Protest
Sunday, March 4, 2007 by Bushman | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
I've been a subscriber to WC since damn near the beginning (I've only been skinning for about 2.5 years) but after learning about yesterdays tragic loss of 3 skinners from this site and the way things were handled I've decided to not re-new my WC subscribtion any more and I will no longer support WC by adding any more skins. I am apalled at how Brad and others treated the skinners because of their beliefs. Now before anybody tries to make more of this than what I am saying,let me say it so it is very clear. I am not threating anybody with anything, I am just stating my intentions and reasons. I'm not saying if you don't do this I'll do that. I'm not making any requests, no demands, favors, nothing, at this point there is nothing that will change things. Brads actions/words and the actions/words of all those who followed his lead, plus I finally understand the rankings (Master, Journeyman et.), (here I thought they were given because of the work an indivdual did, now I understand that's only a small part of it),are my reasons.
Now if someone feels the need to bash me for my decision, save it, it just brings out the child in ya. I'm not asking to have my skins removed unless someone feels the need to do that, I can't stop you. I just ren-newed my subscribtion in Jan for the next 2 years so I expect all privileges my WC subscribtion allows, so don't go messing with me in that area or it will get legal (no threat, just a fact).
I didn't write this to argue with anybody about who is right or wrong. All I'm doing is expressing my decisions and why. This place has changed some for the good, some for the bad and unfortunately recently there's been more bad. This is a great website and it's helped many people to become great artists and it has been a pioneer in skinning so there's still hope that things will change around but there's a lot of work to be done.
Now if someone feels the need to bash me for my decision, save it, it just brings out the child in ya. I'm not asking to have my skins removed unless someone feels the need to do that, I can't stop you. I just ren-newed my subscribtion in Jan for the next 2 years so I expect all privileges my WC subscribtion allows, so don't go messing with me in that area or it will get legal (no threat, just a fact).
I didn't write this to argue with anybody about who is right or wrong. All I'm doing is expressing my decisions and why. This place has changed some for the good, some for the bad and unfortunately recently there's been more bad. This is a great website and it's helped many people to become great artists and it has been a pioneer in skinning so there's still hope that things will change around but there's a lot of work to be done.
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NightTrainthedark
Reply #22 Sunday, March 4, 2007 7:55 PM
Reply #22 Sunday, March 4, 2007 7:55 PM
You made your point.
(In a sincere tone) Now what?
(In a sincere tone) Now what?
PoSmedley
Reply #23 Sunday, March 4, 2007 8:10 PM
Reply #23 Sunday, March 4, 2007 8:10 PM
I say we all break out our throbbers and have at it!
WebGizmos
Reply #24 Sunday, March 4, 2007 8:13 PM
Where's the threat in this statement? Seems pretty clear to me that he's not asking or demanding anything...he's already made a decision (in protest) based on his feeling about how things were handled. As far as why he posted this here...he's been here quite a few years and I'm sure he has some fans/followers of his works...so it would seem he's also letting people know why he won't be uploading anything further...period...so just respect his decision. Why is that so hard? I don't like to see anyone leave either...but bashing him for his decision is not the way to go. I don't see that he was trying to start anything or cause any conflict...he's leaving because it was already started/caused elsewhere. I read his statement...understood it for what it was and that was that.
I hear everyone saying speak your mind...but it seems that when you do everyone starts ganging up on you and...
"tries to make more of this than what I am saying,"
He said very clearly....
"I am not threating anybody with anything, I am just stating my intentions and reasons. I'm not saying if you don't do this I'll do that. I'm not making any requests, no demands, favors, nothing"
What part of that was unclear?
Reply #24 Sunday, March 4, 2007 8:13 PM
after learning about yesterdays tragic loss of 3 skinners from this site and the way things were handled I've decided to not re-new my WC subscribtion any more and I will no longer support WC by adding any more skins. I am appalled at how Brad and others treated the skinners because of their beliefs. Now before anybody tries to make more of this than what I am saying, let me say it so it is very clear. I am not threating anybody with anything, I am just stating my intentions and reasons. I'm not saying if you don't do this I'll do that. I'm not making any requests, no demands, favors, nothing, at this point there is nothing that will change things.
