Is skinning a community or a market?
Frogblog: February 2008
Monday, February 11, 2008 by Frogboy | Discussion: WinCustomize News
When skinning first got started, there was a kind of unspoken understanding between the people who made software and the people who used the software. There would be a symbiotic relationship between 3 groups. The first group, the developers, would create software to customize the look and feel of your applications and desktop. The second group, the skinners, would create the content for these programs. And the third group, the users, would work with the first two groups to help test and ensure the software worked fine by giving detailed reports on betas and even releases to help perfect the program in general. In return, the software was far far cheaper than software in other markets. Thus was borne the "skinning community".
Even into 2008, where a typical new game is $50 to $70 and the typical utility software is $50 to $70, the most popular desktop enhancement software programs remain $20 or less. In fact, Object Desktop, an entire collection of desktop enhancements, is only $50. To put it in collection, WinRar, which is most commonly (let's be honest here) used to compress pirated software, is about $40 all by itself.
As skinning has become more mainstream, the relationship between the three parties has evolved. Increasingly, the content creation is shouldered by fewer and fewer people. We created the Master Skinning program as an effort (a successful one) to encourage skinners with high degrees of talent to continue sharing their creations. The net result is that content is starting to cost money because so few new users are creating it (even for relatively simple things). Similarly, users are much less inclined to participate in open beta programs. Look at the CursorFX release. There's multiple posts complaining in the vaguest terms that it doesn't work on their systems. It works here just fine. Nearly everyone here is running CursorFX on XP or Vista without incident. We had an open beta but we received very few reports on it.
The reality is, while the skinning "community" still exists, it is now a small sub-section of the "skinning market" which is made up of traditional consumers who simply expect (with good reason) to pay money in exchange for a program and content that just works. There's nothing wrong with that. That's how every other market works. But those markets don't support products that are $10 to $20. Those products are $50 to $70. The only reason WindowBlinds isn't already a $40 program is because of the skinners and that it still gets significant help from the community in testing new beta versions (though drastically less than in the old days when, ironically, it had far fewer users).
Skinning is continuing to evolve. It's evolving increasingly into a more traditional consumer-oriented market. Stardock, I suspect, will have to adapt with some system that allows users who are contributing time and effort to the community to get credits which lets them buy the software at a less expensive price while traditional consumers pay the un-subsidized rate for the products.
I've written an article that goes into more detail. Click the link below to check it out.
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Disturbedcomputer
Reply #222 Monday, February 18, 2008 3:25 AM
Reply #222 Monday, February 18, 2008 3:25 AM
note I did not type this up like this as in my Reply #221
I had it all spaced right why is it jumbling it all into one big sentence/paragraph ?
NightTrainthedark
Reply #223 Monday, February 18, 2008 6:31 AM
Reply #223 Monday, February 18, 2008 6:31 AM
If people want to make money doing graphic work then go to school and train like the rest of the world has done for ages. If you really think that sitting at home in front of your computer is going to generate any lucrative results you hit the bong a few too many times. 
c242
Reply #224 Monday, February 18, 2008 8:48 AM
Reply #224 Monday, February 18, 2008 8:48 AM
Fuzzy : Pay more for BETAS ? Someone really has to draw a line here. With all respect to You, but that is really the weirdest propoposal I have read here for a while.
RickyMaveety
Reply #225 Monday, February 18, 2008 12:43 PM
Reply #225 Monday, February 18, 2008 12:43 PM
I started a reply to this thread, and then thought I should maybe read a little more first .... glad I did. My first reply would have been a bit off topic.
I'm new to OD/WB (very new), and never thoought about skinning before. I just used whatever came with Windows. However, after purchasing the programs and then discovering all the great stuff posted on this site ... I got really inspired. Granted, some of the free materials are not exactly what I want ... but then that just makes me want to learn to create the missing parts. So, instead of spending quite as much time on SecondLife modeling furniture for my store, I'm learning how to create OD backgrounds and icons for use with Tiggz's marvelous K-TEK screens.
