Yep. 

You are under the delusion that the producer/customer arrangement is one in which the customer is the superior and the producer the inferior.  This is a hold over from the days of purchasing things at retail where the value the retailer brought came in how they treated the customer.

A customer/producer arrangement is a relationsihop of equals. A trade of money for goods and/or services.  We sell X, you decide whether X is worth it to you or not.  If you don't feel it's worth it to you, you choose not to buy.

Your problem is that you buy X and expect X + Y which was never promised to you. You simply feel entitled to it, shadowlord.

Now, I happen to like being part of a community more so than simply serving a market. I'm willing to make less if I'm provoding something for a community that I feel part of. When it starts to become just another market, I'll adjust to that too.

I think the future will have both. People in the community will pay X and people who are just consumers will pay X + Y. Where a community member is someone who, through their deeds, gets discounts.  Someone with apprentice access on WC for instance, might get a 20% discount on a higher produced product.  Because they were part of the community, htye'd know how to make use of their various products.

 

One thing I've been wondering is since the creation of MyColors (which appears to be targeting primarily users) was it not inevitable that more QA staff would be needed? The discounts make sense and IMO are deserved. From one perspective is Stardock not reducing the costs associated with development of another program by the "active" participation of loyal users?



I'm pretty sure they still do.

There are a lot of alternative widget engines making this area more competitive. Brad's addressed in other article's the division or make up of the average DX user. You have users, skinners, then scripters.

Some scripters/developers move on to other development platforms. Many users want widgets that integrate with WB. Last I heard WB integration was in the works and I think it will kick ass when it is implemented.

Personally I'd like to see a plugin integrating ObjectDock with DesktopX. Any plugin developers out there?

Are you actually saying that being an internet based software producer makes you superior to a retail provider in the aspects of customer service and value?
Our money is the same shade of green regardless of it's delivery method.
Stardock has always treated ME well, but has always given the appearance that strong complainers are more often shown the door. That may be in appearances only but none the less, when you make statements like that you are driving nails in your customer base coffin!

ok... here are a few of my thoughts...

1. Initial Price/Cost
I dont care about the cost of the software... whether it be $1... or $.01... or $1,500.00. It all comes down to how important its use is to me and how well it serves its function.

Now from best I can tell, SD products serve their overall function pretty well even with a few slight glitches and bugs.

So whether the product is $20, or $39.95, or $49.95... I would be glad to pay that providing it serves the purpose I intend to use it for well enough.


2. Master Skins/Themes/Suites[b/]
I completely understand and support this concept as it would be up to me whether or not I liked something enough to pay for it and besides.. the costs of them arent that much and its a nice incentive for those who do invest the time and effort to keep up the great work one would think.

So long as there would continue to be places such as WC where I could still have plenty of new and old freebies to choose from as well Im happy.

What troubles me is the thought of a fully commercial centered monopoly on it all where only the select few are able to make skins and it becomes a guarded business secret on how to do so because skinning becomes more of a business opportunity to score some cash rather than something fun to do for the sake of having a creative outlet.
[b]Which by the way... I am VERY interested in creating full suites as a creative outlet if I could just figure out where to start. ie: Which SD software would I need to create full suites??? everything??? one of em??? just a select few??? Also which programming languages would I need to brush up on if any??? (I have had traing in many different languages in college including visual basic, vbscript, java, and c/c++- Just havent used them is so long. Also, I read bits and pieces in this thread referring to photoshop, another area I was trained in and do have but again... just a bit rusty and would need to brush up on.)

3. Subscriptions and Renewals
My only bone with this is the ratio of the initial cost of software vs. the price of the renewals... BUT... so long as im good to continue to use the software indefinitely (or at least awhile) without renewal... and/or "pick n choose" when I renew... Im happy.

4. Additional Software
Now this is where the thing about dropping less popular software comes into play. However unpopular a software may be, obviously it had or continues to have some valid use somewhere. Because of this it is my hope that if and when these less popular titles get dropped, they become open source for the community at large that uses them to continue their development or at least continue to be offered up for download as stable FINAL versions. It really sucks when a good piece of software just up and vanishes.

