Is skinning a community or a market?
Frogblog: February 2008
Monday, February 11, 2008 by Frogboy | Discussion: WinCustomize News
When skinning first got started, there was a kind of unspoken understanding between the people who made software and the people who used the software. There would be a symbiotic relationship between 3 groups. The first group, the developers, would create software to customize the look and feel of your applications and desktop. The second group, the skinners, would create the content for these programs. And the third group, the users, would work with the first two groups to help test and ensure the software worked fine by giving detailed reports on betas and even releases to help perfect the program in general. In return, the software was far far cheaper than software in other markets. Thus was borne the "skinning community".
Even into 2008, where a typical new game is $50 to $70 and the typical utility software is $50 to $70, the most popular desktop enhancement software programs remain $20 or less. In fact, Object Desktop, an entire collection of desktop enhancements, is only $50. To put it in collection, WinRar, which is most commonly (let's be honest here) used to compress pirated software, is about $40 all by itself.
As skinning has become more mainstream, the relationship between the three parties has evolved. Increasingly, the content creation is shouldered by fewer and fewer people. We created the Master Skinning program as an effort (a successful one) to encourage skinners with high degrees of talent to continue sharing their creations. The net result is that content is starting to cost money because so few new users are creating it (even for relatively simple things). Similarly, users are much less inclined to participate in open beta programs. Look at the CursorFX release. There's multiple posts complaining in the vaguest terms that it doesn't work on their systems. It works here just fine. Nearly everyone here is running CursorFX on XP or Vista without incident. We had an open beta but we received very few reports on it.
The reality is, while the skinning "community" still exists, it is now a small sub-section of the "skinning market" which is made up of traditional consumers who simply expect (with good reason) to pay money in exchange for a program and content that just works. There's nothing wrong with that. That's how every other market works. But those markets don't support products that are $10 to $20. Those products are $50 to $70. The only reason WindowBlinds isn't already a $40 program is because of the skinners and that it still gets significant help from the community in testing new beta versions (though drastically less than in the old days when, ironically, it had far fewer users).
Skinning is continuing to evolve. It's evolving increasingly into a more traditional consumer-oriented market. Stardock, I suspect, will have to adapt with some system that allows users who are contributing time and effort to the community to get credits which lets them buy the software at a less expensive price while traditional consumers pay the un-subsidized rate for the products.
I've written an article that goes into more detail. Click the link below to check it out.
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Reply #202 Sunday, February 17, 2008 9:51 AM
With all the talk about the users not doing their part in beta testing, etc and the cost to SD continually on the rise, this statement by Brad seems somewhat out of place and over looked by respondents to this thread. A bit confusing it seems to me. Just what are we really talking about here? Obviously the current structure does not seem to be hurting the company as one would think reading this thread.
Reply #203 Sunday, February 17, 2008 10:20 AM
Apparently not.
Reply #204 Sunday, February 17, 2008 10:32 AM
With all the talk about the users not doing their part in beta testing, etc and the cost to SD continually on the rise, this statement by Brad seems somewhat out of place and over looked by respondents to this thread. A bit confusing it seems to me. Just what are we really talking about here? Obviously the current structure does not seem to be hurting the company as one would think reading this thread.
Sort of makes you want to step back and go Hmmmm.
Reply #205 Sunday, February 17, 2008 11:19 AM
I'll bring the theme back here.For me the issue is in resolving the title of the thread to the point where we can feel that Stardock's success in the market, compliments/is complimented by, the work that's put into it's partnership with the community.
I don't know why it's framed as an either or thing. A lot of it for me is about making sure communication keeps pace with change.
If that's what this thread is about, then that's a good thing.
Reply #206 Sunday, February 17, 2008 11:46 AM
I'm old school when it comes to customer service. I expect what I paid for and I expect the frosting that makes me want to return. You are in a unique position to be able to afford to tell a disgruntled whiny customer to essentially pack it up their ass if you wish. Do that enough though and I simply don't fathom that being a working business practice.
It's not a unique position. What you are confrusing here is that you aren't paying for service. If people want that, it can be arranged but it will cost more money.
And even at retail there are limits. Do you think if someone bought a pack of gum at the local store that the store manager would allow the customer to sit around all day bitcihng abou tthe quality of the gum to any and all in their store?
Reply #207 Sunday, February 17, 2008 11:54 AM
This could be true. But at the same time it could be wrong.
