America prepares for war...
Friday, September 14, 2001 by Frogboy | Discussion: WinCustomize News
Some people, mostly outside the United States believe that the US response is going to be a single or brief set of air strikes against some designated enemy. That is not the case.There won't just be a strike. The United States is mobilizing for war as we speak. The government just activated the reserves today. There won't be a single strike, it is going to be a prolonged campaign that will likely take years.
Colin Powell yesterday basically set up the way it's going to work. Countries with terrorist training camps in them will be approached to eliminate the problem themselves. If they do not, the US will 1) Take care of the problem for them and 2) Move to replace the government with one more civilized.
I don't think people outside the US have grasped that the United States is not viewing this as a law enforcement problem, it is viewing this as a war. We're not talking some air strikes, we're talking sending in ground troops to either blockade or invade nation states that harbor terrorists.
And the nations that may have US and international invervention (remember, this isn't the US versus the world, this is the world versus a handful of rogue nations who aid and harbor terrorists) would be conquered and have their governments replaced much as what we done with Japan and Germany.
One foreign policy expert yesterday pointed out that the only way to win for the long term is to change the cultures of this countries. To de-fanatacize them. When the US occupied Japan and Germany, it turned them into peaceful countries right down to the culture.
If they had had the Internet in 1941, I doubt anyone here would guess that years later, Japan would have Japan Disney and Mickey Mouse being their favorite cartoon character. Japan Disney does more business than Disney World in Florida. Cocacola is their favorite soft drink. American pop stars are their favorite musicians.
This is what is being discussed. The only way to win this in the long haul is for us to turn these enemies of the United States into us. Us being Western Europeans/Americans.
And before you think such plans absurd or extreme, I merely point to history where it is exactly how the Allies handled World War II. We turned the Japanese and Germans into us. And the people are happier for it.
And again, before someone points out that one cannot turn these fanatics into us. Read up on Nazism. You can't get much more fanatical than the Hitler youth was.
These countries in the Middle east will have to either abolish terrorism on their own or they will face the international community's determination to forever eliminate not just the terrorists but the culture that breeds terrorism. Don't think it can't be done, it's been done before when it was far more daunting to do so.
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TheSkinsFactory
Reply #22 Friday, September 14, 2001 10:21 PM
Reply #22 Friday, September 14, 2001 10:21 PM
It was illegal to start a war with israel, i dont hear you crying about that paxx. They started the confrontation with israel and lost land because of it. Again i say tough sh*t. If you read the history you know so well then you would know that land was part of a treaty agreement between egypt and israel. But i dont need to tell you that cuz you know dont need a history lesson.
noneofurbusiness
Reply #23 Friday, September 14, 2001 10:23 PM
Reply #23 Friday, September 14, 2001 10:23 PM
Let me clarify...[such acts are forbidden] is
Terrorism
Terrorism
Steve Adkins
Reply #24 Friday, September 14, 2001 11:32 PM
Reply #24 Friday, September 14, 2001 11:32 PM
Well, if the terrorists were trying to get our attention they certainly succeeded. Except this time they've bitten off more than they can chew or swallow. Bush has promised a full military intervention...in other words WAR. There is no place for terrorists to hide anymore, there are no holes deep enough to cover their cowardly asses. We have warned them time and again....the time is now passed for diplomacy and they had better bend over, stick their heads in the sand, and kiss their sorry asses goodbye. It may take some time to get all of them, but believe me WE WILL GET THEM.
cruiser-pc
Reply #25 Saturday, September 15, 2001 2:12 AM
Reply #25 Saturday, September 15, 2001 2:12 AM
A scarred, war torn third world, will fight no matter how many bombs are dropped. Life is short under these conditions and regimes, and our enriched long lives offer a resentful divide between the haves and the have-nots.
Democratic governments are only elected for short periods of time and are quick to act. Too quick in some cases.
Will we see a cool reasoned response from world leaders, or an impromptu blind act of fury , where hopes of life are deminished.
A billion people rattled by 15 terrorists. The percentages call for reason and perspective, not more destruction. The US president has great power over so many countries, both culturally and economically and yet so few people have a say in a leader who effectively holds the reins on so many. Yes God bless America, and all those who stand in their way. Life as we know it will change for us all, and not just in the US.
Democratic governments are only elected for short periods of time and are quick to act. Too quick in some cases.
