Apple: Glass houses alert!
Monday, July 5, 2004 by Frogboy | Discussion: WinCustomize News
For those of you who haven't been keeping up with the MacOS X "Tiger" controversy (i.e. those of you who are normal with lives!) here's our story so far...
On July 28 Apple introduced the new version of MacOS X coming out next year code-named "Tiger" at the big Macintosh developers conference. Included there were these big banners:
Plus this cute graphic:
Here are the key features of Tiger in a nutshell:
- Built in good searching
- iChat AV (video chatting)
- Dashboard
- RSS support built into Safari (web browser)
On its own, these are reasonably good features for a dot upgrade. But what is stirring up the non-Mac zealots is how pretentious Apple chose to be in announcing this. For this Apple has the nerve to start a "Redmond (Microsoft) start your photocopiers"? Please.
Let's take a close look at this:
Spotlight searching is quite impressive. But given Microsoft's work on WinFS which has been in the public record for quite awhile now, this is pretty nervy to talk like this is some sort of major innovation. Come on. Wow. Search. Yes, it's better but not exactly a breakthru here.
iChat AV is not only nothing special but arguably quite derivative of the capabilities already found in most other instant messaging programs. What exactly does Apple imagine someone "copying" from this? Especially when, like the search features, Windows defenders could easily argue that these ideas were lifted off of Windows programs.
But it was Dashboard, above all others, that created the controversy.

Dashboard lets you put widgets on your desktop that show up when you hit a hot key (like a dashboard, get it?). What makes these special, however, is that these widgets (mini applications) are made with Javascript and can be made by non-developers. A set of mini-apps to enhance your desktop experience. And Apple calls this innovative? This is just such a blatant rip off of Konfabulator.
And let's not forget the first program on the PC that let users easily create their own mini-applets to have on their desktop: DesktopX.
DesktopX has been doing "widget" type stuff on the desktop for years.
There wouldn't be so much noise about Apple being inspired (again) by their ISVs or what's happening on Windows if Apple weren't trumpeting very very loudly how they are the innovators and everyone (particularly Microsoft) rips off from them.
But Mac zealots, being zealots, gloss over that. One example I have seen is that Apple invented widgets in the first place. Dincha know? Yea. You see, desktop accesories, made way back when,were the same sort of thing. Please.

That is such an incredibly weak argument. Let's make sure we're on the same page: What makes "widgets" special is that creating them doesn't require one to be a programmer.
Heck, as this screenshot shows, you don't even have to be an artist! (sorry Martin! I'm in the same boat!).
That's what got widgets popular is in the last few years. It opened the door to people who were non programmers but still technical enough to figure out how to do this kind of stuff (a much larger population).
And these programs are "sexy". They do neat things. And they get a lot of press precisely because they open up customizing ones computer to the masses in ways that weren't possible in the past. One can almost imagine some Apple marketing manager seeing an article on Konfabulator or DesktopX or whatever and saying "hey, we need a way to stick that in the next version of MacOS!".
And again, nobody (except the affected ISVs) would give a rip if Apple wasn't so pretentious about inventing everything. I mean, these guys sue smaller companies on a regular basis for borrowing ideas from them.
The fact is, inspiration is all around us. There's no shame in it unless you claim to be uniquely innovative beyond all others. When we come out with ObjectDock Plus next month, you know there's going to be Mac zealots claiming we ripped it off from the Mac or whatever because in the Mac universe, everything comes from them even though ObjectDock Plus is most closely related to Tab LaunchPad from 1994 (see screenshot) which is part of Object Desktop and is kind of the next logical outgrowth of it (and for you Object Desktop users reading this, yes, there will be an upgrade path from TLP to ObjectDock Plus).
Getting to the main point though: Apple wants to have it both ways. It wants to claim its new features as uniquely innovative to the point where they preemptively accuse Microsoft of stealing their ideas even as they themselves steal their ideas from others.
And if Mac advocates want to spin it that Konfabulator or DesktopX were inspired by some prior work then fine. But don't complain when Windows users are unimpressed with a built in search feature and a MS Instant Messenger clone. If you want to play the prior art game, it works both ways.
Now for the record, I am a Mac user too. And I think MacOS X 10.3 is a terrific operating system. What I wish, however, is that Apple and its advocates would really recognize what makes Apple special: Apple is a full baker. That is, Apple is really good at seeing a half-baked idea and figuring out how to make it fully baked.
Apple sees things others have done and recognize where the other guys went wrong and do it much better. iTunes wasn't original, but it was the first music store done right IMO. The Mac GUI wasn't original, but it was the first GUI really done right. And Dashboard is a blatant rip off of Konfabulator, but it sounds like it's going to be implemented in a much better way (the widgets hide when you press a button much like the Overlays feature coming in DesktopX 2.2). And for the record: Stardock has been planning to make an ActiveX control that can run DesktopX widgets on a web page for over a year so if and when that comes out, we did NOT get that idea from Apple.
No one likes a hypocrite. Apple is a very innovative company. But so is Microsoft. And so are lots of others. And they do themselves no favors by accusing their competitor of "photocopying" their ideas for them even as they run their own photocopier on their own ISVs.
update: I think a few (luckily only a few) people think that Apple putting in Dashboard bothers us. It doesn't in the least. What happens on MacOS doesn't affect WINcustomize at all.
So why the hub-bub? Because I've seen first hand how Apple makes a lot of noise when anyone else has a feature similar to something that was in MacOS at any time and here we have a pretty blatant example of Apple doing the same to one of its own ISVs (Konfabulator) *at the same time Apple is preemptively accusing microsoft of copying features*.
And mark my words, as soon as MacOS X is out, you'll have the usual group of Mac zealots running around retroactively claiming that Samurize, DesktopX, SysMetrix, etc. are all copies of Dashboard.
Given the amount of complaining Mac users have made about "Windoze" and how Microsoft copies and how Apple is the creative one, I think it's high time that people start pointing out that Apple isn't really any different from Microsoft at this point. They take concepts and ideas already floating around and put their own spin on it. Which is fine with me as long as they aren't so disengenous about it.
Reply #62 Tuesday, July 6, 2004 3:17 PM
Mac is amasing when it comes down to integrating things directly into their OS + its hardware manufacturer so stability issues are less common then with pCz.
But they are absolute rip-off!!!
I mean for half a price I can get more powerfull machine that runs same and better software (not to mention games!!!) And I can log on to win customise / stardock and get my desktop looking funkier then any bloody mac out there!
CONCLUSION - nothing against Mac at all but for me to swich from one platform to another I need to be able to buy top of the range G5 for under £1000 (in UK) and I need to run revolutionary (not same) software on it that will do job better and faster then anything else on PC.
SIMPLE AS THAT!!!