He stated it is the companys best month ever. Not an individual products best month ever. Being part of a company that has several different divisions, just because the company is having a great month does not mean every product they have is working out profitably.
For example if you make 5 different products and you make very good profits on 2 of these products, a little profit on 1, and are usually at a loss on the other 2, then at some point you have to say to yourself "Okay do we keep taking the profits from products 1,2,and 3 to keep products 4 and 5 afloat or do we cut our losses on products 4 and 5?"
Reply #208 Sunday, February 17, 2008 11:54 AM
I'd take this one step further. In the beginning of the community, the community provided for itself. Now, we have increasingly seen new people come in, people used to paying for cell phone ringers and Xbove Live points and what not who don't see a big deal in paying for this kind of stuff. But that leaves the people who have historically been free riders -- people who either just bought software or used the freeware who are miffed at the encroachment of this trend.
Reply #209 Sunday, February 17, 2008 12:05 PM
I'm not complaining about costs. I'm lamentind the slow marginalization of the skinning community that I know and love. Our costs have gone up only because there are fewer and fewer people who come in and become involved in the community.
Kenwas wrote how he doesn't understand how Stardock can suggest raising prices or what not when it's having its best month ever. But that's precisely the issue, Stardock had its best month ever despite WinCustomize losing money and community-related software sales and content representing smaller percentages of Stardock's revenue and becoming only marginally profitable.
I remember in the last days of the OS/2 market (and I'm not suggesting that the skinning community is dying) that even as the OS/2 market was dying, the user base was increasingly shrill and demanding on us. That we "owed" them for our very existence and thus had no right to make Windows software. The other thing we noticed was that the users left on OS/2 behaved with increasing levels of entitlement.
It is that sense of entitlement that I see quite regularly nowadays in the skinning community today that realy gets on our nerves. I see people buy a $10 to $20 program and complain and complain about issues that are, sorry, just petty and trivial. I have bigger issues with Photoshop than I see in some of the shrill posts I sometimes see on WinCustomize and that's a $500 program.
I think I can speak for a LOT of skinners here when I say that it's pretty obnoxious to see some guy who bought a $20 software utility bitching that not all the skins are free (only 95% plus are) and treating skinners (whether they be third parties or Stardockians) as virtual slaves to them. It's just as if someone who buys a DVD player complaining that the movies aren't free. Except here, the "DVD player" is $20 and virtually all the content IS free.
Reply #210 Sunday, February 17, 2008 12:41 PM
I know Im new here but let me see is I got this right... What seems to be the issues that brought on this thread basically break down to 2 things... I will form them as questions to make sure I am understanding you correctly and humbly submit my suggestions to you for each issue as I have interpreting them.
So the first thing would be a lack of community involvement when it comes to QA and such along with people b!tching about things like beta software not working as if it were a final product???
Solution
There obviously have been many great solutions to this problem in this thread. In about all of them the number of people actually actively participating in such things may decrease. HOWEVER... the quality of such ongoings would increase.
So the second thing would be customers who are disgruntled about paying for the commercial/master skins???
Solution
A simple yet quite possibly effective way to ease this would be to separate the free skins from the commercial/master ones in the galleries. As it sits (last I checked anyways) at only displaying 12 results per page... It wasnt too uncommon to see a page of skins that were mostly pay. (didnt bother me but others might be put off by this)
If there were a choice to look at free or pay... It may help simply on a psychological level to nip this problem in the bud.
Is there anything else that I have missed??? Have I even understood you correctly at all??
Once again I extend my thanks for taking the time out to read my post and for your consideration.
Reply #211 Sunday, February 17, 2008 12:44 PM
Thanks for the clarification of the profitability split, although I am not sure what is included or, equally as important what is not included, in "community-related software sales". I never thought that you had any expectations of WC giving profit performance equal to the gaming side of the business or the other areas of SD but rather as a vehicle for the skinning community and product awareness/exposure. My impression was that it served its purpose well as long as it did not significantly hurt the performance of the overall SD enterprise which was my point in that the overall managed to have the best month on record. I gather the negative impact is becoming significant from your reply.
I do not think that the occasion "entitlement" customer that is so annoying is reflective of the base of WC but might indeed be growing from the data you see.
Reply #212 Sunday, February 17, 2008 12:52 PM
Thats just not true. I check the galleries every day.. sometimes several times and have done for years.
