Is skinning a community or a market?
Frogblog: February 2008
Monday, February 11, 2008 by Frogboy | Discussion: WinCustomize News
When skinning first got started, there was a kind of unspoken understanding between the people who made software and the people who used the software. There would be a symbiotic relationship between 3 groups. The first group, the developers, would create software to customize the look and feel of your applications and desktop. The second group, the skinners, would create the content for these programs. And the third group, the users, would work with the first two groups to help test and ensure the software worked fine by giving detailed reports on betas and even releases to help perfect the program in general. In return, the software was far far cheaper than software in other markets. Thus was borne the "skinning community".
Even into 2008, where a typical new game is $50 to $70 and the typical utility software is $50 to $70, the most popular desktop enhancement software programs remain $20 or less. In fact, Object Desktop, an entire collection of desktop enhancements, is only $50. To put it in collection, WinRar, which is most commonly (let's be honest here) used to compress pirated software, is about $40 all by itself.
As skinning has become more mainstream, the relationship between the three parties has evolved. Increasingly, the content creation is shouldered by fewer and fewer people. We created the Master Skinning program as an effort (a successful one) to encourage skinners with high degrees of talent to continue sharing their creations. The net result is that content is starting to cost money because so few new users are creating it (even for relatively simple things). Similarly, users are much less inclined to participate in open beta programs. Look at the CursorFX release. There's multiple posts complaining in the vaguest terms that it doesn't work on their systems. It works here just fine. Nearly everyone here is running CursorFX on XP or Vista without incident. We had an open beta but we received very few reports on it.
The reality is, while the skinning "community" still exists, it is now a small sub-section of the "skinning market" which is made up of traditional consumers who simply expect (with good reason) to pay money in exchange for a program and content that just works. There's nothing wrong with that. That's how every other market works. But those markets don't support products that are $10 to $20. Those products are $50 to $70. The only reason WindowBlinds isn't already a $40 program is because of the skinners and that it still gets significant help from the community in testing new beta versions (though drastically less than in the old days when, ironically, it had far fewer users).
Skinning is continuing to evolve. It's evolving increasingly into a more traditional consumer-oriented market. Stardock, I suspect, will have to adapt with some system that allows users who are contributing time and effort to the community to get credits which lets them buy the software at a less expensive price while traditional consumers pay the un-subsidized rate for the products.
I've written an article that goes into more detail. Click the link below to check it out.
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Jafo
Reply #122 Wednesday, February 13, 2008 7:02 AM
Reply #122 Wednesday, February 13, 2008 7:02 AM
They are a business and are in it for profit not to do you a favor... SD fan boys are almost as bad as apple fan boys...
I was wondering when the 'SD fan boys' phrase would pop up.
It really is childishly presumptuous of any one person to categorize anyone/everyone who supports one entity or another as 'fan boys' which presupposes a lack of commonsense intelligence and simple nous on the part of the 'fans'.
It is quite possible that those accused/classified as 'fan boys' actually have valid and educated opinions through long experience and interaction.
Let's not 'colour' our classification of disparate opinion-holders through invective....
Yes, Stardock is a company. No, Wincustomize.com is NOT a company. The latter is a Community that is subsidized by the former, so, as it currently stands the latter would not exist without the apportioning of 'profits' from the former. It's simply how it is. People are not 'fan boys' because they understand and appreciate the symbiosis - they are fans because they enjoy and share the same interests as the people at Stardock.... skins and skinning....
Jafo
Reply #123 Wednesday, February 13, 2008 7:08 AM
Reply #123 Wednesday, February 13, 2008 7:08 AM
Forgot to mention.... a 'fan boy' is more correctly called a 'punkah wallah' ....
Shadow Lord
Reply #124 Wednesday, February 13, 2008 2:27 PM
And I did not call anyone a fan boy because "they understand and appreciate the symbiosis" but because against all evidence, reason, and logic they continue to thump their chest saying SD (apple, nvidia, ATI, etc..) can never do wrong.
