Never Mind
Thursday, November 15, 2007 by Z71 | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
Removed by me. Didn't want to upset anyone.
Edit:
It was never my intention to harm Wincustomize or the community.
The matter has been discussed, by Zoomba and I, with a very "agreeable" compromise.
Thank you.
Edit:
It was never my intention to harm Wincustomize or the community.
The matter has been discussed, by Zoomba and I, with a very "agreeable" compromise.
Thank you.
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ZubaZ
Reply #42 Friday, November 16, 2007 12:09 AM
I know you know that.
I don't beleive Stardock doesn't want you, or any Master, to be successful. Your success is partly their success though visability for both parties and sales of apps and skins. Everyone can win here.
Reply #42 Friday, November 16, 2007 12:09 AM
The Master Program is just that, in it's simplest terms... Exposure..in return for a % of profit.
The Master program is so much more than selling skins John. The master program is about being the leaders of the community. It's about setting a bar taht others can strive for. Selling work is an earned right that happens to go along with it.I know you know that.
I don't beleive Stardock doesn't want you, or any Master, to be successful. Your success is partly their success though visability for both parties and sales of apps and skins. Everyone can win here.
basj
Reply #43 Friday, November 16, 2007 12:36 AM
Reply #43 Friday, November 16, 2007 12:36 AM
Hmmm.. interesting discussion 
Don't mind me I am just reading it.
Don't mind me I am just reading it.
DigitalCHET
Reply #44 Friday, November 16, 2007 12:55 AM
A self-imposed limit is just that and does not extend to others, else it's not a valid statement. Just because a rule applies to one individual does not mean that that individual has an official mandate to apply it to others. Aside from "suggesting" or offering one's opinion there is little else one can do. On the other hand, imposing it on others becomes a whole different ball game.
As I understand it, the Master Skinners program is offered as an optional avenue for skinners to employ and profit from when distributing their skins. No skinner is obligated to use it and their decision not to do so should not have a negative impact on their status within the community or their ability to showcase their work in a respectful and acceptable manner to the community. Sure it may at times seem silly for one to not take advantage of such an opportunity it but that depends on the individual and how they conduct their business, if it is indeed a business.
From a business point of view, it would seem the program is offered as an additional, but not primary source of revenue. It's an encouragement rather than mandate, and a perk of being an active part of the community rather than being a job.
By doing that, the business supports the skinning community as well as supporting the viability of the program itself. As Zubaz said, it's a win-win situation for both the community and the business.
In addition, reiterating my earlier statement, just by selling skins whether on Wincustomize or on your own personal sites, you're promoting the product itself. That should not be overlooked.
The main point of all this is that a good skinner who can bring and retain a committed audience by their active participation in and without the community, as both Z71 and John do, should have the opportunity to showcase their work to those who watch their progress.
As long as that is done within the accepted parameters of courtesy and common-sense as well as the adherence to the site's known rules, it should flow smoothly for everyone. Of course outside of this it's up to the hosts to provide guidance and moderation where necessary.
Reply #44 Friday, November 16, 2007 12:55 AM
I posted earlier because I have self imposed a limit on what I will do as far as bringing traffic from WC to my own site..
A self-imposed limit is just that and does not extend to others, else it's not a valid statement. Just because a rule applies to one individual does not mean that that individual has an official mandate to apply it to others. Aside from "suggesting" or offering one's opinion there is little else one can do. On the other hand, imposing it on others becomes a whole different ball game.
As I understand it, the Master Skinners program is offered as an optional avenue for skinners to employ and profit from when distributing their skins. No skinner is obligated to use it and their decision not to do so should not have a negative impact on their status within the community or their ability to showcase their work in a respectful and acceptable manner to the community. Sure it may at times seem silly for one to not take advantage of such an opportunity it but that depends on the individual and how they conduct their business, if it is indeed a business.
From a business point of view, it would seem the program is offered as an additional, but not primary source of revenue. It's an encouragement rather than mandate, and a perk of being an active part of the community rather than being a job.
By doing that, the business supports the skinning community as well as supporting the viability of the program itself. As Zubaz said, it's a win-win situation for both the community and the business.
In addition, reiterating my earlier statement, just by selling skins whether on Wincustomize or on your own personal sites, you're promoting the product itself. That should not be overlooked.
The main point of all this is that a good skinner who can bring and retain a committed audience by their active participation in and without the community, as both Z71 and John do, should have the opportunity to showcase their work to those who watch their progress.
