The New School Prayer
Wednesday, January 4, 2006 by WOM | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
Now I sit me down in school
Where praying is against the rule
For this great nation under God
Finds mention of Him very odd.
If scripture now the class recites,
It violates the Bill of Rights.
And anytime my head I bow
Becomes a Federal matter now.
Our hair can be purple, orange or green,
That's no offense; it's a freedom scene.
The law is specific, the law is precise.
Prayers spoken aloud are a serious vice.
For praying in a public hall
Might offend someone with no faith at all
In silence alone we must meditate,
God's name is prohibited by the state.
We're allowed to cuss and dress like freaks,
And pierce our noses, tongues and cheeks.
They've outlawed guns, but FIRST the Bible.
To quote the Good Book makes me liable.
We can elect a pregnant Senior Queen,
And the 'unwed daddy,' our Senior King.
It's "inappropriate" to teach right from wrong,
We're taught that such "judgments" do not belong.
We can get our condoms and birth controls,
Study witchcraft, vampires and totem poles.
But the Ten Commandments are not allowed,
No word of God must reach this crowd.
It's scary here I must confess,
When chaos reigns the school's a mess.
So, Lord, this silent plea I make:
Should I be shot; My soul please take!
Amen
From watching whats on the news now a days, thought this made a lot of sense.
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ToeJo
Reply #42 Wednesday, January 4, 2006 10:25 PM
And Athiests for that matter, or any other religious or non-religious affiliation. "Christians" are not perfect and neither is anyone else. Next, you'll be saying that the African-American population does all the killing and stealing in America. We are all flawed in different ways. Adamness, you obviously have a problem with the "Christian" religion. And, as a Christian, I have a problem with religion as well. Religion is rules. But faith in Christ is about relationship. Relationship with God, His Son and The Holy Spirit. Religion, without relationship, is the cause of wars. Take the time to get to know your neighbor and you'l have a much harder time killing him. Religion is trash. Faith and relationship with the big 3 and each other is what it is all about.
The challenge Christ puts before every Christian is to love others as yourself. That is where we as Christians fail. It is a big challenge.
The thing I don't understand is this belief that you can't have any religion to have religious freedom. I have no problem praying to Christ while the guy next to me prays to Allah and the guy next to him reading a book or talking with a friend. Removing all of it is not the answer. That is simply a discrimination against all who claim some type of belief in a higher power. Teach your children to relate to each other and they will get along with thier peers. I respect those who don't believe in Christ, they are wrong, but that doesn't mean I don't respect them. God knows, I'm wrong all the time. But my wife and kids still respect me as a husband and father. Why, because of thier relationship with me.
Sometimes all you have to do is listen.
Reply #42 Wednesday, January 4, 2006 10:25 PM
| More than I can say for many so-called 'Christians.' |
And Athiests for that matter, or any other religious or non-religious affiliation. "Christians" are not perfect and neither is anyone else. Next, you'll be saying that the African-American population does all the killing and stealing in America. We are all flawed in different ways. Adamness, you obviously have a problem with the "Christian" religion. And, as a Christian, I have a problem with religion as well. Religion is rules. But faith in Christ is about relationship. Relationship with God, His Son and The Holy Spirit. Religion, without relationship, is the cause of wars. Take the time to get to know your neighbor and you'l have a much harder time killing him. Religion is trash. Faith and relationship with the big 3 and each other is what it is all about.
The challenge Christ puts before every Christian is to love others as yourself. That is where we as Christians fail. It is a big challenge.
The thing I don't understand is this belief that you can't have any religion to have religious freedom. I have no problem praying to Christ while the guy next to me prays to Allah and the guy next to him reading a book or talking with a friend. Removing all of it is not the answer. That is simply a discrimination against all who claim some type of belief in a higher power. Teach your children to relate to each other and they will get along with thier peers. I respect those who don't believe in Christ, they are wrong, but that doesn't mean I don't respect them. God knows, I'm wrong all the time. But my wife and kids still respect me as a husband and father. Why, because of thier relationship with me.