There is some remarkable stuff out there that doesn't cost anything ... and $5 for a master skin is reasonable.
To take the car analogy and beat it to death with a stick, I've bought the car ... has tires and it runs ... but I want a really killer paint job, super custom. I can either pay someone for that extra, or I can learn to do it myself .... or get it done cheaply and tweak it (which is what someone like me generally does).
Now, granted, I'm not about to throw beta testing into the mix at this point ... I'm having enough trouble just learning to create content without bug hunting. Doesn't mean I won't ... just means I wouldn't be much good at it right now because I can't tell the difference between a bug and my own stupidity.
Of course, all of this may end up being an expensive proposition in the end - because now I really (really) want to purchase Cinema 4D so that I can create some really magnificent renders for my icons and wallpaper. (I'm sitting here with a giant case of K-TEK envy at the moment).
I'm new to OD/WB (very new), and never thoought about skinning before. I just used whatever came with Windows. However, after purchasing the programs and then discovering all the great stuff posted on this site ... I got really inspired. Granted, some of the free materials are not exactly what I want ... but then that just makes me want to learn to create the missing parts. So, instead of spending quite as much time on SecondLife modeling furniture for my store, I'm learning how to create OD backgrounds and icons for use with Tiggz's marvelous K-TEK screens.
There is some remarkable stuff out there that doesn't cost anything ... and $5 for a master skin is reasonable.
To take the car analogy and beat it to death with a stick, I've bought the car ... has tires and it runs ... but I want a really killer paint job, super custom. I can either pay someone for that extra, or I can learn to do it myself .... or get it done cheaply and tweak it (which is what someone like me generally does).
Now, granted, I'm not about to throw beta testing into the mix at this point ... I'm having enough trouble just learning to create content without bug hunting. Doesn't mean I won't ... just means I wouldn't be much good at it right now because I can't tell the difference between a bug and my own stupidity.
Of course, all of this may end up being an expensive proposition in the end - because now I really (really) want to purchase Cinema 4D so that I can create some really magnificent renders for my icons and wallpaper. (I'm sitting here with a giant case of K-TEK envy at the moment).
SirSmiley
Reply #226 Monday, February 18, 2008 5:27 PM
That's kind of a narrow minded comment. Some of the most talented people I know never had a day of formal education in their field.
The same could be said for finding a job or many other things. If you spend all day looking at job boards but, don't do anything else then you'll never find a job. I've encountered a number of people making pretty good incomes from sitting at home in front of the computer.
It comes down to what you're doing on the computer be it at home or in an office environment.
Reply #226 Monday, February 18, 2008 5:27 PM
If people want to make money doing graphic work then go to school and train like the rest of the world has done for ages.
That's kind of a narrow minded comment. Some of the most talented people I know never had a day of formal education in their field.
If you really think that sitting at home in front of your computer is going to generate any lucrative results you hit the bong a few too many times.
The same could be said for finding a job or many other things. If you spend all day looking at job boards but, don't do anything else then you'll never find a job. I've encountered a number of people making pretty good incomes from sitting at home in front of the computer.
It comes down to what you're doing on the computer be it at home or in an office environment.
vStyler
Reply #227 Monday, February 18, 2008 6:18 PM
Reply #227 Monday, February 18, 2008 6:18 PM
Well, I'm not getting rich sitting here, but I'm paying my share of the bills, doesn't mean that with enough initiative I can't in the future better my position through hard work and dedication.. Where there's a will there's always a way.. School, home.. doesn't matter to me.
NightTrainthedark
Reply #228 Tuesday, February 19, 2008 5:58 AM
True. I know many succesful people that are uneducated as well but I know many many more that were professionally trained. Self teaching is a valid way to learn but not for most.
I was talking big bucks though. Like Pixar / Disney. With education and training you could be making millions for doing graphic work. I sort of see skinning as entry level graphic work. If I can do it , anyone can. I am not saying it doesn't require talent but you'll learn more, faster, by going to school to gain knowledge rather than starting from scratch with a pirated copy of Photoshop.