Reply #63 Tuesday, July 6, 2004 3:43 PM
P.S. I own a G5 and I use Macs quite often... I am by no means an Apple hater. I just think that they take this "I invented this" thing way too far. When Apple starts to actually listen to their customers and start adding features that people want rather than what they "think" users want, then, and only then, will they be a decent software company.
Reply #64 Tuesday, July 6, 2004 3:45 PM
Reply #65 Tuesday, July 6, 2004 4:00 PM
> It looks like Apple's dock, to the pixel. Now you can congratulate your developers for making a perfect copy,
> or you can admit that you took the look/design/fuction of Apple's dock and turned it into software for the PC,
> that you currently make money off of.
incorrect. we make 0 dollars off ObjectDock. Actually, the project has been in works as a technology demo as far back as 1999. I personally have spent months and months of my life working away on it just for the sake of bringing over the technology which was originally said to be "impossible" to do on a PC, so that people could enjoy it. ObjectDock's zoomable bit and imitated features will never ever be used for profit.
As for ObjectDock Plus, it's all sort of advanced functionality and original features we put in that integrates with the free system that users will pay for.
Reply #66 Tuesday, July 6, 2004 4:22 PM
I'm pretty sure Microsoft will do the same with the launch of their new Windows-version ( I'm already wondering how many "innovations" will be rip-offs in that one )
Reply #67 Tuesday, July 6, 2004 4:57 PM
"JTFolden, one reason I'm bringing this up loudly because mark my words, as soon as Mac users generally have Dashboard they're going to start retroactiving claiming that programs like DesktopX or Samurize stole their ideas from it. "
That's probably true... but it's not unique to Mac users... Users of every OS do this... Windows, Mac, Linux, Be, etc, etc.
...What you're doing now isn't doing anything to change that. You're just creating a new fuss prior to the one to come.