Where's the threat in this statement? Seems pretty clear to me that he's not asking or demanding anything...he's already made a decision (in protest) based on his feeling about how things were handled. As far as why he posted this here...he's been here quite a few years and I'm sure he has some fans/followers of his works...so it would seem he's also letting people know why he won't be uploading anything further...period...so just respect his decision. Why is that so hard? I don't like to see anyone leave either...but bashing him for his decision is not the way to go. I don't see that he was trying to start anything or cause any conflict...he's leaving because it was already started/caused elsewhere. I read his statement...understood it for what it was and that was that.
I hear everyone saying speak your mind...but it seems that when you do everyone starts ganging up on you and...
"tries to make more of this than what I am saying,"
He said very clearly....
"I am not threating anybody with anything, I am just stating my intentions and reasons. I'm not saying if you don't do this I'll do that. I'm not making any requests, no demands, favors, nothing"
What part of that was unclear?
SirSmiley
Reply #25 Sunday, March 4, 2007 8:14 PM
again who's morals? who's ethics? Also, the last I heard this site wasn't exactly making money let alone breaking-even. From a pure cold business perspective after five years if a business isn't supporting itself that's usually the end of it. If the bottom line was the sole-functioning of this site then only paid customers/members would be aloud to post, participate, etc.
Reply #25 Sunday, March 4, 2007 8:14 PM
It's not a matter of moral or ethics, the site does not work with those, as the basic fuel for it is the current income. It's just plain business. Don't go thinking too far, reality is much colder than you think. It's not the Age of Heroes, it's the Age of Business Men.
again who's morals? who's ethics? Also, the last I heard this site wasn't exactly making money let alone breaking-even. From a pure cold business perspective after five years if a business isn't supporting itself that's usually the end of it. If the bottom line was the sole-functioning of this site then only paid customers/members would be aloud to post, participate, etc.
WebGizmos
Reply #26 Sunday, March 4, 2007 8:26 PM
I suppose this could be viewed as a threat which could have been expressed or handled differently. But I suspect this may be handled with a refund because if how is was stated.
What a tangled web we weave.
If there is one thing I've learned over the years here it is this...speak your mind...but choose your words very carefully.
Reply #26 Sunday, March 4, 2007 8:26 PM
I just ren-newed my subscription in Jan for the next 2 years so I expect all privileges my WC subscription allows, so don't go messing with me in that area or it will get legal (no threat, just a fact).
I suppose this could be viewed as a threat which could have been expressed or handled differently. But I suspect this may be handled with a refund because if how is was stated.
What a tangled web we weave.
If there is one thing I've learned over the years here it is this...speak your mind...but choose your words very carefully.
SirSmiley
Reply #27 Sunday, March 4, 2007 8:29 PM
I missed construed this previously and for that you have my profound apologies. Don't know why I even thought this was directed towards the community itself.
Can someone please explain to me exactly what Brad or Boopish did that is so wrong? They both brought up valid concerns & others seemed to be the ones who ran in an asinine way with it.
Reply #27 Sunday, March 4, 2007 8:29 PM
expect all privileges my WC subscribtion allows, so don't go messing with me in that area or it will get legal (no threat, just a fact).
I missed construed this previously and for that you have my profound apologies. Don't know why I even thought this was directed towards the community itself.
Can someone please explain to me exactly what Brad or Boopish did that is so wrong? They both brought up valid concerns & others seemed to be the ones who ran in an asinine way with it.
WebGizmos
Reply #28 Sunday, March 4, 2007 8:47 PM
Reply #28 Sunday, March 4, 2007 8:47 PM
Basically Sir Smiley...the whole thing should have been handled via email. Making something like this public just brings out the ugly in everyone. 
Fairyy~
Reply #29 Sunday, March 4, 2007 8:56 PM
And I'm sure you will check the forum every 5 minutes to see if and when Brad shows up - your thriving on all of this mayhem while some of us cringe at the thought of even looking at the forum anymore.
None of this is a joke what so ever. Its causing a strain on a lot of people that are divided on this issue.
Reply #29 Sunday, March 4, 2007 8:56 PM
Bebi: This whole mess is turning into such a joke, honestly.
And by the way, the right to free speech and the first amendment can't exactly be enforced here, it's a privately owned site and as you've noticed, Brad can choose how and when to enforce it at his own discretion.
At any rate, hasta la vista.
And by the way, the right to free speech and the first amendment can't exactly be enforced here, it's a privately owned site and as you've noticed, Brad can choose how and when to enforce it at his own discretion.
At any rate, hasta la vista.
