America prepares for war...
Friday, September 14, 2001 by Frogboy | Discussion: WinCustomize News
Some people, mostly outside the United States believe that the US response is going to be a single or brief set of air strikes against some designated enemy. That is not the case.There won't just be a strike. The United States is mobilizing for war as we speak. The government just activated the reserves today. There won't be a single strike, it is going to be a prolonged campaign that will likely take years.
Colin Powell yesterday basically set up the way it's going to work. Countries with terrorist training camps in them will be approached to eliminate the problem themselves. If they do not, the US will 1) Take care of the problem for them and 2) Move to replace the government with one more civilized.
I don't think people outside the US have grasped that the United States is not viewing this as a law enforcement problem, it is viewing this as a war. We're not talking some air strikes, we're talking sending in ground troops to either blockade or invade nation states that harbor terrorists.
And the nations that may have US and international invervention (remember, this isn't the US versus the world, this is the world versus a handful of rogue nations who aid and harbor terrorists) would be conquered and have their governments replaced much as what we done with Japan and Germany.
One foreign policy expert yesterday pointed out that the only way to win for the long term is to change the cultures of this countries. To de-fanatacize them. When the US occupied Japan and Germany, it turned them into peaceful countries right down to the culture.
If they had had the Internet in 1941, I doubt anyone here would guess that years later, Japan would have Japan Disney and Mickey Mouse being their favorite cartoon character. Japan Disney does more business than Disney World in Florida. Cocacola is their favorite soft drink. American pop stars are their favorite musicians.
This is what is being discussed. The only way to win this in the long haul is for us to turn these enemies of the United States into us. Us being Western Europeans/Americans.
And before you think such plans absurd or extreme, I merely point to history where it is exactly how the Allies handled World War II. We turned the Japanese and Germans into us. And the people are happier for it.
And again, before someone points out that one cannot turn these fanatics into us. Read up on Nazism. You can't get much more fanatical than the Hitler youth was.
These countries in the Middle east will have to either abolish terrorism on their own or they will face the international community's determination to forever eliminate not just the terrorists but the culture that breeds terrorism. Don't think it can't be done, it's been done before when it was far more daunting to do so.
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moppers
Reply #42 Sunday, September 16, 2001 11:26 AM
Reply #42 Sunday, September 16, 2001 11:26 AM
The events of last week will forever be etched in our minds. As our prayers go out to the rescuers and the victims families we must remain united and support our president whether we voted for him or not. We must do whatever is necessary to stop the terriorism. I don't want to see a war start as I have a 25 yr. old son. But what must be will be. May God bless us and have mercy on our souls. United we stand, divided we fall.
Frogboy
Reply #43 Sunday, September 16, 2001 12:32 PM
Reply #43 Sunday, September 16, 2001 12:32 PM
It really doesn't matter what you think it is SSL. It is war. And if you cannot make the distinction between flying civilian airlines into office buildings for the express purpose of killing innocents and accidental collateral damage, then you have my sympathy.
DavidK
Reply #44 Sunday, September 16, 2001 2:02 PM
Reply #44 Sunday, September 16, 2001 2:02 PM
I have been unable to post a response here since my last post. This is a test to see if maybe my response is being blocked because it's too long...
DavidK
Reply #45 Sunday, September 16, 2001 2:05 PM
Reply #45 Sunday, September 16, 2001 2:05 PM
since that seems to be the case I'll break it up into three parts...
I've been staying out of conversations on the MB's because I'm not sure of my own rationality at this time. I was struck with such numbing grief and rage, and then found out that a very good friend of mine was on the plane that hit the Pentagon. Having her face, her voice and her wonderful personality attached to the incidents has deeply personalized and multiplied my pain and my rage.
It's impossible to get the truth anymore, not that anyone has been clamoring for it. Spin seems to be preferred because it's less threatening. We can now expect even less truth from the press both domestic and international. The propaganda filters and outright content control is now a matter of international security. Dissention in the form of mere questions can be viewed as seditious when a country is at war. But questions and disbelief are natural when you are asked to accept that our system failed so miserably to protect us.
I've been staying out of conversations on the MB's because I'm not sure of my own rationality at this time. I was struck with such numbing grief and rage, and then found out that a very good friend of mine was on the plane that hit the Pentagon. Having her face, her voice and her wonderful personality attached to the incidents has deeply personalized and multiplied my pain and my rage.
It's impossible to get the truth anymore, not that anyone has been clamoring for it. Spin seems to be preferred because it's less threatening. We can now expect even less truth from the press both domestic and international. The propaganda filters and outright content control is now a matter of international security. Dissention in the form of mere questions can be viewed as seditious when a country is at war. But questions and disbelief are natural when you are asked to accept that our system failed so miserably to protect us.