Reply #68 Tuesday, July 6, 2004 5:00 PM
Please provide your source. I am actually quite interested.
I believe Microsoft's Aero technology is equivalent to Quartz. Being that Expose is possible in it's present form due to the existence of Quartz, I don't see how Apple ripped a potential use for Quartz from MS when MS doesn't even have a shipping technology to do the same. MS can talk all day about how a technology can be used, but Apple has already done it. That suggests to me that in fact Apple had already done the homework and possibly were not ripping from MS. I'm sure there was talk by someone back in the day before automobiles about creating a device with 4 wheels and an engine to replace the horse but did nothing with it. Does that make Henry Ford an idea thief?
All this hoopla can also be said about Sun and their Java Desktop. Did sun rip Apple? In my opinion no. The fact that 3 major players are moving to 3D powered desktops indicates a trend in technology, not necessarily a lack of innovation. These 3D interfaces naturally lend themselves to the types of tricks that Konfab have credited themselves to have invented. In all actuality it was the innovation in the interface that allowed for products like Konfabulator to exist as it does. All Konfab did was take an established idea in desktop accessories and apply them differently. Who is to say that Apple hadn't already had this method on the drawingboard long before Konfab became popular? As far as we know, Apple kept Dashboard on the stove to simmer a while. They could have released it whit Jag or Cheetah, but why not keep it around for Tiger to give people that little added incentive to purchase Tiger? Don't want to blow your wad all at once you know. I could be wrong, however I do not believe that Apple would create a technology like Quartz and not have any idea as to how to use it.
Take Spotlight for example. Advanced searching of your computer is not a new and novel idea. Does it need improved? Sure, and that is why Apple has made a big deal out of this. Not because they invented the searchable computer, but because they have solved a major problem. MS wants to do the same thing and improve searching. The problem is that MS has to reinvent the wheel and create a file system such as WinFS that does a lot of what HFS+ and it's metadata already does. Hence the reason why Apple will have advance searching in the public in 6 months and MS will have it out sometime in the next decade. Did Apple copy MS or did MS copy Apple? After all, Apple had the all pieces of the puzzle already. Look up the history of Copeland. This concept is nothing new to Apple, they are only just now getting to it being that Apple was in a world of hurt for a long while before Jobs returned. Do you think Apple hired the engineer that wrote the file system for BeOS to run mail? With him and the benefits of HFS already in place, it didn't take nearly as much to make Spotlight happen as opposed to what MS has to do.
All in all, Apple was poking fun at Redmond. To take it seriously is a mistake in my opinion. Just watch, MS will strike back again sooner or later. Maybe in 2006 in which case Apple will return with salvos of their own.
Reply #69 Tuesday, July 6, 2004 5:39 PM
Might consider reading some of the extremely well written articles there regarding Konfab and Dashboard and Desk Accessories.
Reply #70 Tuesday, July 6, 2004 5:54 PM
Reply #71 Tuesday, July 6, 2004 6:15 PM
I used to visit a Windows XP technology site that was written by Paul Thurrott who had early builds of Longhorn http://www.winsupersite.com/reviews/longhorn_alpha.asp . He has alpha screens of some of the Longhorn technology and stated that the Expose was a blatent rip and said that M$ was stopping all Alpha build and only allowing certain testers to use the new stuff because of what Apple did. (This was all way before Panther was released).
M$ has since retooled the feature so that it functions a little differently.. according to Paul Thurrott.
Reply #72 Tuesday, July 6, 2004 6:44 PM
http://www.apple-x.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=923
If this is MS's Expose, it's pretty cool, but not as useful. It just proves my opinion though. That these GUI technologies (Quartz, Aero, Looking Glass) are only setting the stage for parties like Stardock to take advantage of them, even if the ideas themselves are nothing more than new twists on old ideas which will lead us back to this topic. Who ripped who.
Reply #73 Tuesday, July 6, 2004 6:47 PM
rkadowns wrote: "You can't complain that Apple ripped from Konfab or MS and then say it's okay that you ripped from the Apple Dock"
But there's a key difference. I don't run around claiming that everyone rips us off.  When Microsoft copied WindowBlinds features to a large extent and put them in Whistler (XP) I didn't run around screaming about it. I didn't even write a single article complaining in fact.  Why? Because it's Microsoft. They make no bones about what they do.
But Apple, by contrast, makes a big stink about how innovative THEY are and how everyone else steals from them.  They set themselves up on a high horse. And here they're blatantly ripping off Konfabulator even as they ridicule Microsoft for stealing their ideas.
If I put on the ObjectDock page "Apple start your photocopiers" THEN it would be hypocritical. 
Reply #74 Tuesday, July 6, 2004 7:53 PM
And again, this is not about which OS is better. I honestly think that Jaguar is awsome, but I also can't wait to see Longhorn in action. Looks like it's going to be something else too. But I really HATE Apple the company. They behave like a brat baby. They cry cry cry all the time "Mommy Billy took my toy!" but THUMP! don't hesitate to stab in the back as soon as mommy isn't looking.
Reply #75 Wednesday, July 7, 2004 6:15 AM
and Browser3D has been out for a while now
...Not saying they did that, but hell, Browse3D did it first

no seriously though, if no one else could make wheels round after the first person did it, all our cars would go BANG BANG BANG driving down the road on flat sided geometric shapes.

hehe

Reply #76 Wednesday, July 7, 2004 6:19 AM
Frogboy, you are doing the right thing by keeping history true by speaking your mind.
Macrobaye, Thats about the tenth time on these boards, I have seen you called on something you say. You never give the backup and you call for a truce instead. Then a couple posts later you jump back in with more nonsense. I call it nonsense when you fail to produce the necessary info to back yourself up. This isn't a personal attack in any regards. Sometimes people repeat patterns and have no clue that others see right through them. It's just an observation and I thought you might want to know how others percieve your online ettiquette.