As long as that is done within the accepted parameters of courtesy and common-sense as well as the adherence to the site's known rules, it should flow smoothly for everyone. Of course outside of this it's up to the hosts to provide guidance and moderation where necessary.
Vampothika
Reply #45 Friday, November 16, 2007 1:18 AM
Reply #45 Friday, November 16, 2007 1:18 AM
im confused (and i read the whole thing) are you allowed to advertise that you have another site? what about when John puts the maxstyles logo on his skins?...is that okay? i want clarification too.......i know we had a whole post for when maxstyles came out, advertising that it was here (and i was part of the team at that time)...... so yeah, im confused.... 
I sort of got the feeling it was cool to let people know you had a site, cause we are all part of a skinning community....you kind of take your fans with you, but at the same time you stay here also.......(shrugs)
also, another question pops into my head concerning maxstyles (dont take this the wrong way John, cause it AINT personal)
how come when a maxstyles skin is released here, its called a 'community skin' when the majority of the work is done by people who work for john and get paid for it..... i thought a community skin was done by a group of people who get together and work on a skin, do it for free, and submit it. sorry......gotta know this one.........
I sort of got the feeling it was cool to let people know you had a site, cause we are all part of a skinning community....you kind of take your fans with you, but at the same time you stay here also.......(shrugs)
also, another question pops into my head concerning maxstyles (dont take this the wrong way John, cause it AINT personal)
how come when a maxstyles skin is released here, its called a 'community skin' when the majority of the work is done by people who work for john and get paid for it..... i thought a community skin was done by a group of people who get together and work on a skin, do it for free, and submit it. sorry......gotta know this one.........
basj
Reply #46 Friday, November 16, 2007 2:04 AM
Err I feel I need to address this one. I believe I speak for all Maxstyles team that we do not work for John and he did not pay us anything. Taking my latest Whitefire2 Windowblinds as example, I did not get a single cent out of it and I don't think anybody else who produce skin to go with it get anything either other than enjoy sharing our work with the community. I believe that is a "community skin". No?
Reply #46 Friday, November 16, 2007 2:04 AM
how come when a maxstyles skin is released here, its called a 'community skin' when the majority of the work is done by people who work for john and get paid for it..... i thought a community skin was done by a group of people who get together and work on a skin, do it for free, and submit it. sorry......gotta know this one.........
Err I feel I need to address this one. I believe I speak for all Maxstyles team that we do not work for John and he did not pay us anything. Taking my latest Whitefire2 Windowblinds as example, I did not get a single cent out of it and I don't think anybody else who produce skin to go with it get anything either other than enjoy sharing our work with the community
. I believe that is a "community skin". No?
Vampothika
Reply #47 Friday, November 16, 2007 3:09 AM
Reply #47 Friday, November 16, 2007 3:09 AM
I wasnt reffering to your skin Bas.............
rovecat
Reply #48 Friday, November 16, 2007 4:17 AM
Reply #48 Friday, November 16, 2007 4:17 AM
WindowBlinds SkinPack Now Available from SkinPlant:https://forums.wincustomize.com/?forumid=153&aid=38174
Universe Metal:https://forums.wincustomize.com/?forumid=153&aid=37504
Pixtudio does it again !:https://forums.wincustomize.com/?forumid=153&aid=38281
Pixtudio release new exclusive suite, PixOS:https://forums.wincustomize.com/?forumid=153&aid=37877
Just because someone less intellgent making fuss,doesn't mean Z71 or other senior memebers should follow suit. I was disappointed that even 2 Admins didn't know above threads,although that time doesn't has "Master" status yet for sale on indivisual skins.
Universe Metal:https://forums.wincustomize.com/?forumid=153&aid=37504
Pixtudio does it again !:https://forums.wincustomize.com/?forumid=153&aid=38281
Pixtudio release new exclusive suite, PixOS:https://forums.wincustomize.com/?forumid=153&aid=37877
Just because someone less intellgent making fuss,doesn't mean Z71 or other senior memebers should follow suit. I was disappointed that even 2 Admins didn't know above threads,although that time doesn't has "Master" status yet for sale on indivisual skins.
NightTrainthedark
Reply #49 Friday, November 16, 2007 6:09 AM
Reply #49 Friday, November 16, 2007 6:09 AM
The second that financial gain via the Master Program was introduced to skinning, the dynamics changed. The terms of service should be altered to keep the Master program in control and working in the best interest of the community and WC subscribers.