Reply #228 Tuesday, February 19, 2008 5:58 AM
That's kind of a narrow minded comment. Some of the most talented people I know never had a day of formal education in their field.
True. I know many succesful people that are uneducated as well but I know many many more that were professionally trained. Self teaching is a valid way to learn but not for most.
I was talking big bucks though. Like Pixar / Disney. With education and training you could be making millions for doing graphic work. I sort of see skinning as entry level graphic work. If I can do it , anyone can. I am not saying it doesn't require talent but you'll learn more, faster, by going to school to gain knowledge rather than starting from scratch with a pirated copy of Photoshop.
kenwas
Reply #229 Tuesday, February 19, 2008 6:25 AM
That's certainly true if you own the studio or are in the upper end of the management team and have stock options. As for the basic set of folks that actually do the graphics work, I think you will find it is very competitive field with a lot of very talented people and the project pay or salaries are not that great as there are so many trying to break in and will do work for very little compensation. Are there exceptions and super stars?. Sure, but in total it is a tough field.
Reply #229 Tuesday, February 19, 2008 6:25 AM
I was talking big bucks though. Like Pixar / Disney. With education and training you could be making millions for doing graphic work.
That's certainly true if you own the studio or are in the upper end of the management team and have stock options. As for the basic set of folks that actually do the graphics work, I think you will find it is very competitive field with a lot of very talented people and the project pay or salaries are not that great as there are so many trying to break in and will do work for very little compensation. Are there exceptions and super stars?. Sure, but in total it is a tough field.
vStyler
Reply #230 Tuesday, February 19, 2008 6:46 AM
Reply #230 Tuesday, February 19, 2008 6:46 AM
When one considers the immense commercial possibilities of desktop customization\advertising and small number of pro quality skinners... seems the odds of making a healthy living skinning would be on our side.
Maybe I'm just a hippy dreamer
Maybe I'm just a hippy dreamer
Jafo
Reply #231 Tuesday, February 19, 2008 7:08 AM
Reply #231 Tuesday, February 19, 2008 7:08 AM
I sort of see skinning as entry level graphic work.
That's one heck of a put-down for a lot of people here.
Rest assured there will be 'million dollar earners' in graphics who would NOT HAVE A CLUE how to skin.
And...
There are successful graphic artists who started out by honing their skills with skinning, and the converse also applies....
NightTrainthedark
Reply #232 Tuesday, February 19, 2008 10:37 AM
The flipside to that is there are a lot of people that would be proud to call themseleves amateur graphic artists.
Reply #232 Tuesday, February 19, 2008 10:37 AM
I sort of see skinning as entry level graphic work.
That's one heck of a put-down for a lot of people here.
That's one heck of a put-down for a lot of people here.
The flipside to that is there are a lot of people that would be proud to call themseleves amateur graphic artists.
SirSmiley
Reply #233 Tuesday, February 19, 2008 2:52 PM
Reply #233 Tuesday, February 19, 2008 2:52 PM
Night Train, thanks for clarifying that.
Yeah, formal education will get people there quicker but, only when combined with practical experience. That's why I think co-op type work experience is such an integral part of any education.
There's also a third group that would just consider themselves artists.
Yeah, formal education will get people there quicker but, only when combined with practical experience. That's why I think co-op type work experience is such an integral part of any education.
The flipside to that is there are a lot of people that would be proud to call themseleves amateur graphic artists.
There's also a third group that would just consider themselves artists.
Frogboy
Reply #234 Tuesday, February 19, 2008 3:39 PM
Reply #234 Tuesday, February 19, 2008 3:39 PM
A good skinner can make quite a bit of money. I would know.