Reply #124 Wednesday, February 13, 2008 2:27 PM
Yes, Stardock is a company. No, Wincustomize.com is NOT a company. The latter is a Community that is subsidized by the former, so, as it currently stands the latter would not exist without the apportioning of 'profits' from the former. It's simply how it is. People are not 'fan boys' because they understand and appreciate the symbiosis - they are fans because they enjoy and share the same interests as the people at Stardock.... skins and skinning....
And I did not call anyone a fan boy because "they understand and appreciate the symbiosis" but because against all evidence, reason, and logic they continue to thump their chest saying SD (apple, nvidia, ATI, etc..) can never do wrong.
ZubaZ
Reply #125 Wednesday, February 13, 2008 2:42 PM
You'll find lots of criticism of both Stardock, their apps, their business practices, Wincustomize here in the forums but it's still the best game in town for what the users want. People support what feeds thier needs and wants.
Reply #125 Wednesday, February 13, 2008 2:42 PM
And I did not call anyone a fan boy because "they understand and appreciate the symbiosis" but because against all evidence, reason, and logic they continue to thump their chest saying SD (apple, nvidia, ATI, etc..) can never do wrong.
Informed opinion that opposes your own = fan boy? You'll find lots of criticism of both Stardock, their apps, their business practices, Wincustomize here in the forums but it's still the best game in town for what the users want. People support what feeds thier needs and wants.
killajosh
Reply #126 Wednesday, February 13, 2008 3:46 PM
I didn't say SD could never do wrong, Shadow Lord. I have simply made the choice to support a company whose products I enjoy using. I have a few minor issues with SD, but they aren't enough for me to berate Brad and Company or the way the buisness is run. We all make the choice to either purchase the software and deal with it (as I have), or bitch about money I'm not spending (as you are)....
Reply #126 Wednesday, February 13, 2008 3:46 PM
And I did not call anyone a fan boy because "they understand and appreciate the symbiosis" but because against all evidence, reason, and logic they continue to thump their chest saying SD (apple, nvidia, ATI, etc..) can never do wrong.
I didn't say SD could never do wrong, Shadow Lord. I have simply made the choice to support a company whose products I enjoy using. I have a few minor issues with SD, but they aren't enough for me to berate Brad and Company or the way the buisness is run. We all make the choice to either purchase the software and deal with it (as I have), or bitch about money I'm not spending (as you are)....
Jeffrey Bombard
Reply #128 Wednesday, February 13, 2008 8:58 PM
Unless of course your informed opinion is not in agreement with the fan boys in which case you are a whiner.
Give me a break... passion is blurring the *informed* on both sides of the argument.
But I must say I don't see Jafo posting when the just as derogatory "whiner" gets thrown around. But then again, I guess it's okay when the "good guys" are childishly presumptuous concerning those who disagree with them.
The simple fact is a lot of long time users are frustrated with the current state of affairs. Maybe skinners don't want to hear that, maybe that don't want to hear what is bothering us, maybe they just want us to shut-up, pay the money, and download. The fact of the matter is just because we disagree with how things are and how they should be, does not mean we care any less about the SD products we use. We are passionate because we want the products to have a future.
If this tool is ever going to be mainstream, the skinners need to come to the realization that their customers are not skinners, they are customizers. As customization becomes more mainstream, people don't care what goes into any of it, they want to buy a product, plug it in and have it work. Skinning may be a community, but the business side of it, customization(using skins not making them), is a market and I feel that if Stardock wants to keep the product viable they need to realize this fact and address it.
Reply #128 Wednesday, February 13, 2008 8:58 PM
Informed opinion that opposes your own = fan boy?
Unless of course your informed opinion is not in agreement with the fan boys in which case you are a whiner.
Give me a break... passion is blurring the *informed* on both sides of the argument.
But I must say I don't see Jafo posting when the just as derogatory "whiner" gets thrown around. But then again, I guess it's okay when the "good guys" are childishly presumptuous concerning those who disagree with them.