Sometimes all you have to do is listen.
Gregory2001
Reply #43 Wednesday, January 4, 2006 10:35 PM
Reply #43 Wednesday, January 4, 2006 10:35 PM
You are correct, Sir. Also, education. Which, sorry to say, is sorely lacking in too many people.
Sembetu
Reply #44 Wednesday, January 4, 2006 10:46 PM
Reply #44 Wednesday, January 4, 2006 10:46 PM
I would comment, but the fact that this bothers so many people on both sides of the fence deters me. I am actually sad about the conflicts this topic causes.
Adamness
Reply #45 Wednesday, January 4, 2006 11:08 PM
Reply #45 Wednesday, January 4, 2006 11:08 PM
There were a small number of people talking about the anti-semitism in 'Passion of the Christ.' Again, this is an example of people in the majority acting as if they're under constant attack.
And no, I have no problem with the Christian religion, nor what Jesus preached. I have a big problem with the followers, though. I don't tell people why I am an atheist, or they they should be atheists, and I wish people of faith would grant me the same courtesy.
And I don't know what you're talking about, accusing me of being a racist. Don't make wild accusations.
And Lantec, saying you can't interpret day for night, well, what can I say. Maybe I misunderstood that, but if not, learn to think for yourself. There is nothing wrong with seeing things in your own, individual way. And what bible-proving-science were you talking about? Usually real science is misinterpreted and skewed in favor of the Bible being truth. Just look at that Dr. Dino guy.
And no, I have no problem with the Christian religion, nor what Jesus preached. I have a big problem with the followers, though. I don't tell people why I am an atheist, or they they should be atheists, and I wish people of faith would grant me the same courtesy.
And I don't know what you're talking about, accusing me of being a racist. Don't make wild accusations.
And Lantec, saying you can't interpret day for night, well, what can I say. Maybe I misunderstood that, but if not, learn to think for yourself. There is nothing wrong with seeing things in your own, individual way. And what bible-proving-science were you talking about? Usually real science is misinterpreted and skewed in favor of the Bible being truth. Just look at that Dr. Dino guy.
ToeJo
Reply #46 Wednesday, January 4, 2006 11:15 PM
Reply #46 Wednesday, January 4, 2006 11:15 PM
Adamness, I am not accusing you, by any means, of being racist. But, singling out a specific group of people as being more problematic than others is a road to racism. I am also not trying to sell you my belief. I respect your choice to do as you wish.
It would appear to me that you are the one who feels "Under attack."
| Again, this is an example of people in the majority acting as if they're under constant attack. |
| I don't tell people why I am an atheist, or they they should be atheists, and I wish people of faith would grant me the same courtesy. |
It would appear to me that you are the one who feels "Under attack."
Adamness
Reply #47 Thursday, January 5, 2006 12:03 AM
Reply #47 Thursday, January 5, 2006 12:03 AM
I do feel under attack. That's my point. And I feel much more uneasy since like-minded people are a small minority in this country, as well as the world, though our numbers are growing. I often hear about how the secularists and atheists are ruining the country.
And probably every group is more problematic than others, depending on what you're looking at. In terms of what we're talking about, religion is problematic. There is nothing wrong with singling out a group, so long as it is based on something rational. I single out Christianity, since it is the predominant faith in America, and since many of it's adherents are so vocal about their faith, and encouraging others to join it. If I were to say black people are more prone to crime than others, it would not be based on anything rational, but rather ignorance, which is why I do not believe that to be true, and why I am not a racist.
If you want to know more of where I'm coming from, read some stuff on my website, Thinkbulb.com.
And probably every group is more problematic than others, depending on what you're looking at. In terms of what we're talking about, religion is problematic. There is nothing wrong with singling out a group, so long as it is based on something rational. I single out Christianity, since it is the predominant faith in America, and since many of it's adherents are so vocal about their faith, and encouraging others to join it. If I were to say black people are more prone to crime than others, it would not be based on anything rational, but rather ignorance, which is why I do not believe that to be true, and why I am not a racist.
