Is skinning a community or a market?
Frogblog: February 2008
Monday, February 11, 2008 by Frogboy | Discussion: WinCustomize News
When skinning first got started, there was a kind of unspoken understanding between the people who made software and the people who used the software. There would be a symbiotic relationship between 3 groups. The first group, the developers, would create software to customize the look and feel of your applications and desktop. The second group, the skinners, would create the content for these programs. And the third group, the users, would work with the first two groups to help test and ensure the software worked fine by giving detailed reports on betas and even releases to help perfect the program in general. In return, the software was far far cheaper than software in other markets. Thus was borne the "skinning community".
Even into 2008, where a typical new game is $50 to $70 and the typical utility software is $50 to $70, the most popular desktop enhancement software programs remain $20 or less. In fact, Object Desktop, an entire collection of desktop enhancements, is only $50. To put it in collection, WinRar, which is most commonly (let's be honest here) used to compress pirated software, is about $40 all by itself.
As skinning has become more mainstream, the relationship between the three parties has evolved. Increasingly, the content creation is shouldered by fewer and fewer people. We created the Master Skinning program as an effort (a successful one) to encourage skinners with high degrees of talent to continue sharing their creations. The net result is that content is starting to cost money because so few new users are creating it (even for relatively simple things). Similarly, users are much less inclined to participate in open beta programs. Look at the CursorFX release. There's multiple posts complaining in the vaguest terms that it doesn't work on their systems. It works here just fine. Nearly everyone here is running CursorFX on XP or Vista without incident. We had an open beta but we received very few reports on it.
The reality is, while the skinning "community" still exists, it is now a small sub-section of the "skinning market" which is made up of traditional consumers who simply expect (with good reason) to pay money in exchange for a program and content that just works. There's nothing wrong with that. That's how every other market works. But those markets don't support products that are $10 to $20. Those products are $50 to $70. The only reason WindowBlinds isn't already a $40 program is because of the skinners and that it still gets significant help from the community in testing new beta versions (though drastically less than in the old days when, ironically, it had far fewer users).
Skinning is continuing to evolve. It's evolving increasingly into a more traditional consumer-oriented market. Stardock, I suspect, will have to adapt with some system that allows users who are contributing time and effort to the community to get credits which lets them buy the software at a less expensive price while traditional consumers pay the un-subsidized rate for the products.
I've written an article that goes into more detail. Click the link below to check it out.
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Reply #142 Thursday, February 14, 2008 1:32 AM
I would not 'count my chickens' on that one.
Say, Stardock went the 'commercial route' e.g vastly slimmed down number of apps available, widespread MyColors availability made by pro skinners etc, ask yourself a question. Would they really need Wincustomize? An add-on to their Stardock site would do just as well.
I love all the sentiment about 'the community' but lets face facts. Times have changed. I love this place and the community as much as anyone else but skinners are in decline and Stardock want to go after mainstream customers. There is a huge market out there for people who just want to push a button and make their desktop look great. They don't want to skin or fiddle about with everything. This is a huge potential WORLDWIDE market. If guided in the right direction and marketed well Stardock could see a huge and I mean a huge income from this area however a big move in this direction is going to cost a lot of time, effort and money.
If Stardock made a successful foray into the MyColors public market the people here at Wincustomize would be very much a small part of the total customer base. You may ask "Well, where would the next generation of skinners come from to build the pro MyColors skins when the current guys drop out for whatever reason?" Again don't kid yourself on that one. There are many good graphics artists out there who know their trade and could quite quickly turn their hand to building all the stuff that Stardock would want.
Yep, I hear Zubaz's point about the support that this site offers but again, don't kid yourself. This area could quite easily be covered by Stardock without any additional resources. Many companies go through this and just juggle with resources and costs. Yep, there maybe a longer wait to get your problem sorted but hell that's the norm with most customer services nowadays.
Whatever Stardock do, it should be for one reason and one reason alone. Put all the histrionics and sentiment to one side and just do "What is right for Stardock given the changing nature of their business".
I hope there is a place for the Wincustomize "community" in the Stardock future but changing tides, a huge untapped market, aspirations, ambition and need for fullfilment cannot be denied.
I can see why Frogboy is having sleepless nights with the decisions he has to make, but whatever he decides I truly wish him and Stardock the very best on their journey to greater and better things...........hoping they leave sentiment and histrionics to one side........and do whats right for Stardock and Stardock alone.
Reply #143 Thursday, February 14, 2008 1:34 AM
I do not think and was not trying to imply that WC is solely a business asset.
In fact I think it is both.
Now I think my statement,
"They try and play it like it a "community" site not a Stardock site"
is what is getting you all riled up so let me explain.
I think Stardock often tries to portray this as ONLY a community site, and they paint the picture that they do it entirely out of the kindness of their hearts.