The simple fact is a lot of long time users are frustrated with the current state of affairs. Maybe skinners don't want to hear that, maybe that don't want to hear what is bothering us, maybe they just want us to shut-up, pay the money, and download. The fact of the matter is just because we disagree with how things are and how they should be, does not mean we care any less about the SD products we use. We are passionate because we want the products to have a future.
If this tool is ever going to be mainstream, the skinners need to come to the realization that their customers are not skinners, they are customizers. As customization becomes more mainstream, people don't care what goes into any of it, they want to buy a product, plug it in and have it work. Skinning may be a community, but the business side of it, customization(using skins not making them), is a market and I feel that if Stardock wants to keep the product viable they need to realize this fact and address it.
SirSmiley
Reply #129 Wednesday, February 13, 2008 9:47 PM
I think this is what the article is trying to determine. Somewhat of an informal survey so to speak. If the average user is becoming more of a user than an actual skinner then maybe it's time for Stardock to transition to content focus with a feature limited Theme Application and an increase in price for those interested in the skinning sides of things?
If the reciprocal arrangement of community involved development is disappearing maybe it's also time for Wincustomize to sink or swim on it's own? In my opinion those costs could be better spent in development. Not saying Stardock wouldn't still support the site through advertising, events, sponsorship, etc but, those are far less costly than footing the bulk of the costs for an unprofitable site.
Then again my education is accounting and my expertise is in purchasing/inventory management;so, I tend to have an negative perspective on costs.
Reply #129 Wednesday, February 13, 2008 9:47 PM
Skinning may be a community, but the business side of it, customization(using skins not making them), is a market and I feel that if Stardock wants to keep the product viable they need to realize this fact and address it.
I think this is what the article is trying to determine. Somewhat of an informal survey so to speak. If the average user is becoming more of a user than an actual skinner then maybe it's time for Stardock to transition to content focus with a feature limited Theme Application and an increase in price for those interested in the skinning sides of things?
If the reciprocal arrangement of community involved development is disappearing maybe it's also time for Wincustomize to sink or swim on it's own? In my opinion those costs could be better spent in development. Not saying Stardock wouldn't still support the site through advertising, events, sponsorship, etc but, those are far less costly than footing the bulk of the costs for an unprofitable site.
Then again my education is accounting and my expertise is in purchasing/inventory management;so, I tend to have an negative perspective on costs.
Jeffrey Bombard
Reply #130 Wednesday, February 13, 2008 10:04 PM
I would think Stardock would have all the numbers on this already. How many customers, what percentage of those are skinners, what percentage are only users... etc... It is my gut feeling though that the majority of people posting are skinners but the majority of customers are actually just users. I am sure they will do the proper analysis.
The thing is Stardock's current site is a marketing portal, the main costs from operating WC are probably incurred on user support/admin side of things, which they can't really get rid of and those costs will increase with the number of customers. If they could get rid of WC/forums all together I am sure they could save a lot of money, but I am not so sure that they would be saving much by only losing the "community" features.
Reply #130 Wednesday, February 13, 2008 10:04 PM
I think this is what the article is trying to determine. Somewhat of an informal survey so to speak. If the average user is becoming more of a user than an actual skinner then maybe it's time for Stardock to transition to content focus with a feature limited Theme Application and an increase in price for those interested in the skinning sides of things?
I would think Stardock would have all the numbers on this already. How many customers, what percentage of those are skinners, what percentage are only users... etc... It is my gut feeling though that the majority of people posting are skinners but the majority of customers are actually just users. I am sure they will do the proper analysis.
If the reciprocal arrangement of community involved development is disappearing maybe it's also time for Wincustomize to sink or swim on it's own? In my opinion those costs could be better spent in development.
The thing is Stardock's current site is a marketing portal, the main costs from operating WC are probably incurred on user support/admin side of things, which they can't really get rid of and those costs will increase with the number of customers. If they could get rid of WC/forums all together I am sure they could save a lot of money, but I am not so sure that they would be saving much by only losing the "community" features.
ZubaZ
Reply #131 Wednesday, February 13, 2008 10:17 PM
Reply #131 Wednesday, February 13, 2008 10:17 PM
If they could get rid of WC/forums all together I am sure they could save a lot of money, but I am not so sure that they would be saving much by only losing the "community" features.
