Is skinning a community or a market?
Frogblog: February 2008
Monday, February 11, 2008 by Frogboy | Discussion: WinCustomize News
When skinning first got started, there was a kind of unspoken understanding between the people who made software and the people who used the software. There would be a symbiotic relationship between 3 groups. The first group, the developers, would create software to customize the look and feel of your applications and desktop. The second group, the skinners, would create the content for these programs. And the third group, the users, would work with the first two groups to help test and ensure the software worked fine by giving detailed reports on betas and even releases to help perfect the program in general. In return, the software was far far cheaper than software in other markets. Thus was borne the "skinning community".
Even into 2008, where a typical new game is $50 to $70 and the typical utility software is $50 to $70, the most popular desktop enhancement software programs remain $20 or less. In fact, Object Desktop, an entire collection of desktop enhancements, is only $50. To put it in collection, WinRar, which is most commonly (let's be honest here) used to compress pirated software, is about $40 all by itself.
As skinning has become more mainstream, the relationship between the three parties has evolved. Increasingly, the content creation is shouldered by fewer and fewer people. We created the Master Skinning program as an effort (a successful one) to encourage skinners with high degrees of talent to continue sharing their creations. The net result is that content is starting to cost money because so few new users are creating it (even for relatively simple things). Similarly, users are much less inclined to participate in open beta programs. Look at the CursorFX release. There's multiple posts complaining in the vaguest terms that it doesn't work on their systems. It works here just fine. Nearly everyone here is running CursorFX on XP or Vista without incident. We had an open beta but we received very few reports on it.
The reality is, while the skinning "community" still exists, it is now a small sub-section of the "skinning market" which is made up of traditional consumers who simply expect (with good reason) to pay money in exchange for a program and content that just works. There's nothing wrong with that. That's how every other market works. But those markets don't support products that are $10 to $20. Those products are $50 to $70. The only reason WindowBlinds isn't already a $40 program is because of the skinners and that it still gets significant help from the community in testing new beta versions (though drastically less than in the old days when, ironically, it had far fewer users).
Skinning is continuing to evolve. It's evolving increasingly into a more traditional consumer-oriented market. Stardock, I suspect, will have to adapt with some system that allows users who are contributing time and effort to the community to get credits which lets them buy the software at a less expensive price while traditional consumers pay the un-subsidized rate for the products.
I've written an article that goes into more detail. Click the link below to check it out.
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Reply #162 Thursday, February 14, 2008 8:07 PM
Skinning Vista is a challenge. In time there will be more skins but there won't be many good ones for free. There will be alot but how good they are depends on the user.
With the time and patience needed to skin Vista there will be a lull in Vista skins, that's why it is important to encourage people to at least give it a try.
Reply #163 Thursday, February 14, 2008 8:08 PM
The amount of contribution is inversely proportional to the amount of bollocks - simple maths... 
Reply #164 Thursday, February 14, 2008 8:14 PM
Perhaps its time to rebrand and remarket the whole thing. A two way split is inevitable at this point: those who just want to make their desktop look nice and get the content to do it, and those who are interested in more serious customization including skinning.
At the first stage, you would have MyColors at a low price point. Perhaps coming with a basic set of skins which the user then can add to at an additional cost. There are no programs to install, and the skins are professionally made and offer complete desktop customization. I suspect the bulk of users would be happy with that.
Then at the next stage you could have MyColors Professional, which can not only do the above, but would include downloadable programs currently in Object Desktop for the serious customizer.
You have both satisfied there - the user who just wants 'stuff' and no messing, and the skinner who likes to mess...
Now I like that. Streamlined product choice. Both beneficial to the maker and the customer. Both practical and appealing. Great suggestion, Fuzzy
Reply #165 Thursday, February 14, 2008 8:46 PM
If you take the Neowin poll on OS choice and useage, you will see that there has been a very large uptake on Vista, which now exceeds XP quite substancially.
If you couple the limited choice that Vista users face together with the Vista problems that Frogboy mentioned earlier today, in this or another thread, you are loooking at quite a difficult situation.
Reply #166 Thursday, February 14, 2008 10:26 PM
By the same token if one is that worried that much about 20$ and the number of higher quality skins available for their "investement" then perhaps it would behoove them to investigate beforehand. Only takes a second.Secondly, Vista is still comparitively new, no one is forced into using it, if customization is of great importance to someone they have to the choice to use XP [dual boot even]. Vista skins will take time to infiltrate the scene as any new product does. Btw, there are more new Vista skins in the works.
3. Your proposition for Master skinners equates to me telling you to work 'x' amount additional hours at your profession for the same amount of pay. It is unrealistic and flawed and I'm positive you would laugh at the proposal if reversed.
4. Anyone with WB and a free copy of SKS can just as easily take up skinning to suit their needs, It's not rocket science but extremely time consuming.
5. I don't think many people have any idea how much work\man hours go into making a high quality Xp and Vista Windowblind.