Will we see a cool reasoned response from world leaders, or an impromptu blind act of fury , where hopes of life are deminished.
A billion people rattled by 15 terrorists. The percentages call for reason and perspective, not more destruction. The US president has great power over so many countries, both culturally and economically and yet so few people have a say in a leader who effectively holds the reins on so many. Yes God bless America, and all those who stand in their way. Life as we know it will change for us all, and not just in the US.
_Martin_
Reply #26 Saturday, September 15, 2001 4:19 AM
Reply #26 Saturday, September 15, 2001 4:19 AM
Noneofurbusiness: As I understand it, China are fully in support of the international community's condemnation of this attrocity.
Bit of a surprise, but a welcome one.
Bit of a surprise, but a welcome one.
grayhaze
Reply #27 Saturday, September 15, 2001 8:53 AM
Reply #27 Saturday, September 15, 2001 8:53 AM
I have to admit that I find all this extremely worrying. The idea of forceably destroying a culture other than ours because we believe that it breeds fanaticism and acts of terrorism reminds me a little too much of Hitler's intended plan for the world. Taking away an entire culture and replacing it with our Western beliefs is hardly likely to make everything peachy again. Think of it this way; there are sects of terrorists in the US who can be thought to be a product of Western culture themselves. Sometimes I think that Americans believe they are the example that the rest of the world should follow.
I should point out that I was just as horrified by the events on the 11th as the majority of the world. However, I'm almost as disturbed by some of the 'solutions' which are being put forward.
I should point out that I was just as horrified by the events on the 11th as the majority of the world. However, I'm almost as disturbed by some of the 'solutions' which are being put forward.
misterME
Reply #28 Saturday, September 15, 2001 10:19 AM
Reply #28 Saturday, September 15, 2001 10:19 AM
I'd make several warnings here:
First, we need to be very careful in replacing "non-compliant" gevernments with new ones which better suit our tastes. We've done that before, only to have it backfire on us (Iran/Iraq, various nations in Central America).
And don't think for one minute that the Japanese situation is peachy and resolved. Sure, their culture has adapted and absorbed many of the Western pastimes and such, but their ideals are still very foriegn to Western thinking. And *many* Japanese are far from forgiving for the atrocities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. They're a smart people with *long* memories, and they have the benefit of patience.
And has anyone actually thought about the consequences of what our brilliant, brave, and tear-soaked president (gotta admire a man who can tear up on queue...) has proposed? Fight fire with fire? Sure, so the bombing of targets in Afganistan and the Middle East, and the resultant slaughter of thousand--or even hundreds of thousands--of innocent civilians (even if you don't agree with their culture and beliefs, they're still innocent until *they* pull something like Tuesday), is morally justified now? Isn't that just as bad as what they did? Sure, we'll have the argument "They hit me first," but we don't let our kids get away with that excuse; why should we let our government?
Don't get me wrong. I was off work Tuesday, sitting at home watching TV and saw the events unfold within minutes of them happening. And I was horrified. And the truth is, I don't have the answers. But I think war, the kind of war that's being proposed, is a rash and foolhardy emotional response to the horror, not one with much thought or logic behind it. We do these things, we'll be no better than they, and our lives, liberties and moralities will quickly deteriorate in the process.
First, we need to be very careful in replacing "non-compliant" gevernments with new ones which better suit our tastes. We've done that before, only to have it backfire on us (Iran/Iraq, various nations in Central America).
And don't think for one minute that the Japanese situation is peachy and resolved. Sure, their culture has adapted and absorbed many of the Western pastimes and such, but their ideals are still very foriegn to Western thinking. And *many* Japanese are far from forgiving for the atrocities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. They're a smart people with *long* memories, and they have the benefit of patience.
And has anyone actually thought about the consequences of what our brilliant, brave, and tear-soaked president (gotta admire a man who can tear up on queue...) has proposed? Fight fire with fire? Sure, so the bombing of targets in Afganistan and the Middle East, and the resultant slaughter of thousand--or even hundreds of thousands--of innocent civilians (even if you don't agree with their culture and beliefs, they're still innocent until *they* pull something like Tuesday), is morally justified now? Isn't that just as bad as what they did? Sure, we'll have the argument "They hit me first," but we don't let our kids get away with that excuse; why should we let our government?