We do a lot of f"ree" tech support. That cost would go up without us around.
HG_Eliminator
Reply #132 Wednesday, February 13, 2008 10:27 PM
Reply #132 Wednesday, February 13, 2008 10:27 PM
I dont see SD closing up WC as a viable option..
#1. The skins here are owned by the artists, so without Permission couldn't be taken and redistributed. This would severely limit the skins offered to the public. The softwares popularity IMO is propelled by the sheer number of wonderful skins contained at WC, to strip all them away could possibly be a killing blow.
WC offers a huge asset if only in the fact it stores the majority of the skins made for the apps, without it the customers would have to search through numerous sites. ( if you have ever been through DA it is not always an easy task)
#2. WC has probably been a great tool to introduce folks to customization/skinning, as people stumble in here looking for wallpapers and find other stuff to customize their desktops. To remove WC would remove a big advertisement and source of available content for the software.
#3. WC has been a great resource for bringing new artists in to view and allowing them to blossom in to great artists. Those of which have delved out the majority of the skins offered. Without WC around these artists would have to congregate else ware and make it harder for contractors like SD to recruit them.
As well as the free tech support etc..as Zubaz stated earlier
#1. The skins here are owned by the artists, so without Permission couldn't be taken and redistributed. This would severely limit the skins offered to the public. The softwares popularity IMO is propelled by the sheer number of wonderful skins contained at WC, to strip all them away could possibly be a killing blow.
WC offers a huge asset if only in the fact it stores the majority of the skins made for the apps, without it the customers would have to search through numerous sites. ( if you have ever been through DA it is not always an easy task)
#2. WC has probably been a great tool to introduce folks to customization/skinning, as people stumble in here looking for wallpapers and find other stuff to customize their desktops. To remove WC would remove a big advertisement and source of available content for the software.
#3. WC has been a great resource for bringing new artists in to view and allowing them to blossom in to great artists. Those of which have delved out the majority of the skins offered. Without WC around these artists would have to congregate else ware and make it harder for contractors like SD to recruit them.
As well as the free tech support etc..as Zubaz stated earlier
Leo the Lion
Reply #133 Wednesday, February 13, 2008 10:56 PM
Reply #133 Wednesday, February 13, 2008 10:56 PM
HG_E...........But all this comes at a cost and the last estimate I saw was $150,000 for running WC. That's a lot of Windowblinds sales
HG_Eliminator
Reply #134 Wednesday, February 13, 2008 11:06 PM
Well some of that is probably off set by WC subscriptions as well as ad placement.
Many Free programs have died off or dropped in popularity after skinners stopped offering skins for them. Trilian for example: it used to be my main chat prog.. but lacking in a decent number of usable skins I dropped it, as have many others.
If WC closed doors and removed the Free skins offered. Im not sure SD (the desktop customization side) would do so well.
To me the idea of being able to mix and match from a huge supply of skins is the determining factor, to limit folk's to canned themes or a tiny variety would get redundant and be just as boring as luna it's self.
I like to customize my desktop, not just theme it.
Reply #134 Wednesday, February 13, 2008 11:06 PM
HG_E...........But all this comes at a cost and the last estimate I saw was $150,000 for running WC. That's a lot of Windowblinds sales
Well some of that is probably off set by WC subscriptions as well as ad placement.
Many Free programs have died off or dropped in popularity after skinners stopped offering skins for them. Trilian for example: it used to be my main chat prog.. but lacking in a decent number of usable skins I dropped it, as have many others.
If WC closed doors and removed the Free skins offered. Im not sure SD (the desktop customization side) would do so well.
To me the idea of being able to mix and match from a huge supply of skins is the determining factor, to limit folk's to canned themes or a tiny variety would get redundant and be just as boring as luna it's self.
I like to customize my desktop, not just theme it.
Jeffrey Bombard
Reply #135 Wednesday, February 13, 2008 11:20 PM
Reply #135 Wednesday, February 13, 2008 11:20 PM
Regardless of cost, I can't see how Stardock could drop WC.