On a side note... In looking over the SD site and noticing all the software... I have become curious as to why several of them havent been placed together in a single wrapper as opposed to continuing to be different programs. ie: bootskins and login studio... Matter a factly I dont understand why there isnt an all in one wrapper for the entire SD desktop enhancement lineup being offered for a flat rate price. But then again ike I said... Im new to all this so.

On a final note... Taking a cue from a popular online gaming franchise... How cool would it be to have a stardock SDK that enabled certain skilled and motivated users to develop and tweak to their stardock software (including fixing certain bugs) under a specific liscense agreement??

All that said... At risk of sounding like a complete moron here... (Please keep in mind that Im new to all this.) my initial concerns when I read this post were as follows...

1. The prospect of being able to create themes and such being locked down in favor of only charging for already made up "premiums" and thus slamming the door on people such as myself who would like to join in and start creating.

2. Perfectly good software being thrashed back and dropped never to be seen again in favor of only offering the big money makers.

3. Software that would be rendered useless the first time I didnt renew a subscription via a fee that is pretty close to the cost that I already paid to own the software.

Oh and lastly...

Beta Testing
There have already been so many fantastic ideas on this posted in this thread but here is my 2 cents to build upon them...

A simple web graphic for a sig to denote that you a a beta tester... EXTREAMLY SIMPLE I know but you would be surprised how effective something like this can be... Perhaps spin it as more of a privilege to become a beta tester but spell out in clear terms as to whats expected of you if you wish to participate in such a program... offer little incentives like maybe a couple "super secret"-"unreleased" slick themes or something with a beta release to help further promote the idea that beta testing is a privilege.. a chance to try the latest releases and help shape the future of the software as opposed to "just some buggy software that was released prematurely."

Have it as an optional program to sign up for in order to participate... The number of people bug reporting on beta software may decline somewhat, but the quality of the reports would go up. In addition, it would be easier on the developers since they wouldnt be wasting time (and money) while getting headaches sorting through all the less than helpful reports. In addition... the skinners and good folks doing their parts on reporting bugs wouldnt be so likely to just get frustrated and give up on reporting because the issues they do report would have a greater odds of actually getting noticed and fixed.

Well anyways.. Thank you all who have taken the time to read all my ramblings here. Hopefully soon I will be able to start popping out some content for you all to enjoy.

Leo shakes his head in disbelief. Did you really mean that?

Damn, I knew I should have been taking notes. This thread (post) probably qualifies as and economics/business 101 course. I can sure use the credit hrs.   

The only way it could become some sort of guarded secret is if Stardock made SkinStudio some overly exorbitant price. Doubtful that will happen. As for skinning the best way to do it is to do it. There is a ton of support in the forums.

If there was going to be a so called monopoly on content then I think we would have seen it. When you look at the new releases there is still a huge multiple of free versus commercial skins; yet, people still bitch about the master's releasing only commercial skins.

When was the last time anyone went up to a local oil painter and expected to get any of their work for free? Never. The medium and tools may be different but, it is still up to the artist what they wish to do with their art whether it's digital or traditional.

No.  I am saying that a retailer does not produce the product in question. A retailer's only value-add is their service -- by definition. Has nothing to do with the Internet. Amazon's only value-add is the service they provide to the customer. But you also pay a premium for that service.

By contrast, when you're dealing directly with the OEM (Stardock in this case)you are dealing directly which means cheaper costs (no middle man) but less service. If users want more service, then the cost goes up.

Mean it? Absolutely. As someone who founded and has run a multi-million dollar corporation for 15 years now working in multiple markets, I think I have a pretty good understanding of market economics at this point.

When you buy a product from a retailer (either on-line or at a physical store) the retailer marks up the price from the wholesale price. They do this because of their value-add: Service. Retailers compete either on price or on service or both.

By contrast, if you are dealing directly with the manufacturer of the product, the buyer expects (rightly so) a cheaper price because now it is a more direct trade - exchanging of money for goods and services.

But ultimately, it is an exchange of equals. Just because someone has purchased a product we produced doesn't give them the right to insult us or abuse us. We have a very low threshold of tolerance for abuse from users and regularly forcibly refund users and lock them from purchasing again in the future.

A user does not have to purchase the products we make. By the same token, we don't have to sell a given user the products we make.

We treat you well because you treat us with the kind of respect you expect in return.

Abusive users, by contrast, are, as you say, shown the door. It's always been this way. This Fall will be Stardock's 15-year anniversary and this very month will be the best month the company has ever had.