Reply #77 Wednesday, July 7, 2004 7:43 AM
Macrobyte: Saying ' MS does it more than us ' is just trying to cover it up. Apple either does it or dosen't, it's that damm simple.
Reply #78 Wednesday, July 7, 2004 11:24 AM
Secondly, Corporate world is not a friendly place. You want to take over a company? You buy them out for as little as possible to turn over your profif margin at a higher level. Basically all Corporate take overs are one company ripping off the next. So how is the OS wars any different?
Third, lets take a few steps back. OS-X is nothing more than the Mac UI over Linux, so heh, back off of any real innovations there. Linux has had the ability to put a Mac OS UI for it's look and feel for ages now. Yeah, they may have customized their version of the OS to suite their needs, but as any Linux user can tell you that's nothing new. They do this all the time. Yes, OS-X is great because of it too!
I used to work for Computer City, and there was a guy there that would day in and day out give me a load of "Mac is God!" crap, and even more so over "Photoshop is the End All!". More times than not, I proved this guy wrong and it made him furious with me. All because I could do the same work in a different program and get the exact same results and taken to a Printing company where it was printed up perfectly. It's called skill with the user and knowledge of how to get it done right!
Like most that post on here ( I would gather at least ) I build my own computers. Since Apple removed that ability from us by taking out the Clone business so that they got all the profits from their computers? I wouldn't buy into a Apple no more than I would go out and buy some PoS system from Compaq, HP, Sony, and quite a few others out on the market. The OS wars do not affect me one little bit, because I know both sides of the story.
Personally I love the fact that Frogboy posted his article, it's great. Macrobyte is just another die-hard Mac-Addict as we called them here, that cannot stand for anyone to tarnish anything Apple does. No matter how little, he's of the oppinion Apple can do no wrong. Well....... Unless you worked for both Microsoft, Apple, Xerox, IBM, Commadore? How the hell do you know if any of what you -read- coming from any of these companies is 100% true? You don't and can't possibly.
Frogboy has at least backed up everything he's stated with links, dates, quotes from individuals ( That can be doubted if they were printed in a mis-quote ). Macrobyte has continuously -Argued- without any form of any real proof of anything he's said other than ranted on about things that were already known and have been known for quite some time while dancing around Apple's door-step.
Point is, Apple borrows from others and then cries foul of anyone else that even Looks, Feels, or comes even a trifle close to anything -They- create for their precious OS! Even though eveyrone KNOWS already that Microsoft has done this over and over, at least they're not crying FOUL when someone does it to them. In short, they're pretty dang even except for the finger pointing that Apple tends to do. Worse part is, Apple users ( For some at least ) tend to get bent on anything said in a even slightly negative way about their prized Company of choice.
Hats off to Frogboy! Marvelous article indeed!

Reply #79 Wednesday, July 7, 2004 1:48 PM
BTW, I think Frogboy was a little too fast to dismiss the new feature in ichat how it displays the people in there when there is 3, as far as I know no other messager does that.
And what's this I hear about a new keystroke in desktopX to hide the objects? Whoohoo.
Reply #80 Wednesday, July 7, 2004 2:37 PM

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Reply #61 Tuesday, July 6, 2004 2:56 PM
Exactly, and is why I think that by you bringing up this topic is so ridiculous. You can't have it both ways. You can't complain that Apple ripped from Konfab or MS and then say it's okay that you ripped from the Apple Dock. These stupid banners Apple presented as WWDC is just an attempt at humor. Everybody knows that the copying goes both ways between Redmond and Cupertino. Some will say more so one way than the other, but does it really matter? End the end we all get a piece of the pie.
As far as I am concerned, both Konfab and Dashboard are ripoffs of desktop accessories. But can Apple steal from themselves?
I would be interested if stickies are included with Tiger as they have been in Mac OS for ages.
By-the-way, I don't appreciate the sneaky approach you took to insult me, however I'm happy you got my point. Original ideas are very rare these days. There isn't an original idea in Object Desktop, yet I use it because I believe it's the best product at what it does.