Protest
Sunday, March 4, 2007 by Bushman | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
I've been a subscriber to WC since damn near the beginning (I've only been skinning for about 2.5 years) but after learning about yesterdays tragic loss of 3 skinners from this site and the way things were handled I've decided to not re-new my WC subscribtion any more and I will no longer support WC by adding any more skins. I am apalled at how Brad and others treated the skinners because of their beliefs. Now before anybody tries to make more of this than what I am saying,let me say it so it is very clear. I am not threating anybody with anything, I am just stating my intentions and reasons. I'm not saying if you don't do this I'll do that. I'm not making any requests, no demands, favors, nothing, at this point there is nothing that will change things. Brads actions/words and the actions/words of all those who followed his lead, plus I finally understand the rankings (Master, Journeyman et.), (here I thought they were given because of the work an indivdual did, now I understand that's only a small part of it),are my reasons.
Now if someone feels the need to bash me for my decision, save it, it just brings out the child in ya. I'm not asking to have my skins removed unless someone feels the need to do that, I can't stop you. I just ren-newed my subscribtion in Jan for the next 2 years so I expect all privileges my WC subscribtion allows, so don't go messing with me in that area or it will get legal (no threat, just a fact).
I didn't write this to argue with anybody about who is right or wrong. All I'm doing is expressing my decisions and why. This place has changed some for the good, some for the bad and unfortunately recently there's been more bad. This is a great website and it's helped many people to become great artists and it has been a pioneer in skinning so there's still hope that things will change around but there's a lot of work to be done.
Now if someone feels the need to bash me for my decision, save it, it just brings out the child in ya. I'm not asking to have my skins removed unless someone feels the need to do that, I can't stop you. I just ren-newed my subscribtion in Jan for the next 2 years so I expect all privileges my WC subscribtion allows, so don't go messing with me in that area or it will get legal (no threat, just a fact).
I didn't write this to argue with anybody about who is right or wrong. All I'm doing is expressing my decisions and why. This place has changed some for the good, some for the bad and unfortunately recently there's been more bad. This is a great website and it's helped many people to become great artists and it has been a pioneer in skinning so there's still hope that things will change around but there's a lot of work to be done.
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BX
Reply #2 Sunday, March 4, 2007 12:05 PM
Reply #2 Sunday, March 4, 2007 12:05 PM
The fact is, you are free to express your feelings and take your decisions so as the policy of WC. You can express, write, and take what you think is right and no one will gonna bash you except it voilets the right of the freedome of fellow members. Things starts to get bad when you start trying to blackmail and impose your will that if you don't act as I want, I will do this and that and such behaviour is simply unbearable by most of people.
Those three people were (are) the assets of skinning community but the reason behind their exilation was the same act (as for as I have understood).
If you want to leave, you are free to opt for. I personally do not wish to let you (the those three) go. But if you wish, I will have to accept.
Those three people were (are) the assets of skinning community but the reason behind their exilation was the same act (as for as I have understood).
If you want to leave, you are free to opt for. I personally do not wish to let you (the those three) go. But if you wish, I will have to accept.
Bushman
Reply #3 Sunday, March 4, 2007 12:14 PM
Why is everybody so intent on making this some sort of blackmail, or that someone is trying to impose their will and how the hell does it violet the freedom of fellow members?
I made this statement because it needed to be told and because I do have the right to express my feelings about what happend that's why.
If you want to make this into anything other than what it is (a Protest statement) then you need to get a life.
Reply #3 Sunday, March 4, 2007 12:14 PM
The fact is, you are free to express your feelings and take your decisions so as the policy of WC. You can express, write, and take what you think is right and no one will gonna bash you except it voilets the right of the freedome of fellow members. Things starts to get bad when you start trying to blackmail and impose your will that if you don't act as I want, I will do this and that and such behaviour is simply unbearable by most of people.
Why is everybody so intent on making this some sort of blackmail, or that someone is trying to impose their will and how the hell does it violet the freedom of fellow members?
I made this statement because it needed to be told and because I do have the right to express my feelings about what happend that's why.
If you want to make this into anything other than what it is (a Protest statement) then you need to get a life.
ZubaZ
Reply #4 Sunday, March 4, 2007 12:29 PM
I don't want to argue with you. You want to leave, or not post new works, or pull your works that's up to you. But there really was no NEED to tell the community that you were not going to support the site like you used to.