And I'm not talking entry level type money either.
killajosh
Reply #235 Tuesday, February 19, 2008 3:53 PM
Ya know, my girlfriend's little brother went to Full Sail in Florida. He got his degree in Graphic Design. He's now in the Navy after graduating with a 3.8 GPA. Couldn't get a job in graphic arts. So he joined the Navy to pay off his college loans. Lotta good school did him. Got more talent as an artist than just about anyone I've ever met...
Just goes to show you, school isn't EVERYTHING. Sure, he's got a degree in graphics and can use a PC like a pro...... but he's still in the Navy trying to pay off those loans because he couldn't get that big job.
Reply #235 Tuesday, February 19, 2008 3:53 PM
I was talking big bucks though. Like Pixar / Disney. With education and training you could be making millions for doing graphic work.
Ya know, my girlfriend's little brother went to Full Sail in Florida. He got his degree in Graphic Design. He's now in the Navy after graduating with a 3.8 GPA. Couldn't get a job in graphic arts. So he joined the Navy to pay off his college loans. Lotta good school did him. Got more talent as an artist than just about anyone I've ever met...
Just goes to show you, school isn't EVERYTHING. Sure, he's got a degree in graphics and can use a PC like a pro...... but he's still in the Navy trying to pay off those loans because he couldn't get that big job.
RickyMaveety
Reply #236 Tuesday, February 19, 2008 11:42 PM
Reply #236 Tuesday, February 19, 2008 11:42 PM
I'm fairly sure that almost no one is making "millions" doing graphics work. I say "almost" because there are the rare Picassos and Hockneys who reach that level, but most of the studio artists only make a decent living off it.
As to the various groups who post or add content (and yes, I know I haven't added anything yet, but I just finished my first dock and about 40 icons to go on it), let's not forget that there is a fourth group -- those of us who purchased the software unaware that there was any content at this site or anywhere else, and who got the software for the sole purpose of creating our own docks and icons. Finding all the freebies was just icing on the cake.
I'm an attorney. Graphics for me are just what I'm passionate about when I'm not in front of the computer working on corporate transactions. I'm not looking for anyone to discover me as a graphic artist here, I'm just hoping that whatever I post won't be torn to shreds by the critics.
This site is no different than any of the other graphics sites around the net. All the companies that produce software (some expensive ... some not so much) that allows people to create computer graphics provide some free, some discounted, and some full price content. Consumers (like me) can chose to either make our own from scratch or, use some of the free or purchased content, or go with all third party content. It is nothing new or unusual.
I pay $7.00 a month to one site just to be a member and get discounts on my downloads. Another site lets members sell items, or choose to post them for free. If they broker them on the site, then the site gets a cut of the profits.
So, I'm finding it a little funny to hear people complain about not getting a ton of free content with their $50.00 program (even while there is a ton of free content from what I can see), when I'm used to paying several hundred dollars for a program and getting zero free content .... it's either make your own or buy it for around $20.00 for a single model or set of textures.
So far, I'm a happy camper after something like a month of playing with the software. The few problems I had at the beginning (with Windowblinds) I was able to solve with the help of a very nice guy at Stardock, and I feel like I purchased a really great $50.00 tool that lets me have fun with graphics in a whole new arena. And then there were all these great feebies on top of it. Really, that was unexpected ... I thought Wincustomize would be pay only.
OK .... off my soapbox now.
As to the various groups who post or add content (and yes, I know I haven't added anything yet, but I just finished my first dock and about 40 icons to go on it), let's not forget that there is a fourth group -- those of us who purchased the software unaware that there was any content at this site or anywhere else, and who got the software for the sole purpose of creating our own docks and icons. Finding all the freebies was just icing on the cake.
I'm an attorney. Graphics for me are just what I'm passionate about when I'm not in front of the computer working on corporate transactions. I'm not looking for anyone to discover me as a graphic artist here, I'm just hoping that whatever I post won't be torn to shreds by the critics.
This site is no different than any of the other graphics sites around the net. All the companies that produce software (some expensive ... some not so much) that allows people to create computer graphics provide some free, some discounted, and some full price content. Consumers (like me) can chose to either make our own from scratch or, use some of the free or purchased content, or go with all third party content. It is nothing new or unusual.