Bebi: Should be interesting to see the big man's response.
And I'm sure you will check the forum every 5 minutes to see if and when Brad shows up - your thriving on all of this mayhem while some of us cringe at the thought of even looking at the forum anymore.
None of this is a joke what so ever. Its causing a strain on a lot of people that are divided on this issue.
Bebi Bulma
Reply #30 Sunday, March 4, 2007 9:43 PM
Reply #30 Sunday, March 4, 2007 9:43 PM
Exactly, that's my point. Everyone seems to be making such a huge deal out of something that would have much better have been dealt with through email, as WebGizmos just pointed out. If it had been dealt with through email, none of this mess would likely have happened and we all wouldn't be here going at each other's throats over who was right, who was wrong, who has the right to say whose beliefs should take precedence over other's, and so on.
Someone just mentioned in the original thread: "What you want is absolutely fair, as long as we follow YOUR beliefs." That pretty much sums it up for me. Can only please some of the people some of the time. There will always be someone who is offended by something. It's when threats start getting made "do as I say and what I want or I'll do this and that" is when it gets stupidly ridiculous.
Someone just mentioned in the original thread: "What you want is absolutely fair, as long as we follow YOUR beliefs." That pretty much sums it up for me. Can only please some of the people some of the time. There will always be someone who is offended by something. It's when threats start getting made "do as I say and what I want or I'll do this and that" is when it gets stupidly ridiculous.
seldomseen
Reply #31 Sunday, March 4, 2007 11:16 PM
Reply #31 Sunday, March 4, 2007 11:16 PM
I say we all break out our throbbers and have at it!
Frogboy
Reply #33 Sunday, March 4, 2007 11:55 PM
Reply #33 Sunday, March 4, 2007 11:55 PM
The difference is that we want a site where people feel free to discuss things they disagree with.
I do not, for instance, say "If you don't agree with me, I'll kick you off the site". I say, disagree with me or anyone else all you want, just be civil about it.
Where I draw the line is when someone says they're leaving, removes their stuff but lingers around to rally support to them of those who were on the fence but will take the offended person's side in order to placate them.
Remember, in the offensive screenshot thread, there was a debate going on and then when people removed their work, people came on and said "It's not worth losing 'valuable' members of the site so just do what they want." That's not the kind of environment we want to have.
Do you see the difference? It's a very important distinction. We aren't kicking anyone off. All we have done is made sure those who say they're leaving and taking their stuff with them actually do. We want people to not make idle threats in order to "get their way".
ArileenDesign
Reply #34 Monday, March 5, 2007 2:41 AM
that's the better idea i have eared since two days.
Reply #34 Monday, March 5, 2007 2:41 AM
I say, disagree with me or anyone else all you want, just be civil about it.
that's the better idea i have eared since two days.
Uvah
Reply #35 Monday, March 5, 2007 5:07 AM
Reply #35 Monday, March 5, 2007 5:07 AM
I never saw the thread in question so I really don't know what it was or what was seen.
To lose talent...anyone's talent...is a great loss to the community as a whole. I'd rather see what some have said...the "WC Family". Family,when you get right down to it, is everything to most people. I joined because I wish to be a part of something spectacular and this site, these people, artists all, are just that...bar none. Please
don't allow this to divide you. It would be a damn shame to see.
To lose talent...anyone's talent...is a great loss to the community as a whole. I'd rather see what some have said...the "WC Family". Family,when you get right down to it, is everything to most people. I joined because I wish to be a part of something spectacular and this site, these people, artists all, are just that...bar none. Please
don't allow this to divide you. It would be a damn shame to see.
Jafo
Reply #36 Monday, March 5, 2007 6:28 AM
Reply #36 Monday, March 5, 2007 6:28 AM
To lose talent...anyone's talent...is a great loss to the community as a whole.
Guys/gals, that only applies when the 'talent' mentioned is not/has not voiced intent to depart, or threats to do so.
IF a person truly considers Wincustomize 'HOME', or a valued/wanted community place-to-be then the LAST thing they would be likely to do is consider leaving/unsubscribing/lapsing/removing works/whatever.
Those who DO value the WC skinning community will stay, no matter what happens or to whom it does.
"'tragic' loss of 3 skinners" is somewhat emotive. Willingness to leave [whatever the reason] shows a true indication of the degree of community-minded commitment, or lack there-of.