I am not doubting the kindness of their hearts, but the realist/cynic in me tells me their is more to it than that. And what I was trying to say was, even if they went all eric cartman and said "screw you guys, I'm going home", the reality is that the business side of things will make sure this site remains.
Reply #144 Thursday, February 14, 2008 1:42 AM
Still I am not sure how much WC is really costing them now, above and beyond the Stardock website upkeep costs they already pay. If it really is a massive expense, you may very well be right. But I still think it will take a long time for that transition to occur.
Reply #145 Thursday, February 14, 2008 3:48 AM
Jeffery,
Don't waste your breath. I've been saying the same thing for years (look up many of my old posts) and there is always a number of fan... I mean logical, rational people, with lots of good data to backup their claims saying it isn't... Like I said it is a catch 22 and it sucks for SD but a FREE, fully functioning WC is part of the cost of doing business for them. Unless of course they only want commercial (nvidia, nfl, nintendo, etc...) accounts... In which case they can have a very stable revenue stream for a while but no real growth potential...
Reply #146 Thursday, February 14, 2008 3:53 AM
I do not think and was not trying to imply that WC is solely a business asset.
In fact I think it is both.
Now I think my statement,
"They try and play it like it a "community" site not a Stardock site"
is what is getting you all riled up so let me explain.
I think Stardock often tries to portray this as ONLY a community site, and they paint the picture that they do it entirely out of the kindness of their hearts.
I am not doubting the kindness of their hearts, but the realist/cynic in me tells me their is more to it than that. And what I was trying to say was, even if they went all eric cartman and said "screw you guys, I'm going home", the reality is that the business side of things will make sure this site remains.
Man are we on the same wavelength... Except for the kindness of their heart bit... I've seen way to many statements from Brad and co deriding costumers to beleive they give a real damn about costumers who put down money and then expect service... Yeah if you pay, shut up, and praise them great. If you make skins and buy products you are o.k. too.. BUT god forbid you pay and expect high quality skins for free to make use of their program then you are an entitled whiner who is driving costs up by not beta testing/QAing software for free and not producing any skins...
Reply #147 Thursday, February 14, 2008 5:39 AM
We do not know any of the real cost structure of SD or WC. We do not know the number of subscribers, skinners, freeloaders, personal wages allocated to WC, accounting set up of WC/SD vis-a vis subscriptions, etc. Without a P&L statement and a balance sheet, we all just assume things or shoot in the dark. Although it might prove interesting entertainment for those in SD that do know the facts, it is useless from the users point of view. I always feel that I am just getting set up for the next round of price increases, subscription drives, what have you.
Reply #148 Thursday, February 14, 2008 6:10 AM
You would then be very surprised to hear that it is not uncommon to get Brad's ear on chat/ email to discuss whatever silly issue you have. My past experiences have assured me that he really does care ALOT! Especially to endure my petty bullshit.
Many conversations around here get duplicated over and over because new people enter the ring and raise the same issues over and over. It will always be this way until the member base starts to drop off. As things grow it will only become more common.
Reply #149 Thursday, February 14, 2008 6:37 AM
Right you are!
Reply #150 Thursday, February 14, 2008 7:11 AM
Oh don't get me wrong: I am not saying Brad is not a nice guy or caring or what not as a person. But the fact that he will listen to you about your dead goldfish (sorry for the sarcasm) does not mean he cares about customers. He has made many post moaning about freeloaders, entitled costumers, whiners.... He might help me out if I was stranded on the side of the road because he is a nice huy but I don't believe for a second he cares if I think WB is a good or bad value based on the number of free "master level" skins...
Reply #151 Thursday, February 14, 2008 7:24 AM
Of course he cares, even if for no other reason than he wants you to buy it. He knows you will not do so if your do not perceive value.
Reply #152 Thursday, February 14, 2008 7:55 AM
You DO get 'high quality skins for free'. It's what the skinners provide/upload here on Wincustomize and all the other skinning sites.
Where's the beef?
As with all merchandise/art/craft/creativity there is scope for free, economical, pricey and/or exorbitant product. The world is a big place...and sufficiently diverse that catering for all means some may be commercial [premium] and some may be freely accessible.
Were that not the case we'd all rush off to the Louvre and snap up that 'free' Mona, wouldn't we?....
...or perhaps some silly bint with a smirk isn't what you're looking for, free or not.
As with all artwork it isn't necessarily going to appeal to everyone....which brings up that old argument...and the reason many skinners started out.... if you can't find something you like...then DIY ....
Reply #153 Thursday, February 14, 2008 11:15 AM
Your totally wrong, not only is he a good guy but without having to go into detail I know for a fact he happens to care a lot about providing Master quality skins for WB to the community.
Reply #154 Thursday, February 14, 2008 11:56 AM
How the heck did this conversation get into whether Stardock should have WinCustomize or not.
The real bottom line issue here is about software pricing. For years, the community took co-responsibility for the quality of the software in working closely with developers (not just Stardock but the makers of eFX, Hoverdesk, Litestep, etc.).