Don't get me wrong. I was off work Tuesday, sitting at home watching TV and saw the events unfold within minutes of them happening. And I was horrified. And the truth is, I don't have the answers. But I think war, the kind of war that's being proposed, is a rash and foolhardy emotional response to the horror, not one with much thought or logic behind it. We do these things, we'll be no better than they, and our lives, liberties and moralities will quickly deteriorate in the process.
torm
Reply #30 Saturday, September 15, 2001 11:11 AM
Reply #30 Saturday, September 15, 2001 11:11 AM
I wonder if the US goverment regret having armed and trained these terrorist to fight "The Great Evil Empire"? They did not learn all that by themselfs. They were trained by the CIA to fight the USSR. Well, now USSR is long gone and the US has become these terrorists new "Great Evil Empire"...
Once it was a Just fight for liberty and freedom. Now its terrorism. Its all a matter of perspective.
This will get REAL ugly...
Once it was a Just fight for liberty and freedom. Now its terrorism. Its all a matter of perspective.
This will get REAL ugly...
HeyYou
Reply #31 Saturday, September 15, 2001 2:13 PM
Reply #31 Saturday, September 15, 2001 2:13 PM
does anybody have a link to a newsarticle that says china has joined us? that would be a load off my mind.
Frogboy
Reply #32 Saturday, September 15, 2001 3:18 PM
Reply #32 Saturday, September 15, 2001 3:18 PM
The CIA did not teach people how to hijack and fly civilian airplanes into office buildings, Torm.
DavidK
Reply #33 Saturday, September 15, 2001 3:35 PM
Reply #33 Saturday, September 15, 2001 3:35 PM
Hey You - As far as I know China has not agreed to anything, and only a few weeks ago officially recognized the Taliban as a legitimate government. They have a strong alliance with both Afganistan and Pakistan. The news I saw about China said that they have told our government that they would not support any military action against Afganistan or any other country.
The operation Bush's administration is proposing is a world-wide attack against terrorism. The countries already mentioned as being potential targets are North Korea, Pakistan, Afganistan, Egypt, Sudan, Cuba, Vietnam, and others. Some of these countries are expected to participate with us in our effort to erradicate the terrorist training camps and bases of operations within their territories. Some of them won't agree to willingly allow our military to strike within their borders.
Finding bin Ladden's bases and camps will be easy because our tax dollars built most of them. The United States and the former Soviet Union have been the main supporters, oufitters, suppliers and teachers of most of the world's terrorist organisations in recent history. Thus, we have very good intelligence on the locations of major encampments throughout the world because we actually built them and kept them supplied with weapons and expert training.
At this point, it's probably too late to take a serious and thoughtful look at our own foriegn policy. It's a shame that people in the United States are not involved in or informed about what their trillions of dollars are being spent on.
Don't underestimate what is happening here... we are going to war and it will be a long, painful and bloody process. I will be fought all over the globe in many different countries... including the USA.
The operation Bush's administration is proposing is a world-wide attack against terrorism. The countries already mentioned as being potential targets are North Korea, Pakistan, Afganistan, Egypt, Sudan, Cuba, Vietnam, and others. Some of these countries are expected to participate with us in our effort to erradicate the terrorist training camps and bases of operations within their territories. Some of them won't agree to willingly allow our military to strike within their borders.
Finding bin Ladden's bases and camps will be easy because our tax dollars built most of them. The United States and the former Soviet Union have been the main supporters, oufitters, suppliers and teachers of most of the world's terrorist organisations in recent history. Thus, we have very good intelligence on the locations of major encampments throughout the world because we actually built them and kept them supplied with weapons and expert training.
At this point, it's probably too late to take a serious and thoughtful look at our own foriegn policy. It's a shame that people in the United States are not involved in or informed about what their trillions of dollars are being spent on.
Don't underestimate what is happening here... we are going to war and it will be a long, painful and bloody process. I will be fought all over the globe in many different countries... including the USA.
Enzos Nose
Reply #34 Saturday, September 15, 2001 3:43 PM
Reply #34 Saturday, September 15, 2001 3:43 PM
I'm appalled by all acts of terrorism. I feel deeply for all those effected by terrorism. All the innocent lives lost and the suffering of the families. The waste of life. As an Englishman living in Manchester I've experienced the effects of terrorism before. I can only hope that all those Fireman and Police Officers who have lost colleagues during the tragedy in New York will now stop their funding of terrorism through their continued support of the IRA. Do they now realise that their country as well as the rest of the civilised world has declared war on them too. They have and continue to support and offer safe harbour to terrorists. "The Devil's Advocate" was not just a lousy movie!!!! Support freedom now and banish ALL support to ALL terrorist activity.