DavidK
Reply #46 Sunday, September 16, 2001 2:07 PM
Reply #46 Sunday, September 16, 2001 2:07 PM
On Wednesday there was an article on the London Times website stating that the British intelligence agency was furious at the CIA. They claim they had given the CIA information warning them of this attack. They had names, dates and the target (WTC and DC buildings) and said the information was passed with the highest level of confidence and urgency to the top level contact at the CIA. They were demanding to know why this information was ignored... That article also appeared at the BBC website and the Israeli news website. The next day it was not on any of the sites and was replaced with an article titled "CIA was warned" which talked about an analyst telling them something like this could happen ten years ago...
Friday I saw a report on NBC that the French intelligence warned us several days before the attack. Another story on FOX was that a man being held in Germany said he called the "US police" and warned of the attack specifically mentioning the WTC. And yet, no effort to increase security, or even inform the airlines to watch for the names (which it turns out are the names they used on their tickets) of the known terrorists known to be here and planning an attack using domestic airlines.
Friday I saw a report on NBC that the French intelligence warned us several days before the attack. Another story on FOX was that a man being held in Germany said he called the "US police" and warned of the attack specifically mentioning the WTC. And yet, no effort to increase security, or even inform the airlines to watch for the names (which it turns out are the names they used on their tickets) of the known terrorists known to be here and planning an attack using domestic airlines.
DavidK
Reply #47 Sunday, September 16, 2001 2:09 PM
Reply #47 Sunday, September 16, 2001 2:09 PM
I don't know what is true and what isn't. Some things just make no sense to me. Terrorism makes no sense to me.
The facts that are known regarding the CIA's involvement with training and supporting insurgency (terrorist) groups are public record. No one disputes it. And this is from an agency that reveals absolutely nothing about their actions to the public. Not only does the CIA have a complete blanket of secrecy over their operations except for some disclosure to the congressional select committee on intelligence, there is an additional 60 Billion dollars annually for 'black-ops' that doesn't even have that congressional oversight, nor even by the president. The CIA has admitted to trafficking in drugs. They invented crack cocaine and brought that into our country. Who knows what else they're up to? Why, with the obvious failure to protect us from this attack should we assume they are doing everything in our best interest? It was, after all, the CIA that put Saddam Hussein and the Taliban in power in their respective countries. Admittedly a mistake now, but when, after we rid the world of terrorism, do we start demanding accountability from our own government agencies?
The facts that are known regarding the CIA's involvement with training and supporting insurgency (terrorist) groups are public record. No one disputes it. And this is from an agency that reveals absolutely nothing about their actions to the public. Not only does the CIA have a complete blanket of secrecy over their operations except for some disclosure to the congressional select committee on intelligence, there is an additional 60 Billion dollars annually for 'black-ops' that doesn't even have that congressional oversight, nor even by the president. The CIA has admitted to trafficking in drugs. They invented crack cocaine and brought that into our country. Who knows what else they're up to? Why, with the obvious failure to protect us from this attack should we assume they are doing everything in our best interest? It was, after all, the CIA that put Saddam Hussein and the Taliban in power in their respective countries. Admittedly a mistake now, but when, after we rid the world of terrorism, do we start demanding accountability from our own government agencies?
DavidK
Reply #48 Sunday, September 16, 2001 2:10 PM
Reply #48 Sunday, September 16, 2001 2:10 PM
Can the American people be trusted to make decisions or even just be informed of decisions our government makes? I think so... and I think we should demand to be informed and hold our politicians accountable. I'm proud of all that America stands for and I wish that our foreign policy could consistently reflect those values. I would like to believe that we are being told we will give up many of our freedoms because that is necessary to eradicate this evil from our planet, and not to protect a corrupt political structure that is paranoid of public opinion and truthful disclosure. I consider myself fiercely patriotic and protective of the American way of life. I want the perpetrators of these heinous acts punished and prevented from ever committing such atrocities again. And I want America and it's values and freedoms to survive into a new age of global concern for the health and welfare of all the human race. We are about to be tested to an unprecedented degree. We will fight the good fight against fanaticism and terror. As a nation we are being asked to give our best physically and spiritually and we as a United States citizens have the right, and even a duty, to expect that our leaders give us the same degree of integrity and focus.
btw - while surfing around the net I noticed at the website for the congressional select committee on intelligence that Gary Condit is no longer listed as a member. Perhaps this is a good omen.
btw - while surfing around the net I noticed at the website for the congressional select committee on intelligence that Gary Condit is no longer listed as a member. Perhaps this is a good omen.