They try and play it like it a "community" site not a Stardock site, but the truth of the matter is the site is a Stardock asset, and that asset comes with a cost. Like Zubaz said, getting rid of community based support would also require more investment in official support. For any software company today, having a web site is the price of doing business. Stardock's official site doesn't stand on it's own, WC fills in the holes. If Stardock got rid of WC they would have to beef up the official site, and at the end of the day I just don't know how much savings they would really see. They want to play WC as a "community" site, but make no mistake it is an essential part of their business(under their current model). Even if they go to a 100% professionally developed content model in the future, getting rid of WC would probably not be a viable option to long after that change took place.
They try and play it like it a "community" site not a Stardock site, but the truth of the matter is the site is a Stardock asset, and that asset comes with a cost. Like Zubaz said, getting rid of community based support would also require more investment in official support. For any software company today, having a web site is the price of doing business. Stardock's official site doesn't stand on it's own, WC fills in the holes. If Stardock got rid of WC they would have to beef up the official site, and at the end of the day I just don't know how much savings they would really see. They want to play WC as a "community" site, but make no mistake it is an essential part of their business(under their current model). Even if they go to a 100% professionally developed content model in the future, getting rid of WC would probably not be a viable option to long after that change took place.
SirSmiley
Reply #136 Wednesday, February 13, 2008 11:36 PM
Reply #136 Wednesday, February 13, 2008 11:36 PM
Well I wasn't really meaning eliminating WC just separating the two. Stardock does have it's own forum that is integrated with WC. That would mean in order to get specific support you would have to be a regular Stardock customer.
Nor was I intending that Stardock would disappear from WC and obviously it would perhaps still be the biggest partner/supporter. Paying ad revenue based on standard metrics, I'm sure would be far cheaper than the actual cost of running the site.
Zubaz made a good point too as I'm wondering what the trade off would be in terms of support costs.
Have to say these are both exciting and trying times in the customization community and it's great that the leading software company in the market does have these frank discussions. On the other hand it's hard to fairly compare this segment to any other software market. For example gaming in particular as we all know how fanatical people can be about their hobbies and have a spare no cost attitude. That just isn't the case for the majority of skinners.
Nor was I intending that Stardock would disappear from WC and obviously it would perhaps still be the biggest partner/supporter. Paying ad revenue based on standard metrics, I'm sure would be far cheaper than the actual cost of running the site.
Zubaz made a good point too as I'm wondering what the trade off would be in terms of support costs.
Have to say these are both exciting and trying times in the customization community and it's great that the leading software company in the market does have these frank discussions. On the other hand it's hard to fairly compare this segment to any other software market. For example gaming in particular as we all know how fanatical people can be about their hobbies and have a spare no cost attitude. That just isn't the case for the majority of skinners.
HG_Eliminator
Reply #137 Wednesday, February 13, 2008 11:49 PM
Make no mistake it is a community, a few of the community elders,decided to start a business offering a program no other could do,skin the windows. Many of the community jumped on board and offered support to this growing company as well as offered content. We have watched and helped nurture this company anyway we can.
Why? because they are friends, I chat often with the SD/WC folks we laugh,shoot the breeze, share life's daily goings on and some times console each other when theres a tragedy. Many of them I have known or been around with since before WC was formed, A few before WB was out.
When my mom passed I was crushed, my pals at WC and SD and the community at large, were always there to chat with and console me, some even wanted to send care packages etc. So don't "claim" to know what you are sorely misinformed on.
Even if SD dropped desktop customization, We would still be a community. Many of us came from other places when WC arose, as well as started skinning WB etc. and had been customizing our desktops some time before WB made its debut. Yes we would have to find a new home, but we would still be a community.
SD didn't make the create the skinning community it just offered us a great place to hang out.
Reply #137 Wednesday, February 13, 2008 11:49 PM
They want to play WC as a "community" site, but make no mistake it is an essential part of their business(under their current model)
Make no mistake it is a community, a few of the community elders,decided to start a business offering a program no other could do,skin the windows. Many of the community jumped on board and offered support to this growing company as well as offered content. We have watched and helped nurture this company anyway we can.
