exactly a breakthru here.
iChat AV is not only nothing special but arguably quite derivative of the capabilities already found in most other instant messaging programs. What exactly does Apple imagine someone "copying" from this? Especially when, like the search features, Windows defenders could easily argue that these ideas were lifted off of Windows programs.
But it was Dashboard, above all others, that created the controversy.

Dashboard lets you put widgets on your desktop that show up when you hit a hot key (like a dashboard, get it?). What makes these special, however, is that these widgets (mini applications) are made with Javascript and can be made by non-developers. A set of mini-apps to enhance your desktop experience. And Apple calls this innovative? This is just such a blatant rip off of Konfabulator.
And let's not forget the first program on the PC that let users easily create their own mini-applets to have on their desktop: DesktopX.
DesktopX has been doing "widget" type stuff on the desktop for years.
There wouldn't be so much noise about Apple being inspired (again) by their ISVs or what's happening on Windows if Apple weren't trumpeting very very loudly how they are the innovators and everyone (particularly Microsoft) rips off from them.
But Mac zealots, being zealots, gloss over that. One example I have seen is that Apple invented widgets in the first place. Dincha know? Yea. You see, desktop accesories, made way back when,were the same sort of thing. Please.

That is such an incredibly weak argument. Let's make sure we're on the same page: What makes "widgets" special is that creating them doesn't require one to be a programmer.
Heck, as this screenshot shows, you don't even have to be an artist! (sorry Martin! I'm in the same boat!).
That's what got widgets popular is in the last few years. It opened the door to people who were non programmers but still technical enough to figure out how to do this kind of stuff (a much larger population).
And these programs are "sexy". They do neat things. And they get a lot of press precisely because they open up customizing ones computer to the masses in ways that weren't possible in the past. One can almost imagine some Apple marketing manager seeing an article on Konfabulator or DesktopX or whatever and saying "hey, we need a way to stick that in the next version of MacOS!".
And again, nobody (except the affected ISVs) would give a rip if Apple wasn't so pretentious about inventing everything. I mean, these guys sue smaller companies on a regular basis for borrowing ideas from them.
The fact is, inspiration is all around us. There's no shame in it unless you claim to be uniquely innovative beyond all others. When we come out with ObjectDock Plus next month, you know there's going to be Mac zealots claiming we ripped it off from the Mac or whatever because in the Mac universe, everything comes from them even though ObjectDock Plus is most closely related to Tab LaunchPad from 1994 (see screenshot) which is part of Object Desktop and is kind of the next logical outgrowth of it (and for you Object Desktop users reading this, yes, there will be an upgrade path from TLP to ObjectDock Plus).
Getting to the main point though: Apple wants to have it both ways. It wants to claim its new features as uniquely innovative to the point where they preemptively accuse Microsoft of stealing their ideas even as they themselves steal their ideas from others.
And if Mac advocates want to spin it that Konfabulator or DesktopX were inspired by some prior work then fine. But don't complain when Windows users are unimpressed with a built in search feature and a MS Instant Messenger clone. If you want to play the prior art game, it works both ways.
Now for the record, I am a Mac user too. And I think MacOS X 10.3 is a terrific operating system. What I wish, however, is that Apple and its advocates would really recognize what makes Apple special: Apple is a full baker. That is, Apple is really good at seeing a half-baked idea and figuring out how to make it fully baked.
Apple sees things others have done and recognize where the other guys went wrong and do it much better. iTunes wasn't original, but it was the first music store done right IMO. The Mac GUI wasn't original, but it was the first GUI really done right. And Dashboard is a blatant rip off of Konfabulator, but it sounds like it's going to be implemented in a much better way (the widgets hide when you press a button much like the Overlays feature coming in DesktopX 2.2). And for the record: Stardock has been planning to make an ActiveX control that can run DesktopX widgets on a web page for over a year so if and when that comes out, we did NOT get that idea from Apple.
No one likes a hypocrite. Apple is a very innovative company. But so is Microsoft. And so are lots of others. And they do themselves no favors by accusing their competitor of "photocopying" their ideas for them even as they run their own photocopier on their own ISVs.
update: I think a few (luckily only a few) people think that Apple putting in Dashboard bothers us. It doesn't in the least. What happens on MacOS doesn't affect WINcustomize at all.
So why the hub-bub? Because I've seen first hand how Apple makes a lot of noise when anyone else has a feature similar to something that was in MacOS at any time and here we have a pretty blatant example of Apple doing the same to one of its own ISVs (Konfabulator) *at the same time Apple is preemptively accusing microsoft of copying features*.
And mark my words, as soon as MacOS X is out, you'll have the usual group of Mac zealots running around retroactively claiming that Samurize, DesktopX, SysMetrix, etc. are all copies of Dashboard.
Given the amount of complaining Mac users have made about "Windoze" and how Microsoft copies and how Apple is the creative one, I think it's high time that people start pointing out that Apple isn't really any different from Microsoft at this point. They take concepts and ideas already floating around and put their own spin on it. Which is fine with me as long as they aren't so disengenous about it.
Reply #22 Monday, July 5, 2004 10:14 PM
Reply #23 Monday, July 5, 2004 10:22 PM
Reply #24 Monday, July 5, 2004 10:42 PM
?? Something's not right...
Reply #25 Monday, July 5, 2004 10:46 PM
Reply #26 Monday, July 5, 2004 10:48 PM
nice try tho... we know that Apple ripped off Konfab, but Konfab got the idea from Desk Accessories in the first place (as stated by Arlo Rose, creator of Konfab)! It just ended biting them in the @$$. MS does this stuff all the time. That's why they're the monopoly commiting poor business practice and Apple is the innovator with the occasional screw up. Because of this, Apple can get away with it. But we all know MS has gotten away with it hundreds of times before (see my above post)
Reply #27 Monday, July 5, 2004 10:57 PM
I think a few (luckily only a few) people think that *we're* being defensive.
For the record: I don't think Apple has "stolen" anything from us.
I think Apple ripped off Dashboard ideas from Konfabulator.  But that doesn't affect us one iota.
The reason I'm making a lot of noise on this is because I've seen first hand how Apple makes a lot of noise when anyone else has a feature similar to something that was in MacOS at any time and here we have a pretty blatant example of Apple doing the same to one of its own ISVs *at the same time Apple is preemptively accusing microsoft of copying features*.
And even when caught red handed, you still have Mac zealots still lamely try to argue that there was prior art such as accessories back 20 years ago ro whatever.  Really sad.
Hey, by that reasoning, Mac users can't complain about ObjectDock, after all, Tab LaunchPad was available in 1994 and it provided the same functionality. So if you're going to play the prior art game, be consistent.
 