Allowing people to advertise (no matter what it is)is not even a slippery slope. It's a direct road to failure IMHO.
"Foot in the door" techniques of advertising are just sitting their waiting to get in once the door is open. People will resort to the lowest of lows when it comes to making money and to be honest, I don't trust any single one of you when it comes to business.
Allowing people to advertise (no matter what it is)is not even a slippery slope. It's a direct road to failure IMHO.
"Foot in the door" techniques of advertising are just sitting their waiting to get in once the door is open. People will resort to the lowest of lows when it comes to making money and to be honest, I don't trust any single one of you when it comes to business.
DigitalCHET
Reply #50 Friday, November 16, 2007 6:09 AM
Less intelligent? As far as I can see, no one here has shown themselves to be more or less intelligent than anyone else. Pretty much everyone has contributed constructively and respectfully, albeit perhaps somewhat passionately at times. There's no need to resort to bringing anyone down or questioning their intelligence.
Everybody is entitled to their opinion and comments but please keep it civil. Thanks.
Reply #50 Friday, November 16, 2007 6:09 AM
Just because someone less intellgent making fuss,
Less intelligent? As far as I can see, no one here has shown themselves to be more or less intelligent than anyone else. Pretty much everyone has contributed constructively and respectfully, albeit perhaps somewhat passionately at times. There's no need to resort to bringing anyone down or questioning their intelligence.
Everybody is entitled to their opinion and comments but please keep it civil. Thanks.
DigitalCHET
Reply #51 Friday, November 16, 2007 6:16 AM
That's why the site has moderators.
Reply #51 Friday, November 16, 2007 6:16 AM
The second that financial gain via the Master Program was introduced to skinning, the dynamics changed. The terms of service should be altered to keep the Master program in control and working in the best interest of the community and WC subscribers.
Allowing people to advertise (no matter what it is)is not even a slippery slope. It's a direct road to failure IMHO.
"Foot in the door" techniques of advertising are just sitting their waiting to get in once the door is open. People will resort to the lowest of lows when it comes to making money and to be honest, I don't trust any single one of you when it comes to business.
Allowing people to advertise (no matter what it is)is not even a slippery slope. It's a direct road to failure IMHO.
"Foot in the door" techniques of advertising are just sitting their waiting to get in once the door is open. People will resort to the lowest of lows when it comes to making money and to be honest, I don't trust any single one of you when it comes to business.
That's why the site has moderators.
ArileenDesign
Reply #53 Friday, November 16, 2007 6:59 AM
Reply #53 Friday, November 16, 2007 6:59 AM
Just my two cents:
IF masters skinners can advertise in the site for their work on their own site ,
you have two options:
first one every ones keep making a post every month (or 2 weeks ) and it's all good (for me at least. I don't see any problems if it's on control).
Second you'll see (and i don't believe it) a post per day or a bump per day or whatever really sad and their sign/logo/name every where. (thought i think too many advertising kill sales)
Idea:
Why not make a separeted section in WC for master skins i means like "Home, Gallery, Master Skins ,Articles, Forums, Help, Shop" it'll be more easy to search them and with a subsection in this section where Masters could also make articles to advertise to their sites and works (here or out).
Those articles will be moderated like those in front pages and when allowed go also in forums (by a cross over)
IF masters skinners can advertise in the site for their work on their own site ,
you have two options:
first one every ones keep making a post every month (or 2 weeks
) and it's all good (for me at least. I don't see any problems if it's on control). Second you'll see (and i don't believe it) a post per day or a bump per day or whatever really sad and their sign/logo/name every where. (thought i think too many advertising kill sales)
Idea:
Why not make a separeted section in WC for master skins i means like "Home, Gallery, Master Skins ,Articles, Forums, Help, Shop" it'll be more easy to search them and with a subsection in this section where Masters could also make articles to advertise to their sites and works (here or out).
Those articles will be moderated like those in front pages and when allowed go also in forums (by a cross over)
Jafo
Reply #54 Friday, November 16, 2007 7:00 AM
Reply #54 Friday, November 16, 2007 7:00 AM
In real life instances of Stardock co-existing within the greater skinning/skinnables community the perfect example was and still is JCRabbit's Winstep, something that could be seen as a direct competitor to Object Desktop, etc., yet is allowed/encouraged as newsworthy for Wincustomize.com to 'promote'.
The simplest reasoning for this has been Frogboy's well known reference to the adage 'a high tide raises every boat'....[to translate that means that promoting one facet of skinning can and does benefit all facets as public awareness is enhanced].