DavidK
Reply #35 Saturday, September 15, 2001 3:45 PM
Reply #35 Saturday, September 15, 2001 3:45 PM
Brad, how can you be sure of that? Do you have access to records none of the rest of us do? The CIA did in fact distribute a paper by one of their analysts in 1993 describing exactly this scenario.
Frogboy
Reply #36 Saturday, September 15, 2001 4:09 PM
Reply #36 Saturday, September 15, 2001 4:09 PM
It is up to the person making the assertion that the CIA trained these people.
There is already no shortage of evidence that the terrorists went to Florida, took flying lessons, and went from there. Are you suggesting that the CIA were flight instructors in Florida?
There is already no shortage of evidence that the terrorists went to Florida, took flying lessons, and went from there. Are you suggesting that the CIA were flight instructors in Florida?
craeonics
Reply #37 Saturday, September 15, 2001 7:25 PM
Reply #37 Saturday, September 15, 2001 7:25 PM
craeonics stops biting his tongue for a sec
North Korea, Cuba and Vietnam? Since when do they host terrorists?
/me continues biting his tongue
North Korea, Cuba and Vietnam? Since when do they host terrorists?
/me continues biting his tongue
lukejharrisozemailcomau
Reply #38 Sunday, September 16, 2001 2:32 AM
Reply #38 Sunday, September 16, 2001 2:32 AM
The US has every right in my opinion to retaliate,but in no way has the right to "Americanise" the rogue nations to the point where the world series will actually be a world event.My country (Australia) is extremley close to the largest Islamic country on earth,Indonesia.Australia has a population of 20 million, Indonesia has 210 million.We almost went to war with them in 1999 over their attempted obliteration of the East Timorese,and have no doubt that this will happen if a Christian/Islamic war is to take place.Just alerting you guys in the states that your actions will have far reaching consequnces and this isnt just a US problem anymore.ps I will fight to the death to protect my homeland and way of life,but not for a country which doesnt know where Australia is on the map or to appease my ass kissing government,just like we did in Vietnam
torm
Reply #39 Sunday, September 16, 2001 4:31 AM
Reply #39 Sunday, September 16, 2001 4:31 AM
Dont get me wrong. Im not saying the CIA had anything to do with this. But back in the days of the USSR invasion of Afganistan the USA through CIA armed and traind Taliban (and bin Ladden was fighting with them at the time). They learned them to fight with whatever weapons the had. And they learned the lesson real good. Unfortunately.
The war in Afganistan was a horror and real attrocities were comitted by both sides.
The war in Afganistan was a horror and real attrocities were comitted by both sides.
SSL_tin
Reply #40 Sunday, September 16, 2001 7:10 AM
Reply #40 Sunday, September 16, 2001 7:10 AM
What the?!..
What war are you talking about? Wasn't it the US who continuosly said that the best way to deal with terorists is negotiations, not war?! US tried to convince Russia that it mus NEGOTIATE with chechens -- and now, even when the enemy is not clear -- US PREPARES FOR WAR?!
God...
Maybe US prepares for something, but I can't call it a WAR. When you answer for terrorism by bombing some countries -- it ALSO IS THE TERRORISM.
Therefore, America prepares for terrorism, not war.
What war are you talking about? Wasn't it the US who continuosly said that the best way to deal with terorists is negotiations, not war?! US tried to convince Russia that it mus NEGOTIATE with chechens -- and now, even when the enemy is not clear -- US PREPARES FOR WAR?!
God...
Maybe US prepares for something, but I can't call it a WAR. When you answer for terrorism by bombing some countries -- it ALSO IS THE TERRORISM.
Therefore, America prepares for terrorism, not war.
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Reply #21 Friday, September 14, 2001 10:21 PM
Destroy the terrorist camps quickly. Being Islam I know such actions are forbidden (and are sinful)and some crack-head invented fundamentalism. This will also be a good thing to the religion. Less terrorism means less death and that is better. Thou shall not kill is the same in the Torah, Bible, and Koran. Also be weary of Saddam and China. As I recall he got fiber-optic communication from China. So, the Chinese and Iraqis have some ties.