If you want to know more of where I'm coming from, read some stuff on my website, Thinkbulb.com.
ToeJo
Reply #48 Thursday, January 5, 2006 1:03 AM
Reply #48 Thursday, January 5, 2006 1:03 AM
Adamness...You really are very young. (That is NOT an insult) I read some of the stuff on your website. It would not be appropriate to comment on it here, but I really think you have it all wrong. However, I commend you for not being afraid to voice your opinion. (I feel the need to remind you that you can voice your opinion because of the country you live in)
To someone like myself, what you are saying is not, by any means, rational. So to single us out, by your definition, is inappropriate.
Bottom line is this...There are a lot of bad Christians out there. There are a lot of bad people out there. Christians are no better or worse than the rest of the people out there. We just have a faith that you disagee with. I also don't know how you could speak rationally about Christianity until you really understand what Christianity truly is.
Let me close this evening with this, forgiveness is the center of my faith. And if the people in the world would find true, real, sincere, forgiveness for when they have been wronged, we would all breathe a lot easier. This is why Christ died, this is why I live. Forgiveness is a good thing. It's when a person applies his own methodology to forgiveness and calls it religion that it becomes a bad thing. Even an atheists is some type of religion.
One last thing, I truly respect your opinion and your right to voice that opinion. I don't look at you with distain but rather with honor. Again, I agree with you, I do not see you as a raceist. I just think your wrong about a lot of things. Normally I would say God Bless you Adam, but for now I'll say, "Peace be with you."
To someone like myself, what you are saying is not, by any means, rational. So to single us out, by your definition, is inappropriate.
Bottom line is this...There are a lot of bad Christians out there. There are a lot of bad people out there. Christians are no better or worse than the rest of the people out there. We just have a faith that you disagee with. I also don't know how you could speak rationally about Christianity until you really understand what Christianity truly is.
Let me close this evening with this, forgiveness is the center of my faith. And if the people in the world would find true, real, sincere, forgiveness for when they have been wronged, we would all breathe a lot easier. This is why Christ died, this is why I live. Forgiveness is a good thing. It's when a person applies his own methodology to forgiveness and calls it religion that it becomes a bad thing. Even an atheists is some type of religion.
One last thing, I truly respect your opinion and your right to voice that opinion. I don't look at you with distain but rather with honor. Again, I agree with you, I do not see you as a raceist. I just think your wrong about a lot of things. Normally I would say God Bless you Adam, but for now I'll say, "Peace be with you."
davad70
Reply #49 Thursday, January 5, 2006 1:44 AM
Actually many historians and theologians believe that the 10 commandments were heavily inspired by the egyptian book of the dead, which existed long before the exodus and the passing down of the commandments from God.
My point is that the values expressed in the ten commandments are not exclusive to the God of the Bible, nor did they originate in the Bible. Therefore, one can recognize the importance of living life by these beliefs outside of Christianity or Judaism.
From Wikipedia;
historians have argued that the Ten Commandments originated from ancient Egyptian religion, and postulate that the Biblical Jews borrowed the concept after their Exodus from Egypt. Chapter 125 of the Book of the Dead (the Papyrus of Ani) includes a list of things to which a man must swear in order to enter the afterlife. These sworn statements bear a remarkable resemblance to the Ten Commandments in their nature and their phrasing. These statements include "not have I defiled the wife of man," "not have I committed murder," "not have I committed theft," "not have I lied," "not have I cursed god," "not have I borne false witness," and "not have I abandoned my parents." The Book of the Dead has additional requirements, and, of course, doesn't require worship of YHWH.
Reply #49 Thursday, January 5, 2006 1:44 AM
| How can you seperate the 10 commandements from He who is the author of them? |
Actually many historians and theologians believe that the 10 commandments were heavily inspired by the egyptian book of the dead, which existed long before the exodus and the passing down of the commandments from God.