Now this makes a good argument for the status quo regarding Masters and promotion of offsite works...
However, for one to become a 'Master' there needs to have been a demonstrated commitment to skinning in general AND Wincustomize.com in particular...both culminating in the ability to sell works publicly from such a high-profile site as Wincustomize which would guarantee reasonable success.
This currently does not prohibit any form of third-party commercialism but it would be expected that such Masters would sensibly avail themselves of the bestowed access/opportunity rather than expect some form of superior [commercial] success rate on a private site - no matter where the 'advertising' is placed.
If, however it is determined that policy needs to be in place to 'limit' off-site publicity then that can/will be decided by those responsible for the commercial viability/sustainability of the site, namely Stardock.
I don't actually see all this as an issue...as instances exist/ed in the past where others have plied their wares...eg...Pixtudio...The Skins Factory, and likely any/every other commercial skinning co.
The only dynamic which has changed is the current option available to 'Masters' to sell works here on Wincustomize as well as elsewhere...
vStyler
Reply #55 Friday, November 16, 2007 7:03 AM
I stated in it's simplest terms, I realize its a lot more but i believe the main motivation behind attaining it is financial gain.. if anyone disagree's with that they may need to brush up on their human nature. I understand it also comes with perks and responsibilities and I personally have done every I can to live up to those.
I never imposed anything. Please don't make out like I did.
It's my job or a good part of it.
Because it is FOR the community, no one gets paid for it and no one works "for" me.. they work with me and I assure you are all happy to be a part of our team. Please if your going to bring something into the conversation, do your homework as this comment basically belittled everyone who has been bringing WC these community suites. Also any announcement of a Maxstyles suite as being a community suite has been done via admin at WC and its just fine with me as that is exactly what it is. Also, yes I announced Maxstyles when I first re-opened it for WB skins..There was ZERO for sale on the site at that time.
Ahh.. Nicolas..good to see you again..just joined today..eh?... but know all the previous skins for sale posts and again can't help but to insult me. You don't hide yourself very well my friendly stalker. if your going to call someone out as less intelligent, learn how to spell.
Lastly, it blows me away that I try to stick up for doing the right thing and end up looking like the bad guy.
Reply #55 Friday, November 16, 2007 7:03 AM
The Master program is so much more than selling skins John.
I stated in it's simplest terms, I realize its a lot more but i believe the main motivation behind attaining it is financial gain.. if anyone disagree's with that they may need to brush up on their human nature. I understand it also comes with perks and responsibilities and I personally have done every I can to live up to those.
imposing it on others
I never imposed anything. Please don't make out like I did.
a perk of being an active part of the community rather than being a job.
It's my job or a good part of it.
how come when a maxstyles skin is released here, its called a 'community skin' when the majority of the work is done by people who work for john and get paid for it..... i thought a community skin was done by a group of people who get together and work on a skin, do it for free, and submit it. sorry......gotta know this one.........
Because it is FOR the community, no one gets paid for it and no one works "for" me.. they work with me and I assure you are all happy to be a part of our team. Please if your going to bring something into the conversation, do your homework as this comment basically belittled everyone who has been bringing WC these community suites. Also any announcement of a Maxstyles suite as being a community suite has been done via admin at WC and its just fine with me as that is exactly what it is. Also, yes I announced Maxstyles when I first re-opened it for WB skins..There was ZERO for sale on the site at that time.
Just because someone less intellgent making fuss,
Ahh.. Nicolas..good to see you again..just joined today..eh?... but know all the previous skins for sale posts and again can't help but to insult me. You don't hide yourself very well my friendly stalker. if your going to call someone out as less intelligent, learn how to spell.
"Foot in the door" techniques of advertising are just sitting their waiting to get in once the door is open. People will resort to the lowest of lows when it comes to making money
Night Train nailed it IMO.
X2Lastly, it blows me away that I try to stick up for doing the right thing and end up looking like the bad guy.
NightTrainthedark
Reply #56 Friday, November 16, 2007 7:09 AM
except... a low tide has to happen for a high tide to occur.
Reply #56 Friday, November 16, 2007 7:09 AM
'a high tide raises every boat'
except... a low tide has to happen for a high tide to occur.
vStyler
Reply #57 Friday, November 16, 2007 7:12 AM
Then I guess that settles it. I was wrong. The door is basically open.
Reply #57 Friday, November 16, 2007 7:12 AM
I don't actually see all this as an issue...as instances exist/ed in the past where others have plied their wares...eg...Pixtudio...The Skins Factory, and likely any/every other commercial skinning co.