But since skinning has gone mainstream, the bulk of the users view it as a traditional producer/consumer relationship. And that is fine. But the reality is that the software prices were predicated on the older model - that the cost of the software as less because the community was providing content and helping with QA.
The result is that already things have begun to adapt to that. Master skins are one example. If the latest wave of consumers can't help produce the content, that's okay. But we'll have to encourage the existing top skinners to keep skinning even after they may not be quite as interested as they were when it was "new and cool".
Similarly, if the responsibility for QA is going to be wholly on the developer -- like it is in most markets -- that's fine too but it does mean that the price of the software will go up.
There's no such thing as a fre lunch. What most users don't realize is how lucky they were that skinners and community members were doing so much of the heavy lifting. It was those contributing members who were subsidizing the price of the software and content. But over time, the skinning community is much much smaller than the "skinning market" which simply treats skinning like any consumer market - they pay for X and get Y in return with it very spelled out.
As to those who don't think Stardock is helping, I think some people need to look at the most popular skins. At the rate things are going, in 2 months the majority of most popular top 10 skins will be made for and paid for by Stardock and provided for free.
Reply #155 Thursday, February 14, 2008 12:28 PM
That was me meandering way the heck off topic. Merely was trying to demonstrate (albeit poorly) the cost/benefit relationship of community participation.
Listen, it's obvious Brad cares or we wouldn't see these posts. There would be autocratic decisions such as prices increasing and a take it or leave it attitude.
Sounds like the price increase is inevitable but, with the MyColors option available maybe this will clear up some of these market issues. Obviously, if all you're interested in is applying and not actually making themes then WindowBlinds perhaps isn't the best choice for you.
I for one find the community invigorating, especially when new users appear so full of excitement from finding and making their first creations. Also, I enjoy getting both negative and positive "constructive" feedback.
Sadly that has diminished not only at WC but, throughout the community as a whole. It's amazing how negative feedback can be a bigger motivator than positive.
Reply #156 Thursday, February 14, 2008 1:58 PM
I'll more than likely be skinning to the grave.. perhaps beyond.
Definately more appealing than sitting in traffic, then a cubicle, then traffic..again...and really, how many people have the opportunity to work in their valentines day boxers?
Really I encourage anyone with talent and vision to think about taking it up more seriously. I've said and will keep saying there is a huge commercial market that can be opened up for the taking and most likely the problem is going to be not enough quality skinners to take up the slack.
Reply #157 Thursday, February 14, 2008 2:16 PM
Perhaps its time to rebrand and remarket the whole thing. A two way split is inevitable at this point: those who just want to make their desktop look nice and get the content to do it, and those who are interested in more serious customization including skinning.
At the first stage, you would have MyColors at a low price point. Perhaps coming with a basic set of skins which the user then can add to at an additional cost. There are no programs to install, and the skins are professionally made and offer complete desktop customization. I suspect the bulk of users would be happy with that.
Then at the next stage you could have MyColors Professional, which can not only do the above, but would include downloadable programs currently in Object Desktop for the serious customizer.
You have both satisfied there - the user who just wants 'stuff' and no messing, and the skinner who likes to mess...
Reply #159 Thursday, February 14, 2008 6:39 PM
Now that is the most ridiculousargument I always hear... Its like saying: "You don't like the state of healthcare in this country then become a doctor yourself" or "you don't like windows well write your own OS"... If I wanted/could do it myslef then I wouldn't be paying you guys, right? But if I pay you guys it is because I want you to do it for me...
Reply #160 Thursday, February 14, 2008 6:48 PM
No he doesn't because simply buying WB is not enough for me as the consumer or for him as the producer. Brad knows the real money is in selling skins: people will get tired of skins they have and want new ones, or new skins will come out and people will want those but someone can buy WB w/ subscription and really never need to buy again for a few years until the program siginificantly changes... (In other words he wants to become gillete and make money on the razors (skins), because that is where the money is, not in the handle (WB)...)
I, as the consumer, know WB is useless to me unless I can get a large and varied set of high quality skins. I want skins that make use of the latest wiz bang features of WB and of course since I shelled out money I don't want to have to shell out more money to make use of he program I just bought. To brad this makes me an entitled whiny costumer (or even worse internet user who expects everything to be free on the net) and he has on more than one occasion shown his disdain for my kind of people...
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Reply #141 Thursday, February 14, 2008 1:01 AM
It would seem a few are trying to push us to believe SD only looks at us as an asset, instead of as friend's. From what I remember, WC for a long time cost more than it brought in on it's own. Brad and the SD staff could have easily dropped WC and built a streamlined skin/help page's at Stardock.com ,like winamp and others have done, but instead decided to keep WC going. why? only they could tell.
IMO if SD "only" looked at us like "assets to be harvested" they would have done away with WC and gone the route most company's have.