My point is that the values expressed in the ten commandments are not exclusive to the God of the Bible, nor did they originate in the Bible. Therefore, one can recognize the importance of living life by these beliefs outside of Christianity or Judaism.
From Wikipedia;
historians have argued that the Ten Commandments originated from ancient Egyptian religion, and postulate that the Biblical Jews borrowed the concept after their Exodus from Egypt. Chapter 125 of the Book of the Dead (the Papyrus of Ani) includes a list of things to which a man must swear in order to enter the afterlife. These sworn statements bear a remarkable resemblance to the Ten Commandments in their nature and their phrasing. These statements include "not have I defiled the wife of man," "not have I committed murder," "not have I committed theft," "not have I lied," "not have I cursed god," "not have I borne false witness," and "not have I abandoned my parents." The Book of the Dead has additional requirements, and, of course, doesn't require worship of YHWH.
jebro
Reply #50 Thursday, January 5, 2006 2:34 AM
Reply #50 Thursday, January 5, 2006 2:34 AM
Only by reading this thread shows how easy people begin to argument with anger, in the name of God and religion.
We live in a modern world, where everyone should feel free to believe or not to believe in whatever they want. Common sense and respect for other people doesn't necessary need a religion.
We live in a modern world, where everyone should feel free to believe or not to believe in whatever they want. Common sense and respect for other people doesn't necessary need a religion.
Cynder-Elluh
Reply #51 Thursday, January 5, 2006 2:36 AM
The thing YOU are missing is that these are KIDS, that feel like this, not safe, unsure, there appears to be no line between right and wrong. This is not political, not about YOU, it's about the kids, the future of this nation. Why can't they has "less chaos", be less afraid....AT SCHOOL!
Reply #51 Thursday, January 5, 2006 2:36 AM
| The original post gives the impression that religious expression is not tolerated in public schools. This is incorrect. You can't pray in class, just like you can't talk on the phone, or engage in chess club activities, etc. There are plenty of opportunities everyday for students alone or assembled to pray, chant, handle snakes, whatever. |
The thing YOU are missing is that these are KIDS, that feel like this, not safe, unsure, there appears to be no line between right and wrong. This is not political, not about YOU, it's about the kids, the future of this nation. Why can't they has "less chaos", be less afraid....AT SCHOOL!
| It's scary here I must confess, When chaos reigns the school's a mess. So, Lord, this silent plea I make: Should I be shot; My soul please take! |
Jafo
Reply #52 Thursday, January 5, 2006 4:43 AM
Reply #52 Thursday, January 5, 2006 4:43 AM
It's one thing to press your adult's sense of morality upon your child.....quite another to press your religion upon them.
Morality must be taught....
Religion 'may' be adopted.
Again, there's a difference.
I [as one who suffered it] equate the impressing of your parents' religion upon the child as assault.
Do not mistake it for education.
XX
Reply #53 Thursday, January 5, 2006 4:48 AM
Reply #53 Thursday, January 5, 2006 4:48 AM
It's very simple to me.
Which is better:
Being good because god watches you.
Being good because it's part of your character and integrity.
To my eyes latter always thumps former. It seems that people always think the "god" is looking away each time they do crime and all that crap. And they said god knows all.
Which is better:
Being good because god watches you.
Being good because it's part of your character and integrity.
To my eyes latter always thumps former. It seems that people always think the "god" is looking away each time they do crime and all that crap. And they said god knows all.
starkers
Reply #54 Thursday, January 5, 2006 8:40 AM
Whilst I also agree with Jafo, that without religion we would have seen fewer wars, I must also agree with you, in that if we keep replacing moral law with politics and economic law, the world will eventually reach a state of complete anarchy.
In today's society, all over the world, moral issues take second and last place to economic issues and political agendas that have little or nothing to do with decency, morality or the common good. In other words, if there's no money involved/to be had, seeking justice/assistance from the powers-that-be just falls on deaf ears.