'tragic' would be better replaced by 'avoidable' - as all that was/is needed is an understanding that pressuring others, old or new to conform to a specific way/opinion through threat and/or insult is not tolerated.
Z71
Reply #37 Monday, March 5, 2007 8:07 AM
Reply #37 Monday, March 5, 2007 8:07 AM
Well said, Jafo.
What gets me, is how these people had such a big head, that they thought "removing thier skins" could be used as "leverage" to get thier way.
Sorry, to me if you want to play that card, it's time for you to leave anyways.
What gets me, is how these people had such a big head, that they thought "removing thier skins" could be used as "leverage" to get thier way.
Sorry, to me if you want to play that card, it's time for you to leave anyways.
MadDeez
Reply #38 Monday, March 5, 2007 8:19 AM
Reply #38 Monday, March 5, 2007 8:19 AM
correct me if i'm wrong but i don't believe anyone was "forced to leave", "told to leave", or "kicked out". i think they left on their own.
Corky_O
Reply #39 Monday, March 5, 2007 8:41 AM
Reply #39 Monday, March 5, 2007 8:41 AM
I think we need a tutorial on using the tools, etc. in the forums to prevent the issues we have seen recently (reporting rips, requesting removal of questioned posts, and other issues).
Bushman
Reply #40 Monday, March 5, 2007 8:49 AM
Reply #40 Monday, March 5, 2007 8:49 AM
Well I finally got the email part working and I email Brad personally and now it's up to him.
It's amazing how only one person actually understood my message w/o adding things to it.
This is just plain wrong Jafo, I will not sit back and let anybody do what they want here or any place else for that matter. Maybe that's how you do things but not me.
For others, I have talked about this before but it fell on deaf ears. This is not just a business you're dealing with real live human beings here, not just a screen with a pic or writting on it. Web Gizmo was right, this whole thing should have been handled via email on all sides but not everything works right on this site yet. It took me two days to get mine to work so I could email Brad myself. When the owner of a site takes to writting a thread to bash others for their beliefs instead of emailing the person(s) directly as is warranted, something's wrong. Now that I've been able to email Brad this thread is done for me.
Remember folks this is a community where people should have the right to object to things w/o being bashed for it.
It's amazing how only one person actually understood my message w/o adding things to it.
Guys/gals, that only applies when the 'talent' mentioned is not/has not voiced intent to depart, or threats to do so.
IF a person truly considers Wincustomize 'HOME', or a valued/wanted community place-to-be then the LAST thing they would be likely to do is consider leaving/unsubscribing/lapsing/removing works/whatever.
Those who DO value the WC skinning community will stay, no matter what happens or to whom it does.
"'tragic' loss of 3 skinners" is somewhat emotive. Willingness to leave [whatever the reason] shows a true indication of the degree of community-minded commitment, or lack there-of.
'tragic' would be better replaced by 'avoidable' - as all that was/is needed is an understanding that pressuring others, old or new to conform to a specific way/opinion through threat and/or insult is not tolerated.
IF a person truly considers Wincustomize 'HOME', or a valued/wanted community place-to-be then the LAST thing they would be likely to do is consider leaving/unsubscribing/lapsing/removing works/whatever.
Those who DO value the WC skinning community will stay, no matter what happens or to whom it does.
"'tragic' loss of 3 skinners" is somewhat emotive. Willingness to leave [whatever the reason] shows a true indication of the degree of community-minded commitment, or lack there-of.
'tragic' would be better replaced by 'avoidable' - as all that was/is needed is an understanding that pressuring others, old or new to conform to a specific way/opinion through threat and/or insult is not tolerated.
This is just plain wrong Jafo, I will not sit back and let anybody do what they want here or any place else for that matter. Maybe that's how you do things but not me.
For others, I have talked about this before but it fell on deaf ears. This is not just a business you're dealing with real live human beings here, not just a screen with a pic or writting on it. Web Gizmo was right, this whole thing should have been handled via email on all sides but not everything works right on this site yet. It took me two days to get mine to work so I could email Brad myself. When the owner of a site takes to writting a thread to bash others for their beliefs instead of emailing the person(s) directly as is warranted, something's wrong. Now that I've been able to email Brad this thread is done for me.
Remember folks this is a community where people should have the right to object to things w/o being bashed for it.
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Reply #21 Sunday, March 4, 2007 7:52 PM
and without sarcasms it's soo bad!