Fa65*BFh
Reply #49 Sunday, September 16, 2001 3:54 PM
Reply #49 Sunday, September 16, 2001 3:54 PM
War sucks, everyone knows it, but countries (like people) need to build their path to survival, you cant stop terrorists argumenting, its sad but has been since the begining of the world, every animal fights for his territory, if you dont... you will be ate quickly.
But we are not just animals, we are humans, and humans knows to reason, when they kill somebody they know it hurts to him and to all his family and friends, they know they are taking out their only chance to live, thats why in wars is supoused you CANT attack public places, just militar facilities.
But terrorists attacked to common citizens, must of them dont know whats happening there and they are only trying to live, no matter wich country that makes me angry, if USA dont respond then they will continue, killing innocent lives, i know USA gov did some dirty tricks in the past, as many countries do since they are just looking for survival and expansion, but many of the ppl who was working there didnt know that, and died leaving behind theri only chance to live, leaving sadness to all their friends and family.
Off course that if USA strikes, as MisterME said there will be also several deaths and sad, and that isnt civilizated, but if they dont terrorist will continue until something is done, and we are talking about far more lifes and mostly of common citizen who didnt decided if egypt can kill or not palestinians for their lands.
Just my cent... which i think isnt very well explained since english is always a pain in the neck.
But we are not just animals, we are humans, and humans knows to reason, when they kill somebody they know it hurts to him and to all his family and friends, they know they are taking out their only chance to live, thats why in wars is supoused you CANT attack public places, just militar facilities.
But terrorists attacked to common citizens, must of them dont know whats happening there and they are only trying to live, no matter wich country that makes me angry, if USA dont respond then they will continue, killing innocent lives, i know USA gov did some dirty tricks in the past, as many countries do since they are just looking for survival and expansion, but many of the ppl who was working there didnt know that, and died leaving behind theri only chance to live, leaving sadness to all their friends and family.
Off course that if USA strikes, as MisterME said there will be also several deaths and sad, and that isnt civilizated, but if they dont terrorist will continue until something is done, and we are talking about far more lifes and mostly of common citizen who didnt decided if egypt can kill or not palestinians for their lands.
Just my cent... which i think isnt very well explained since english is always a pain in the neck.
Frogboy
Reply #50 Sunday, September 16, 2001 7:43 PM
Reply #50 Sunday, September 16, 2001 7:43 PM
If indeed the CIA was warned before hand of these specific attacks I hope this comes out. Right now I'm skeptical.
mariuss
Reply #51 Monday, September 17, 2001 12:03 AM
Reply #51 Monday, September 17, 2001 12:03 AM
Nothing will come out unless you put some pressure on your government.
It did come out what happened at Pearl Harbor, so what? Did anything change? Most americans don't know even today that the attack was known to happen and it was used just to get the people angry against Japan and ask their military to enter the war. Do you think that they have higher morale standards today?
It did come out what happened at Pearl Harbor, so what? Did anything change? Most americans don't know even today that the attack was known to happen and it was used just to get the people angry against Japan and ask their military to enter the war. Do you think that they have higher morale standards today?
DavidK
Reply #52 Monday, September 17, 2001 12:29 AM
Reply #52 Monday, September 17, 2001 12:29 AM
I've seen two different explanations from the CIA as to why the tip went unheeded. The first was "we get these kind of reports all the time" (which British intelligence emphaticly said was not true... not through the channel from which this was delivered). If this were true and they just didn't take it seriously, George Tenet should resign as Director.
(This next warning was from the Mossad a month ago, delivered personaly in Washington. The other warnings with specific details of the attack came in the last two weeks but all the stories have been removed)
From the Jerusalem Post: http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2001/09/17/News/News.34954.html
A US administration official told the paper that it was "quite credible" that the CIA did not heed the Mossad warning: "It has a history of being over-cautious about Israeli information." But the official noted that "if this is true, then the refusal to take it seriously will mean heads will roll."
In a later explanation which was in a now removed story from the BBC the CIA claimed they "misinterpreted" the warmnings and thought they were refferring to the assasination of Gen. Masood in Afganistan. If this is true George Tenet should resign as Director.
(This next warning was from the Mossad a month ago, delivered personaly in Washington. The other warnings with specific details of the attack came in the last two weeks but all the stories have been removed)
From the Jerusalem Post: http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2001/09/17/News/News.34954.html
A US administration official told the paper that it was "quite credible" that the CIA did not heed the Mossad warning: "It has a history of being over-cautious about Israeli information." But the official noted that "if this is true, then the refusal to take it seriously will mean heads will roll."
In a later explanation which was in a now removed story from the BBC the CIA claimed they "misinterpreted" the warmnings and thought they were refferring to the assasination of Gen. Masood in Afganistan. If this is true George Tenet should resign as Director.