Why? because they are friends, I chat often with the SD/WC folks we laugh,shoot the breeze, share life's daily goings on and some times console each other when theres a tragedy. Many of them I have known or been around with since before WC was formed, A few before WB was out.
When my mom passed I was crushed, my pals at WC and SD and the community at large, were always there to chat with and console me, some even wanted to send care packages etc. So don't "claim" to know what you are sorely misinformed on.
Even if SD dropped desktop customization, We would still be a community. Many of us came from other places when WC arose, as well as started skinning WB etc. and had been customizing our desktops some time before WB made its debut. Yes we would have to find a new home, but we would still be a community.
SD didn't make the create the skinning community it just offered us a great place to hang out.
I.R. Brainiac
Reply #138 Thursday, February 14, 2008 12:00 AM
Very true.It's what got me here.
Reply #138 Thursday, February 14, 2008 12:00 AM
Regardless of cost, I can't see how Stardock could drop WC.
Very true.It's what got me here.
Jeffrey Bombard
Reply #139 Thursday, February 14, 2008 12:31 AM
Reply #139 Thursday, February 14, 2008 12:31 AM
Don't take it personally it wasn't meant to be.
It might not taste good, but like it or not WC is a Stardock asset. It may be an asset that encompasses a community, but it is a business asset just the same. Now you might not like being called an asset, but that doesn't change it.
I am not trying to discuss whether or not people have friends and relationships here, as I assume people do. I am in fact not speaking about the state of the community here at all. I am simply talking about the business side of it. If SD dropped desktop customization, chances are this community would dissolve or move somewhere else, because I doubt they would be able to maintain WC without the business side of things. Everyone's contributions, to skins, user support, transfering skills, all of these things are a huge asset to Stardocks business. You may be doing it for the "community" but that doesn't change that there is a very real business side of the equation, you may choose to ignore it but it doesn't change it.
Make no mistake it is a community, a few of the community elders,decided to start a business offering a program no other could do,skin the windows. Many of the community jumped on board and offered support to this growing company as well as offered content. We have watched and helped nurture this company anyway we can.
It might not taste good, but like it or not WC is a Stardock asset. It may be an asset that encompasses a community, but it is a business asset just the same. Now you might not like being called an asset, but that doesn't change it.
When my mom passed I was crushed, my pals at WC and SD and the community at large, were always there to chat with and console me, some even wanted to send care packages etc. So don't "claim" to know what you are sorely misinformed on.
Even if SD dropped desktop customization, We would still be a community. Many of us came from other places when WC arose, as well as started skinning WB etc. and had been customizing our desktops some time before WB made its debut. Yes we would have to find a new home, but we would still be a community.
Even if SD dropped desktop customization, We would still be a community. Many of us came from other places when WC arose, as well as started skinning WB etc. and had been customizing our desktops some time before WB made its debut. Yes we would have to find a new home, but we would still be a community.
I am not trying to discuss whether or not people have friends and relationships here, as I assume people do. I am in fact not speaking about the state of the community here at all. I am simply talking about the business side of it. If SD dropped desktop customization, chances are this community would dissolve or move somewhere else, because I doubt they would be able to maintain WC without the business side of things. Everyone's contributions, to skins, user support, transfering skills, all of these things are a huge asset to Stardocks business. You may be doing it for the "community" but that doesn't change that there is a very real business side of the equation, you may choose to ignore it but it doesn't change it.
c242
Reply #140 Thursday, February 14, 2008 12:50 AM
Full ACK.
Reply #140 Thursday, February 14, 2008 12:50 AM
The fact of the matter is just because we disagree with how things are and how they should be, does not mean we care any less about the SD products we use. We are passionate because we want the products to have a future.
Full ACK.
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Reply #121 Wednesday, February 13, 2008 6:47 AM
Maybe a group of "dedicated" testers with access to a private forum where it won't get flooded with non-related posts, and where the developers/staff will have direct access to the testers.