6. The Master skinner's have already paid their dues to the community as far as free work, in most cases years and years of contributing quality free skins. Even as a Master skinner, compared to the hours worked, I make very little money. None of us is getting rich from this.
Now, you want more? vStyler rolls eyes.
I mean how much do think you should get for 20 bucks??
What i read in your posts is I want, I want, I want. Your asking far too much for what your paying. Period.
It's time for people to stop using their entitlement calculators for their math.
Reply #167 Friday, February 15, 2008 12:00 AM
Many of the Master skins are not Vista capable yet, so griping that they should be free because theres few Vista skins is kind of a moot point.
Lets put it this way. From what I see the majority did NOT switch to Vista out of necessity (XP works just fine), most switched to Vista to be at the fore front of technology. With that you SHOULD expect a delay of implementation/support,as being new and it takes time for the Sub markets to catch up. Popularity is the driving factor, as Vista gains in popularity more things will be added to its goody bag. The more popular it is, the faster the extras will be added.
If you went out and bought a brand new gadget example: a new cell phone just released, it would be fool hardy and naive to grab it up from the MFG's site the day its released then run to all the stores acting confused and griping that they don't have all the accessories in stock.
For $20. You get a Great Program with a fairly decent amount of skins provided. (not to mention the tons of free ones provided by the non commissioned skinning community.)
I think Fuzzys idea on multiple package's would be the way to go. IMO there should be 3 packages.
The skinners package: For the Contributing Artists of the skinning community. Price should possibly be pro rated on their contribution to the community etc. The more they contribute the price drops etc. This would offer Skinners a $ break and offer incentive for new skinners to join the community as well as possibly build more skins to be released. Maybe based on their WC level, Masters at the top get the best pricing.
The end user package: Set up for the end user who wants to click a button and see a new desk top , and is not interested in how or why it works.Price should be at a fair market value.
The Power users package: For those who want the skin building/tweaking ability, but aren't in to contributing to the community by help on forums or contributing skins etc. Price should be some what higher than the end user, as they will require the Building programs and extras, not to mention probably be requiring more support and help with working with the software.
IMO I see this as viable Packaging pricing for bringing skinning in to main stream.
Reply #168 Friday, February 15, 2008 2:10 AM
You are still looking at it from the point of view of someone who is in the know and in the community. Someone who understands it takes time to produce skins, understands that some people think they should be able to make a living off of it, understand that vista is new and WB 6 is new... Joe Blow user doesn't know, doesn't care, and doesn't want to know... He just wants it to work. PERIOD. All the other arguments are BS.
As for the MasterSkinner (MS) thing well like I said SD, and MS won't like it and it is probably not viable but it is the only way that SD can ensure that the heavy lifting is continued to be done by the community (as Brad likes to put it). I mean MS are people too. If they put a lot of time into something they rather get paid for it so it is only natural that >50% of new skins are for pay only... As for my job you don't want to know the BS I hear. In fact there is a rabid bitch going around the country, I think she is running for office or something, who wants to double my work and cut my pay by 75%... And most of the public supports her so you ain't getting much sympathy from me...
Reply #169 Friday, February 15, 2008 3:08 AM
I, as the consumer, know WB is useless to me unless I can get a large and varied set of high quality skins. I want skins that make use of the latest wiz bang features of WB and of course since I shelled out money I don't want to have to shell out more money to make use of he program I just bought. To brad this makes me an entitled whiny costumer (or even worse internet user who expects everything to be free on the net) and he has on more than one occasion shown his disdain for my kind of people...
Part B is buying the skins, part A is buying the software. If he cares about part B as you suggest, than he must care about part A or part B can never happen.
Reply #170 Friday, February 15, 2008 5:58 AM
It does..Work.
You talk about Joe Blow as if they don't know how to get out of bed in the morning let alone make educated decisions on purchases.. thats his\your problem. Do a little research.
and again.. you or Joe Blow consumer has the right to ask for only so much for 20 bucks. Being uneducated about a product is not an excuse.
Reply #171 Friday, February 15, 2008 6:17 AM
Do you have any idea how many Nintendo and Playstation games I have that I played once and then never touched again because they sucked?
counting.............
28! All of which I paid at least $ 50.00 for.
How's that for a sucker?
2 bottles of really cheap wine will get you through through a Friday night and you piss that away in the morning.
Point being... It baffles me as to why people think they deserve so much for $ 20.00.
Reply #172 Friday, February 15, 2008 7:45 AM
Last I checked you have paid me diddly-squat. [it's a mathematical term that equates to zero or null].
If you WERE to pay a skinner [on commission] to create a WB skin FOR YOU it would cost somewhere around a $1000, or worse....so even the Master/Premium skins are a pretty darn good price....yes, volume does that...