Yeah, Im soooo glad to hear that isnt the case.



Yeah, I dont get what all the fuss is over when it comes to commercial skins for the very same reason you mention.... there are still plenty of free ones out there and tweaking them is simple with the tools used to implement them too.

Besides, its not like the commercial ones cost an arm and a leg and you dont have to buy em if you dont want to. I suppose what could help with the complaints though is if there were a way to make em work something like trialware... that way people could get a good sense of not just how a commercial theme looks... but how well it functions before paying. But I dont know... some people will complain about something no matter what you do.

OK, Frogboy I understand your 'drift' now. Your first statement just sounded a bit 'harsh'.

Certainly interesting times and it's good to hear your company is doing well. I'm sure MyColors is a great move and the realignment and rationization of Object Desktop 2008 is going to be a success too, and will bring you and the company even more customers.

I see Neil started a thread on the latest Windowblinds beta which seems to have drawn a lot of feedback. Good to see. I hope, we in the community, can help you even more in this area. Both parties can gain a lot plus it builds great relationships between the developers and members which is a huge. Class move. Real class.   

Threads like these tend to generate a lot of solutions.

After all, the WinCustomize wiki is the result of a thread of this nature.

Brad,
I appreciate your candid response and by no means would begin to think I know your business model completely. As you point out SD is an OEM, however they are also the retailer.
I'm old school when it comes to customer service. I expect what I paid for and I expect the frosting that makes me want to return. You are in a unique position to be able to afford to tell a disgruntled whiny customer to essentially pack it up their ass if you wish. Do that enough though and I simply don't fathom that being a working business practice.

This entire thread has had wide spread effects on me. Community and freely sharing of content has been the foundation of my continued membership and renewal. If it becomes too commercialized for the end user experience and the majority of quality content becomes pay to use then that foundation is gone. We don't mind paying for an occasional shiny new toy, but it isn't the core of why we are here.

Perhaps you will find success with new generations of customers, but the older ones will begin to vanish as that commercialization takes over. The mindset of "something for nothing" seems to be more widespread among these newer, younger customers that were never around to expierience the old community. I fear that in the end you will be left with nothing but "Masters" of your choosing with a diminished base to sell them to.

Phoon,

The community and free sharing of content depends primarily on the community. People come and go...some never return. Community relies heavily on participation and feedback which seems to be trivial or non existent lately.

I haven't heard any master's say I'm only going to make commercial skins even with some of the frustrations they have. A kind or constructive word goes along way. Also, I would be hard pressed to find any digital design house providing the amount of free content that Stardock Design and many other skinners provide.

Lets not forget , plenty of people are submitting skins. As far as I can 25 or so in just the last month. It's far from dead.

Exactly. With a few bucks being available it makes the potential for more free content IMO because when you have a vested interested in the community/marketplace you are more likely to want to build it.

I'm thinking of doing affiliate/sponsored gadgets. My first one will be called "IconOn" and hopefully HeadOn could sponsor it? Insert annoying jingle here.

  

Phoon ...that's almost sorta arse-about.  I think where skinning's concerned there was ORIGINALLY a 'something for nothing' mentality...as just about ALL skins [and skinnables] were free...so the old-school thinking was...skinning 'must' be free.  What came next was the odd individual [or three] questioning that, saying 'why MUST it be free?'...and promptly started finding outlets of a commercial nature [think Pixtudio, The Skins Factory, etc].  This inflamed the ire of the 'skins MUST be free' - brigade.... [most vocally on Customize.org at that time], but forward-thinkers came to agree/realize that there was a future in commercial skinning that could easily co-exist alongside the 'free' ones.

THAT's where you see this 'old school' acceptance of commercialism....from something that evolved.

What NOW needs to happen is those who are new [now] and tend to oppose the 'commercialism' idea....they need that time to adjust to its reality....just as we all do/did.

I have an awful feeling I could have said all that much more easily.....[been a busy weekend]...

 

over the years there´s always a long post by Frogboy complaining about costs of this and that before he raises the price of one of his products. back in the days it was mostly about bandwidth issues if i remember correctly.

just charge them what you want.the normal customers wont read this and the forum regulars here would pay any price anyways. in the end everything get´s more expensive.