 
Reply #28 Monday, July 5, 2004 11:02 PM
Reply #29 Monday, July 5, 2004 11:05 PM
Reply #30 Monday, July 5, 2004 11:10 PM
How about a link? Given that Arlo has explained where he got his ideas for Konfabulator HERE: http://www2.konfabulator.com/journal/ and you are now attempting to claim otherwise, the onus is on you to provide support for your assertion.
"The concept had nothing in the slightest to do with Desk Accessories, and it had absolutely nothing to do with Active Desktop. It was about empowering the user to make their own little apps that did what they wanted." -Arlo, June 30, 2004.
Reply #31 Monday, July 5, 2004 11:32 PM
BTW, in that same interview, Arlo claims that he was the first to 'implement the idea", although "the folks over at Stardock re-worked one of their programs to work/look like Konfabulator". You sure do have friends in high places.
Bottom line is that Arlo wouldn't even have been working on the mac platform is Steve Jobs didn't hire him to begin with. Therefore he wouldn't have worked on AppleScript and Desk Accessories. Therefore he wouldn't have even thought to make Konfab. Case closed.
And about the dock in OD, you're right that Tab LaunchPad was out before, but OD looks nothing like it. It looks like Apple's dock, to the pixel. Now you can congratulate your developers for making a perfect copy, or you can admit that you took the look/design/fuction of Apple's dock and turned it into software for the PC, that you currently make money off of.
Reply #32 Tuesday, July 6, 2004 12:06 AM
Macrobaye: You need to quit name calling when faced with your own error.
You claimed Konfabulator was based off of Desk accessories. You claimed Arlo admitted this.  I provide a link and a quote from 5 days ago that contradicts your claim.
In resonse, you call me a "whiner". What exactly am I whining about? What do I care if Apple knocks off Konfabulator. How does that harm me? Why would I whine about that?
Given that you falsely claimed DesktopX was a rip off of Konfabulator I am not about to take your word for something without some evidence. Provide a link.
And I am quite well aware that Arlo is very much of the Apple mindset in that he, like Apple, thinsk he's some sort of innovation god. DesktopX doing mini-applets (what he calls widgets) long before Konfabulator existed is pretty easy to prove given that the library here is full of clocks and calendars and MP3 players and all the usual "widget stuff" that were uploaded by users long before Konfabulator existed. 
I don't really care what Arlo himself claims as that's really not the point.
What needs to be recognized is that Apple is ridiculing Microsoft for ripping them off even as Apple rips off one of its own ISVs. No skin off my back but given how often Mac zealots run around the net screaming the "Apple is god" mantra (and we've all seen it for years) this is a good wake up call.
Reply #33 Tuesday, July 6, 2004 12:12 AM
Reply #34 Tuesday, July 6, 2004 12:19 AM
0) Forgive any spelling and redaction mistakes for I am not a natural English speaker
1) I am tired of this discussion, being the argument childish
2) Marketing has been the Apple's strategy for the last...er...many years. Being exageration part of marketing I think Apple is in its right to claim its OS features innovative.
3) Apple is introducing this features as new for Mac users. Features in MacOS are different from thir party software becasuse of the integration they provide.
4) Apple is a mere hardware company, and being the SO specially made for ther computers the key word "innovative" is cleary well used
5) If you are really tired of it, change to the Yellow Dog Linux OS. Sure, you will miss the iLife style, but you will lear the value of your loved OS (Windows or Mac, I really don't care) and as consecuence you will also learn the true meaning of "innovative" in a sarcastic way (I said that because I did, actually I am using my iBook-YDL to write this)
6) Please stop this senseless discussion. Mac VS Windows is a very old topic, and this is just a derivated product of it. Plus, What will you win with it? Mac "zealots" really care little of the wintel world (MacOS has simply fullfilled all of the operating Systems obtejctives) and so should do the windows users with Mac. If you are comfortable with your OS, just use it. Otherwise..."switch"
Thanks for reading
Reply #35 Tuesday, July 6, 2004 12:33 AM
macrobaye:  BTW, I did a google search and I did find a place where Arlo claimed that we copied Konfabulator. But that makes me think it even less likely that Arlo would say that he copied Desktop Accessories.
For the record, Konfabulator came out in 2003.  DesktopX in 2000. DesktopX has always supported mini applets:
Screenshot from 2001 of objects created in 2000: https://www.stardock.com/products/desktopx/dx-mar01a.jpg
Using DesktopX to put objects, widgets, mini-applets, whatever you want to call them was a large part of DesktopX's appeal for a long while. There's really no excuse for some Mac zealot to try to argue that PC users stole Konfabulator's idea.  If DesktopX came out near the same time there might be a reason but we're talking THREE years and DesktopX has always been quite popular (I'm certain DX's user base even in 2001 is higher than Konfabulator's user base is today).
But that's getting off track because after all, if I had something against Konfabulator, I would be rooting Apple on for crushing a potential competitor. 
 