Reply #4 Sunday, March 4, 2007 12:29 PM
I made this statement because it needed to be told
No it didn't.If you want to make this into anything other than what it is (a Protest statement) then you need to get a life.
Look at YOUR title. Who made this into a "protest? Who needs a life? 
I don't want to argue with you. You want to leave, or not post new works, or pull your works that's up to you. But there really was no NEED to tell the community that you were not going to support the site like you used to.
Z71
Reply #5 Sunday, March 4, 2007 1:21 PM
Sorry, where I'm from, that's a threat. Should have never been said. This whole post was a "look at me" thread.
You could have just let it go and not said anything, but you had to "stir the pot" instead.
Sad.
Reply #5 Sunday, March 4, 2007 1:21 PM
so don't go messing with me in that area or it will get legal (no threat, just a fact).
Sorry, where I'm from, that's a threat. Should have never been said. This whole post was a "look at me" thread.
You could have just let it go and not said anything, but you had to "stir the pot" instead.
Sad.
Bushman
Reply #6 Sunday, March 4, 2007 2:15 PM
Reply #6 Sunday, March 4, 2007 2:15 PM
That's just what everybody expects Z, just let it go. Well letting it go has gotten no where. Time in time again we are supposed to turn our back and say nothing but when we do, this is what happends. No more from me. 
SirSmiley
Reply #7 Sunday, March 4, 2007 2:24 PM
Reply #7 Sunday, March 4, 2007 2:24 PM
I admire your commitment to your belief's but, don't try to impose them on me or anyone else. By posting this in the forum that is the signal you are sending even though it may not be your intention.
Using the same irrational attitude that started all this I could say that your user name offends me. However, the negative connotation of your user name wasn't the first thing to enter my mind. Mostly because of my love of the outdoors.
Then why would you not post this on your personal page to explain why you have pulled all your skins.
This is a threat, just because you end it with the term "no threat" doesn't make it such.
Why is it that when someone happens to agree with Brad that everyone turns it into ass kissing or following his lead?
Using the same irrational attitude that started all this I could say that your user name offends me. However, the negative connotation of your user name wasn't the first thing to enter my mind. Mostly because of my love of the outdoors.
All I'm doing is expressing my decisions and why
Then why would you not post this on your personal page to explain why you have pulled all your skins.
so don't go messing with me in that area or it will get legal (no threat, just a fact).
This is a threat, just because you end it with the term "no threat" doesn't make it such.
Brads actions/words and the actions/words of all those who followed his lead
Why is it that when someone happens to agree with Brad that everyone turns it into ass kissing or following his lead?
SirSmiley
Reply #8 Sunday, March 4, 2007 2:40 PM
Reply #8 Sunday, March 4, 2007 2:40 PM
There's one thing that I can't figure out. If the people who are leaving because they don't like that they didn't get their way (even though the community rules were clear)are serious about this community then why not try to have the rule(s) changed?
Would that not have been a more pro-active stance? You could have started a poll to have the rule changed to indicate something like no screenshots should include people in general. If the result of the poll had been an resounding no would people have then made the decision to leave or to accept democracy in action?
Would that not have been a more pro-active stance? You could have started a poll to have the rule changed to indicate something like no screenshots should include people in general. If the result of the poll had been an resounding no would people have then made the decision to leave or to accept democracy in action?
CerebroJD
Reply #9 Sunday, March 4, 2007 2:50 PM
Reply #9 Sunday, March 4, 2007 2:50 PM
I think we've determined that those who have left, or are threatening to leave (because thats what this is, really), have shown that they're not necessarily interested in the 'democratic' approach to this problem. It's "all or nothing", I suppose... and as a result, I think we're going to lose artists.
As with any conflict of interest, there are always offended parties, as unintentional as it may be. Its unfortunate that members of this family we call WinCustomize have taken such offense to a simple screenshot, but perhaps its an indication of greater problems that must be dealt with.
At any rate, I will miss the contributions that these members have given to our community, but I wish them good luck in future endeavours.
As with any conflict of interest, there are always offended parties, as unintentional as it may be. Its unfortunate that members of this family we call WinCustomize have taken such offense to a simple screenshot, but perhaps its an indication of greater problems that must be dealt with.
At any rate, I will miss the contributions that these members have given to our community, but I wish them good luck in future endeavours.