Even if it was true, wouldn't matter...those that do sell, have earned it...with previous free work, community contributions.
Reply #213 Sunday, February 17, 2008 1:45 PM
Thats just not true. I check the galleries every day.. sometimes several times and have done for years.
Even if it was true, wouldn't matter...those that do sell, have earned it...with previous free work, community contributions.
vStyler,
The basis of my statement is that at least on one occasion a few weeks back, while looking at wb skins there was/were at least 1 page of 12 skins that were at least half or more pay. Now I dont care and didnt care then and never took note of the particulars of it because I didnt think it important. I just continued browsing through the skins (all 500+ pages worth I think it was).
However, I simply pointed it out because it may be possible that a new user (who might already have some disgruntled issues or skepticism regarding something to begin with) may chance to happen upon a similar circumstance while browsing a gallery and simply think... "wtf! its all pay!" (Which we know NOT to be true.)
As far as that last part goes... I agree with you. I have already stated previously in this thread that I think it to be a nice incentive for the master skinners to be able to sell their hard work and that I dont think they are unreasonably priced either.
Furthermore, I stated before that I dont understand what all the fuss is about when it comes to paying for the commercial/master skins since its up to whoever as to whether or not they want to pay for em.
There just seems to be a lot of "everybody wants something for nothin" going on to which I am just trying to approach the subject matter from a neautral point under a pretense that the situation can be resolved easily between all partys (skinners/stardock/cunsumers) through clear communication.
In the case of free vs. pay skins... clear communication upfront to John and Jane Q consumer that although there are some really well designed commercial/master skins that you have the option to purchase for a reasonable price... There are also hundreds if not thousands of free skins available too.
In my previous reply... I suggested perhaps separating the commercial/master skins from the free ones in the galleries because it would on a psychological level clearly communicate the above statement to John and Jane Q consumer with little to no wriggle room for doubt.
I know it should be obvious to anyone already, (it was to me) but then again... it should be obvious to the lady in the 10 items or less checkout in front of me at the supermarket that it is an express lane... but it still dont stop her from poppin up there with a cart full of goodies and copping an attitude with the clerk till she gets ALL her items rung up.
Thanks for your time in reading my previous reply vStyker and anyone else for that matter. I hope this reply goes to help clear up any misconceptions about my previous one.
Reply #214 Sunday, February 17, 2008 1:59 PM
This why why it would be nice to be able to go back and edit your replies and posts... Just for the record... incase there is any confusion... that last part about the should stuff... was referring to the fact that although there are some pay for skins there are also plenty of free ones.. Also appologies vStyler for the "vStyker" type-0.Reply #215 Sunday, February 17, 2008 2:43 PM
Reply #216 Sunday, February 17, 2008 2:51 PM
Reply #217 Sunday, February 17, 2008 2:54 PM
Zubaz... wake up.. wake UP!!!
Reply #218 Sunday, February 17, 2008 3:22 PM
OK please remind me of which products have gone up in price and when..I for one cant remember ever any prices going up.
The jist is SD needs continued community support to maintain the price range we currently enjoy (less community support means SD has to hire people to cover it which will raise prices).
We all could do without the Entitlement minded Crabby folks posting and throwing fits. Bad attitudes and Poorly written support questions just add to the headaches. "This crap dont work fix it" offers no info to those willing to Help you resolve your problems. If you went to some other company's site and just posted this, as I have seen many do here, the thread woulds be removed and your posting privileges would be revoked. SD and WC has been more than tolerant with Abusive folks, but it can get old fast.
95% of the content is provided Freely. If out of the what? thousands of skins there are freely, you find that the only skin that is perfect for you is a $9 master skin, Buy the dam thing and Support that skinner to build more. It can take months building a suite of the magnitude of some of the master skins and occasionally asking a small pittance IMO is not to much to ask for the years of time/dedication they gave to become masters.
Most of all, have fun folks. We all came here with the same Goal, to customize our PC's and have fun. Lets try to get back to that and leave the attitude's at the door.
If there was, We could buy Bill gates out
Reply #219 Sunday, February 17, 2008 4:44 PM
Reply #220 Sunday, February 17, 2008 5:11 PM
Zubaz thinks he has a gold mine
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Reply #201 Sunday, February 17, 2008 9:25 AM
except The Skins Factory (that never sold skins to the user) they´re all gone though.
so it seems the only way of making a living from skinning Stardock software is getting hired by Stardock.