Then I guess that settles it. I was wrong. The door is basically open.
NightTrainthedark
Reply #58 Friday, November 16, 2007 7:13 AM
Reply #58 Friday, November 16, 2007 7:13 AM
Post a screenshot in the screenshot section showing the work and give links to the offsite downloads. As long as the forums don't become "craig's list" it should all work out.
I also wonder why Vstyler doesn't get credit for doing/ saying what he thinks is best for the communtiy. He has alot to gain by being able to promote his work yet he argues against such actions. Odd...
I also wonder why Vstyler doesn't get credit for doing/ saying what he thinks is best for the communtiy. He has alot to gain by being able to promote his work yet he argues against such actions. Odd...
messiah1
Reply #59 Friday, November 16, 2007 7:27 AM
Reply #59 Friday, November 16, 2007 7:27 AM
I'm late to the thread but was reading and this jab caught me...
We are a community of skinners. John just pooled our talents together and created a team. I don't "work" for John. John and other members of MaxStyles allow me to create skins FOR their WindowBlinds. I don't receive ANY monetary gains from my work. Just recognition and a chance to provide a needed service. John has afforded me the opportunity to sell stuff on his site, but if you go check out the premium page, you'll note that I don't have anything to offer there. I wrestled with this for awhile and decided that I'd do better to wait and hone my skills before offering up something for sale. Will I in the future? Possibly, but that remains to be seen.
how come when a maxstyles skin is released here, its called a 'community skin' when the majority of the work is done by people who work for john and get paid for it..... i thought a community skin was done by a group of people who get together and work on a skin, do it for free, and submit it. sorry
We are a community of skinners. John just pooled our talents together and created a team. I don't "work" for John. John and other members of MaxStyles allow me to create skins FOR their WindowBlinds. I don't receive ANY monetary gains from my work. Just recognition and a chance to provide a needed service. John has afforded me the opportunity to sell stuff on his site, but if you go check out the premium page, you'll note that I don't have anything to offer there. I wrestled with this for awhile and decided that I'd do better to wait and hone my skills before offering up something for sale. Will I in the future? Possibly, but that remains to be seen.
ZubaZ
Reply #60 Friday, November 16, 2007 7:30 AM
Again, what an interesting and enlightening discussion.. Thanks again everyone.
The interesting thing for me is that everyone here is arguing their point with the best interests of WC in mind. That's what makes folks Masters. Thank you all.
I think the moderators here can handle any "foot in the door" and the "slippery slope" issues if we needed to. I however, think that these same folks who have become masters will police themselves more than the moderators would (as vStyler has done and many others before). They don't want to look like spammers, right?
Reply #60 Friday, November 16, 2007 7:30 AM
I don't actually see all this as an issue...as instances exist/ed in the past where others have plied their wares...eg...Pixtudio...The Skins Factory, and likely any/every other commercial skinning co.
Then I guess that settles it. I was wrong. The door is basically open.
Then I guess that settles it. I was wrong. The door is basically open.
Again, what an interesting and enlightening discussion.. Thanks again everyone.
The interesting thing for me is that everyone here is arguing their point with the best interests of WC in mind. That's what makes folks Masters. Thank you all.
I think the moderators here can handle any "foot in the door" and the "slippery slope" issues if we needed to. I however, think that these same folks who have become masters will police themselves more than the moderators would (as vStyler has done and many others before). They don't want to look like spammers, right?
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Reply #41 Thursday, November 15, 2007 11:55 PM
What an interesting discussion this is...
So.. your saying that Stardock would not be opposed to posting a "skin for sale" off site by a WC master skinner because it falls under "skinning news"?
If yes.. then The Master skinner program may as well be terminated..
I posted earlier because I have self imposed a limit on what I will do as far as bringing traffic from WC to my own site..Naturally, anyone with half a glass of business sense would rather have 100% profit rather than split those profits with another entity that is providing exposure.. The Master Program is just that, in it's simplest terms... Exposure..in return for a % of profit. Seems like letting folks use WC as their own private classified ad would cut out much of the motivation behind attaining Master status would it not?
If any skinner can post their wares here without paying the obligatory piper then why wouldn't they? The difference could be in the tens of thousands of dollars yearly. Thats not peanuts.
I stand by what I've said all through this thread.. If Stardock allows this after an ammended TOS, I'll be shocked.
I look forward to clarification that is clear and void of ambiguity.