Bushman
Reply #10 Sunday, March 4, 2007 5:36 PM
Reply #10 Sunday, March 4, 2007 5:36 PM
This has nothing to do with rules or anything else like that. I have no problems with WC as a whole it's a great place something that I wanted to be a part of. The ss that started this all doesn't even bother me. My complaint/problem is with really one person but saddly others feel the same way he does. I just don't like the way things were handled by Brad (his attitude with it) to be more precise. I think it was wrong and I'm speaking out about it that's what this is but everybody is intent on making this out to be more.
I am using my "democratic" right to free speach by doing this. It's a PROTEST something that is our right to do if we feel things are not right. Now I tried to email Brad to let him know personally (which I've done before) but I can't so this my way of expressing my concern so stop trying to make this look like I'm extorting something from WC.
I am using my "democratic" right to free speach by doing this. It's a PROTEST something that is our right to do if we feel things are not right. Now I tried to email Brad to let him know personally (which I've done before) but I can't so this my way of expressing my concern so stop trying to make this look like I'm extorting something from WC.
Bebi Bulma
Reply #11 Sunday, March 4, 2007 5:45 PM
Reply #11 Sunday, March 4, 2007 5:45 PM
This whole mess is turning into such a joke, honestly.
And by the way, the right to free speech and the first amendment can't exactly be enforced here, it's a privately owned site and as you've noticed, Brad can choose how and when to enforce it at his own discretion.
At any rate, hasta la vista.
And by the way, the right to free speech and the first amendment can't exactly be enforced here, it's a privately owned site and as you've noticed, Brad can choose how and when to enforce it at his own discretion.
At any rate, hasta la vista.
Bushman
Reply #12 Sunday, March 4, 2007 5:51 PM
I guess not
Reply #12 Sunday, March 4, 2007 5:51 PM
And by the way, the right to free speech and the first amendment can't exactly be enforced here, it's a privately owned site and as you've noticed, Brad can choose how and when to enforce it at his own discretion.
At any rate, hasta la vista.
At any rate, hasta la vista.
I guess not
PoSmedley
Reply #13 Sunday, March 4, 2007 6:19 PM
Reply #13 Sunday, March 4, 2007 6:19 PM
Sigh.
Where does it all end?
Bushman, without getting into the right and wrong of anything...stripping all this down to it's bare minimum..
A very interesting discussion has developed from all of this. Granted, not everyone is taking the high road in their posts, but it's a discussion none the less. And discussion may or may not bring about change.
If you care enough about the state of the community, please, care enough to stay and see if you can help bring about the change you want or be part of just taking the discussion into a constructive direction.
One...I like your work and respect you.
Two...it would be a shame to see anyone else go.
I firmly believe, from own experience here (shorter than most, granted)...good and bad...that all of this can and will be resolved to everyone's satisfaction. If I am wrong, so be it. There will still and always be people here that can benefit from your experience and talent.
Please, don't take this the wrong way, (even I got to a point where I wanted to say screw it and leave), but it would be (and would have been for me to do the same) selfish. For me, I would have only been thinking of myself and not of the few friends I have here...or of other's who will come and want a stupid 'rare icon request'...or the people who may want some tips from you. You've given me good advice before.
I hope you will reconsider.
Where does it all end?
Bushman, without getting into the right and wrong of anything...stripping all this down to it's bare minimum..
A very interesting discussion has developed from all of this. Granted, not everyone is taking the high road in their posts, but it's a discussion none the less. And discussion may or may not bring about change.
If you care enough about the state of the community, please, care enough to stay and see if you can help bring about the change you want or be part of just taking the discussion into a constructive direction.
One...I like your work and respect you.
Two...it would be a shame to see anyone else go.
I firmly believe, from own experience here (shorter than most, granted)...good and bad...that all of this can and will be resolved to everyone's satisfaction. If I am wrong, so be it. There will still and always be people here that can benefit from your experience and talent.
Please, don't take this the wrong way, (even I got to a point where I wanted to say screw it and leave), but it would be (and would have been for me to do the same) selfish. For me, I would have only been thinking of myself and not of the few friends I have here...or of other's who will come and want a stupid 'rare icon request'...or the people who may want some tips from you. You've given me good advice before.
I hope you will reconsider.
ArileenDesign
Reply #14 Sunday, March 4, 2007 6:29 PM
Reply #14 Sunday, March 4, 2007 6:29 PM
i think the best way in a site like this one to change something is to stay and talk about his opinion in friendship.
Thus stay or not stay but if you want to leave here now or in 2 years why make this post if not get a reaction (not a:
) just build a real discussion
i also like your work and your nice comments and i think it's silly to see an other people leave in an other place. But that's your right and i respect it.