Reply #36 Tuesday, July 6, 2004 12:42 AM
Frogboy, we're not getting anywhere with this immature spew of arguments. We have two extreme sides, and as we all know there are three sides to every argument: mine, yours, and the truth. At the rate we're going, we won't reach it. Let's just be gentlemen about this and end it right now.
The Mac vs PC debate has been going on for too long. To each his own.

Reply #37 Tuesday, July 6, 2004 1:01 AM
Integrating a feature already provided by an ISV in either Windows or MacOS X is not bad, like apple is doing with Dashboard, but saying that APPLE INVENTED IT ("*SHOUTING*") is ridiculas. Microsoft Integrated IE in Windows a long time back when there was another web browser floating call Netscape, & I don't remembar Netscape saying that MS ripped their idea of Browser by which U can open webpage.
I myself like to see features provided by a ISV integrated in OS as then it comes free, but saying that other RIPPED IT is crap, I prefer that apple make the widgets of konfobulator compatible with Dashboardt & also provide users the ability to make their own widgets like we do with DesktopX, or else Dashboard will be limited to only a few Widgets as the numbar of Widgets for Konfobulator is already a lot higher.
Reply #38 Tuesday, July 6, 2004 1:09 AM
Dashboard DOES allow it's users to make widgets. All widgets are, simply, are "web sites" cut down to neat little applications called "applets". They use HTML, JS, XML etc coding, depending on the features you want to implement! So practically anyone with JS and HTML knowledge can create widgets, withouth the need of xCode or other developers tools

Reply #39 Tuesday, July 6, 2004 1:10 AM
Reply #40 Tuesday, July 6, 2004 1:20 AM
There are three sides to every story, and we're no where near the complete truth. Let's just stop while we can.

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Reply #21 Monday, July 5, 2004 9:43 PM
People aren't going to just go to Apple because they have some cool widgets. Well, maybe some will but I doubt they will in mass numbers. Don't take it so personally. No one's out to get you except maybe Tim the OS/2 Guy.
Chill out, dude...