I pay $7.00 a month to one site just to be a member and get discounts on my downloads. Another site lets members sell items, or choose to post them for free. If they broker them on the site, then the site gets a cut of the profits.
So, I'm finding it a little funny to hear people complain about not getting a ton of free content with their $50.00 program (even while there is a ton of free content from what I can see), when I'm used to paying several hundred dollars for a program and getting zero free content .... it's either make your own or buy it for around $20.00 for a single model or set of textures.
So far, I'm a happy camper after something like a month of playing with the software. The few problems I had at the beginning (with Windowblinds) I was able to solve with the help of a very nice guy at Stardock, and I feel like I purchased a really great $50.00 tool that lets me have fun with graphics in a whole new arena. And then there were all these great feebies on top of it. Really, that was unexpected ... I thought Wincustomize would be pay only.
OK .... off my soapbox now.
RickyMaveety
Reply #237 Wednesday, February 20, 2008 12:14 AM
Reply #237 Wednesday, February 20, 2008 12:14 AM
PS: Please don't anyone rip me a new one for saying Picasso and Hockney worked in "graphics." I realize there is a big difference between fine art and graphics work. That was really my point. So, actually, no one is making millions in good ol' graphics.
HG_Eliminator
Reply #238 Wednesday, February 20, 2008 12:44 AM
Reply #238 Wednesday, February 20, 2008 12:44 AM
Fine art knows no Boundaries of medium used, whether it be oil,lead,latex,acrylic,or pixels. The beauty/value is in the eye of the beholder.
Theres quite a few images here and all over the net as well, that I personally would love to have hanging on my walls.
Theres quite a few images here and all over the net as well, that I personally would love to have hanging on my walls.
RickyMaveety
Reply #240 Wednesday, February 20, 2008 1:10 PM
Reply #240 Wednesday, February 20, 2008 1:10 PM
Oh, I agree, HG. There are some really beautiful images done on the computer. I hope that someday there will be galleries with huge screens so that people can really appreciate them. But, I doubt that computer graphics will ever rise to the level of fine art in an economic sense only because the primary value of fine art arises from its rarity.
The medium of computer graphics lends itself too easily to reproduction ... and perfect reproduction I might add. There is only one original painting of the Mona Lisa, and that's what makes it worth the big bucks. If someone did an original computer graphics work of equal artistic quality ... well, that's still only so many bits of information. Anyone who effectively duplicates the bits has the original (as far as anyone can tell from an artistic viewpoint).
As far as beauty and artistry ... oh yeah, there's this one guy (working name Rochr) who has posted images that would take your breath away. What's unfair is that he should be making megabucks for his work, but I can promise you that the studios do not pay him on that scale. He can work for months on a single image -- because he makes all of his own models and textures -- and it shows. Me?? I make most of my own textures, but my modelling skills are not a tenth of his -- and it shows.
And, thank you Zubaz.
The medium of computer graphics lends itself too easily to reproduction ... and perfect reproduction I might add. There is only one original painting of the Mona Lisa, and that's what makes it worth the big bucks. If someone did an original computer graphics work of equal artistic quality ... well, that's still only so many bits of information. Anyone who effectively duplicates the bits has the original (as far as anyone can tell from an artistic viewpoint).
As far as beauty and artistry ... oh yeah, there's this one guy (working name Rochr) who has posted images that would take your breath away. What's unfair is that he should be making megabucks for his work, but I can promise you that the studios do not pay him on that scale. He can work for months on a single image -- because he makes all of his own models and textures -- and it shows. Me?? I make most of my own textures, but my modelling skills are not a tenth of his -- and it shows.
And, thank you Zubaz.
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Reply #221 Monday, February 18, 2008 3:11 AM
Slider was released with a demo...it got 1 comment I think.
My personal best skin, my favorite...was free.