Thus stay or not stay but if you want to leave here now or in 2 years why make this post if not get a reaction (not a:
any requests, no demands, favors
) just build a real discussion
i also like your work and your nice comments and i think it's silly to see an other people leave in an other place. But that's your right and i respect it.
seldomseen
Reply #15 Sunday, March 4, 2007 6:29 PM
Reply #15 Sunday, March 4, 2007 6:29 PM
I too hope so. Valued members of this community are just that: valued. I'd be really pleased to have the exodus come to a halt around here so we can pick up the pieces, see just what we've got, and move on. Hang in, it's the 'passing show', it'll just get different, everything always does.
Bebi Bulma
Reply #16 Sunday, March 4, 2007 6:32 PM
Reply #16 Sunday, March 4, 2007 6:32 PM
Maybe it's just me, but this seems to be the very thing Brad was trying to put a halt to in the first place. People trying to impose their will on others by some sort of protest, demonstration, threat, etc and then it becomes other members trying to placate that individual from leaving, withdrawing, etc. Should be interesting to see the big man's response.
Murex
Reply #19 Sunday, March 4, 2007 7:03 PM
Reply #19 Sunday, March 4, 2007 7:03 PM
Bushman
I Don't like the way Cindi and Troy were treated either. But This post and others like it won't help them. It just gives the ones that where behind Brads decision a chance to rehash every thing all over again. Not uploading work to WC won't make a difference to any one here Except your friends. There will always be some one new to take your place. It won't change a thing. I wish I knew what would. One person Can't change any thing. Never could never will. This just enforces what has been said by many Don't take it public. If you feel that strongly about the way they were treated Make a petition and have members sign it and turn it in to the administrators and then post the petition. Or maybe some one has a better idea . But This way will not do any thing...
I Don't like the way Cindi and Troy were treated either. But This post and others like it won't help them. It just gives the ones that where behind Brads decision a chance to rehash every thing all over again. Not uploading work to WC won't make a difference to any one here Except your friends. There will always be some one new to take your place. It won't change a thing. I wish I knew what would. One person Can't change any thing. Never could never will. This just enforces what has been said by many Don't take it public. If you feel that strongly about the way they were treated Make a petition and have members sign it and turn it in to the administrators and then post the petition. Or maybe some one has a better idea . But This way will not do any thing...
Cyberworld
Reply #20 Sunday, March 4, 2007 7:35 PM
Reply #20 Sunday, March 4, 2007 7:35 PM
Dear Bushman,
I'm sorry Cindi and Troy were kicked out of the site the worse way possible, but that comes with the site. Administration has the power, not the users, i guess that's why we are called to be end-users. As in most businesses losing a customer or two is not a problem. And since this is not your own business there is no absolute way to change things. I understand your feelings, but leaving is not that grave for anyone here. Silencing a matter is what is politically correct/desirable and in the end the goal for most site admins. The less headaches you create the better you get treated. And as you may see a large audience with popcorn has come to this theatrical scene, cause that is what really this is for most people, no more than an act. You feed the crowd, the crowd satiates and in a while the next best act draws the attention. It's not a matter of moral or ethics, the site does not work with those, as the basic fuel for it is the current income. It's just plain business. Don't go thinking too far, reality is much colder than you think. It's not the Age of Heroes, it's the Age of Business Men.
Yours with respect,
Cyberworld
I'm sorry Cindi and Troy were kicked out of the site the worse way possible, but that comes with the site. Administration has the power, not the users, i guess that's why we are called to be end-users. As in most businesses losing a customer or two is not a problem. And since this is not your own business there is no absolute way to change things. I understand your feelings, but leaving is not that grave for anyone here. Silencing a matter is what is politically correct/desirable and in the end the goal for most site admins. The less headaches you create the better you get treated. And as you may see a large audience with popcorn has come to this theatrical scene, cause that is what really this is for most people, no more than an act. You feed the crowd, the crowd satiates and in a while the next best act draws the attention. It's not a matter of moral or ethics, the site does not work with those, as the basic fuel for it is the current income. It's just plain business. Don't go thinking too far, reality is much colder than you think. It's not the Age of Heroes, it's the Age of Business Men.
Yours with respect,
Cyberworld
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Reply #1 Sunday, March 4, 2007 11:38 AM
Why the title you chose?
It seems to me that you are trying to cause more conflict which is the point of your "protest"
You're post didn't make anything better but may have made things even worse. What was/is your goal here?