Lets do some math:
I am user Joe Blow, and just bought WB6 to go along with my fancy shmancy vista PC... I go on WC and look for WB skins and I see I can filter out the skins that will best use my investment (i.e. are WB6 and Vista ready).. Cool, I get 21 skins that meet those criteria. But wait a second out of 21 skins 1/3 (seven) I have to pay for (Master Skins). And as for the others gour are made by the newly formed SD design studio because well SD has realized there are not alot of quality skins beign produced any more and if they want to keep selling they need to put out free quality skins. So that leaves 10 FREE skins submitted by users (less than 50%). So where are the thousands of high quality skins for free on this site for WB6 and vista users (i.e. the guy who just bought the latest and greates WB and windows)???
Oh for crying out loud...I still use MY OWN skins...made years before WB6 OR XP, let alone Vista was even dreamed of....and the y work just fine [for me]...though the proviso is...I use Litestep.
It's utter bull if you think you can on ly use 10 skins. THEY ALL WORK. [some better than others...but again, if you can't find one you like the TOOLS ARE THERE...do it, and no, you do NOT need a Medical Degree to practise ...so that analogy is shot...
Reply #173 Friday, February 15, 2008 7:54 AM
I'm sorry...but that's not ever going to happen...not in a real world.
Masters already attained the right/opportunity to submit skins at Premium rates [to be purchased] because they had already provided the public with substantial 'free' content. These skinners are unindentured private individuals who deserve the right to determine what and how their works are offered to the public, be it all 'free' or all 'Premium' or a mix. They are not contracted to Stardock or Wincustomize, and nor should they be, as this is specifically [amongst other things] what is meant by the term 'Community Site'...
Reply #174 Friday, February 15, 2008 8:19 AM
Here, here! Probably should be inserted in all threads of this type. BTW, is "unindentured" really a word?
Reply #175 Friday, February 15, 2008 8:33 AM
It is, now...
Reply #178 Friday, February 15, 2008 10:28 AM
Perhaps there's no reason why I should know, but it seems like you're announcing a failure to meet some needs such as useful community based testing, that I suspect many of us didn't know weren't being met. So statements taken from the linked thread like the one below are something of a surprise to those of us who rely on the forums for our news:-
"There will be no ObjectBar 3. It's too expensive to develop and there's too little help from the community to justify the effort versus the revenue it generates. DesktopX barely is surviving and only because Stardock uses it so heavily internally. DeskScapes has been delayed because even though it's in beta, the reports we get are so sketchy and few in number that we don't dare make a general release of it."
Acknowledging other routes for support exist like the newsgroups, are there areas in which had the forum based community been alerted earlier to some of these needs, could have been less critical do you think - or was it always going to be beyond something that could have been responded to usefully regardless of goodwill/effort?
I had thought DesktopX to have been one of the core programs that Stardock took pride in, are there any other programs that you would have seen as core a year ago, that now feel threatened and which community members could offer further support to, if given a specific invitation/avenue to do so?
Reply #179 Friday, February 15, 2008 10:35 AM
It's extremely difficult to be part of the solution to a problem if you didn't know that a problem was there.
Reply #180 Saturday, February 16, 2008 12:44 PM
Alternate Setting, I like your style of conversation.
It's extremely difficult to be part of the solution to a problem if you didn't know that a problem was there.
Hehe, well there's a barrowload of it here if anybody's interested in attacking the subject directly...
Response to Skinning, The Market etc
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Reply #161 Thursday, February 14, 2008 7:15 PM
Where's the beef?
O.k. Jaffo,
Lets do some math:
I am user Joe Blow, and just bought WB6 to go along with my fancy shmancy vista PC... I go on WC and look for WB skins and I see I can filter out the skins that will best use my investment (i.e. are WB6 and Vista ready).. Cool, I get 21 skins that meet those criteria. But wait a second out of 21 skins 1/3 (seven) I have to pay for (Master Skins). And as for the others gour are made by the newly formed SD design studio because well SD has realized there are not alot of quality skins beign produced any more and if they want to keep selling they need to put out free quality skins. So that leaves 10 FREE skins submitted by users (less than 50%). So where are the thousands of high quality skins for free on this site for WB6 and vista users (i.e. the guy who just bought the latest and greates WB and windows)???
So the user has a choice of 10 free skins and he better hope he likes one of them if he wants to get the most out of his investment. Otherwise, he can pay or get an older skin that may or may not work and will certainly not have all the latest features that he paid for...
There is the beef. Before the ratio was ~99.1%:0.1% for free vs. paid so just aboput naybody could fins something they liked. And of course the current ratio is going to continue to worsen.
There is a real easy solution to the problem but neither SD nor the skinners will like it and in the end it may not be viable: change the master skinner program to include productivity/quality ratios.
The new program would req. master skinners to maintain a 1:2 or 1:3 paid/master skin:free ratio to guarantee a high supply of free skins. It would also req. the free skins to be perform at a certain level compared to the paid ones. For exmaple if skinner A's master skins on average have a 4.5 rating then his free skins need to maintain a 4.0 star rating at the minimum to ensure that they are not putting out crap to keep up ratios and saving the good stuff for the paid skins. If they fall of the ratio then they can't sell again until the ratio is met.