DavidK
Reply #53 Monday, September 17, 2001 12:30 AM
Reply #53 Monday, September 17, 2001 12:30 AM
Dick Cheney's response to a related question in an "approved" transcript from NBC:
MR. RUSSERT: The chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee said this is a failure of great dimension in terms of intelligence. Will George Tenet remain as director of the CIA?
VICE PRES. CHENEY: I think George clearly should remain as director of the CIA. I think — I’ve had great confidence in him. I’ve watched him operate now and worked closely with him for the last seven or eight months. I think he and his people do superb work for us. And I think it would be a tragedy if somehow we were to go back now in the search for scapegoats and say that George Tenet or any other official ought to be eliminated at this point. I don’t think you can say that.
Every story I've read regarding the CIA in the last few days has been removed from their respective websites. Quite a feat... I think I should forget this whole question. I'm sorry I brought it up...
MR. RUSSERT: The chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee said this is a failure of great dimension in terms of intelligence. Will George Tenet remain as director of the CIA?
VICE PRES. CHENEY: I think George clearly should remain as director of the CIA. I think — I’ve had great confidence in him. I’ve watched him operate now and worked closely with him for the last seven or eight months. I think he and his people do superb work for us. And I think it would be a tragedy if somehow we were to go back now in the search for scapegoats and say that George Tenet or any other official ought to be eliminated at this point. I don’t think you can say that.
Every story I've read regarding the CIA in the last few days has been removed from their respective websites. Quite a feat... I think I should forget this whole question. I'm sorry I brought it up...
Frogboy
Reply #54 Monday, September 17, 2001 12:20 PM
Reply #54 Monday, September 17, 2001 12:20 PM
Mariuss, as someone who has spent some years studying World War II in detail, let me tell you that your conspiracy comments are out of line. The United States didn't know before hand that Pear Harbor was going to be attacked.
paxx
Reply #55 Monday, September 17, 2001 2:21 PM
Reply #55 Monday, September 17, 2001 2:21 PM
A documented, credible account about the Pearl Harbour myth, compiled by ibiblio.org (a collaboration of the center for the public domain and unc-ch): http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/myths/index.html
A little exerpt from the introduction:
"Few events in the history of the United States have generated as much controversy as the attack on Pearl Harbor.
Rumors abounded during the war, and the release of the Congressional Investigation Report on July 26, 1946, while containing information that would scotch most of them, did not end the speculations. Part of the problem with the Pearl Harbor Attack Investigation Report (PHA for short) was that it was in 40 parts bound in about 23 volumes. Extracting the answers to the bizarre stories that ran rampant was a daunting task for even the most serious researcher.
Today, however, with the aid of computer searching, we can locate information about events and people that have been buried in stacks and university attics for decades. Of course, no one will be able to convince the die-hard Roosevelt-haters that he didn't arrange, or at least allow, the attack, but for those of us who simply want the answers to questions such as "Why didn't the Opana Point radar-contact report reach Adm. Kimmel?", the testimonies of the people involved will illuminate the situation in a most satifactory manner.
Each link below will take you to a document which explains why a particular myth is either wholly false or a distortion of the facts. We will be adding more myths as time permits, but do write us with your favorite if you don't see it on the list. We'll check the record and provide what documents are available on that topic in the timeliest manner possible."
In short, the idea that the Pearl Harbour attack was know is a myth.
A little exerpt from the introduction:
"Few events in the history of the United States have generated as much controversy as the attack on Pearl Harbor.
Rumors abounded during the war, and the release of the Congressional Investigation Report on July 26, 1946, while containing information that would scotch most of them, did not end the speculations. Part of the problem with the Pearl Harbor Attack Investigation Report (PHA for short) was that it was in 40 parts bound in about 23 volumes. Extracting the answers to the bizarre stories that ran rampant was a daunting task for even the most serious researcher.
Today, however, with the aid of computer searching, we can locate information about events and people that have been buried in stacks and university attics for decades. Of course, no one will be able to convince the die-hard Roosevelt-haters that he didn't arrange, or at least allow, the attack, but for those of us who simply want the answers to questions such as "Why didn't the Opana Point radar-contact report reach Adm. Kimmel?", the testimonies of the people involved will illuminate the situation in a most satifactory manner.
Each link below will take you to a document which explains why a particular myth is either wholly false or a distortion of the facts. We will be adding more myths as time permits, but do write us with your favorite if you don't see it on the list. We'll check the record and provide what documents are available on that topic in the timeliest manner possible."
In short, the idea that the Pearl Harbour attack was know is a myth.
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Reply #41 Sunday, September 16, 2001 7:20 AM
WHat words did Bush choose to start Spetember, 11th speech to nation?
"Good evening"?
Or was I desinformed?