I am neither pro 'church' or defending 'religion', being that I've witnessed corruption, immorality and greed within various denominations, but I firmly believe that if we retain and defend the moral principles of the 10 Commandments, this world would be a much better and safer place to live.
Reply #54 Thursday, January 5, 2006 8:40 AM
| It is very disturbing. The more we remove God from our lives the worse it's going to get. And people wonder what's wrong with the world. |
Whilst I also agree with Jafo, that without religion we would have seen fewer wars, I must also agree with you, in that if we keep replacing moral law with politics and economic law, the world will eventually reach a state of complete anarchy.
In today's society, all over the world, moral issues take second and last place to economic issues and political agendas that have little or nothing to do with decency, morality or the common good. In other words, if there's no money involved/to be had, seeking justice/assistance from the powers-that-be just falls on deaf ears.
I am neither pro 'church' or defending 'religion', being that I've witnessed corruption, immorality and greed within various denominations, but I firmly believe that if we retain and defend the moral principles of the 10 Commandments, this world would be a much better and safer place to live.
jebro
Reply #55 Thursday, January 5, 2006 8:49 AM
Reply #55 Thursday, January 5, 2006 8:49 AM
Only by reading this thread shows how easy people begin to argument with anger, in the name of God and religion.
We live in a modern world, where everyone should feel free to believe or not to believe in whatever they want. Common sense and respect for other people doesn't necessary need a religion.
I agree with you, Starkers.
Mankind wants so bad to belive that there is something more after death.
However, even quantphyscics says that there is no physical universe, except the one in our own minds. The human brain is so undeveloped, to be able to understand the dimensions that surrounds the universe. The scientist will keep on with their research, to find out the answers.
Meanwhile, humans on this little planet Tellus will continue with wars and terrorism against innocent people, in the name of what they believe is the true religion.
Sometimes I do believe time stands still...
We live in a modern world, where everyone should feel free to believe or not to believe in whatever they want. Common sense and respect for other people doesn't necessary need a religion.
I agree with you, Starkers.
Mankind wants so bad to belive that there is something more after death.
However, even quantphyscics says that there is no physical universe, except the one in our own minds. The human brain is so undeveloped, to be able to understand the dimensions that surrounds the universe. The scientist will keep on with their research, to find out the answers.
Meanwhile, humans on this little planet Tellus will continue with wars and terrorism against innocent people, in the name of what they believe is the true religion.
Sometimes I do believe time stands still...
Koasati
Reply #56 Thursday, January 5, 2006 9:08 AM
Reply #56 Thursday, January 5, 2006 9:08 AM
| Common sense and respect for other people doesn't necessary need a religion. |
Yep!
Chef Garry
Reply #57 Thursday, January 5, 2006 9:44 AM
Reply #57 Thursday, January 5, 2006 9:44 AM
It's been my observation (here in Canada at least) that we've adopted an attitude of tolerance, even acceptance of other cultures and religions which is a good thing for the most part.
Somehow unfortunately, this has translated to intolerance for Christianity. That is, I must be tolerant of Judiaism, Buddism, etc. but God forbid I should celebrate Christmas and Easter in any obvious way. I'm becoming more and more of the opinion that modern society will tolerate darn near anything except Christianity.
On another note (there appears to be at least two threads going on here), there've been some interesting discussion regarding child upbringing and the resultant deteriorating moral standards in society (post #10, thanks scorpio-logic). I'm reminded of Robert Heinlein's discussions of the subject in many of his novels. I would refer you particularly to the early chapters in Starship Trooper. (FWIW, Heinlein was most definately a philosopher who expressed his views on modern life through his excellent stories).
White Moth - nice to see you again!
Somehow unfortunately, this has translated to intolerance for Christianity. That is, I must be tolerant of Judiaism, Buddism, etc. but God forbid I should celebrate Christmas and Easter in any obvious way. I'm becoming more and more of the opinion that modern society will tolerate darn near anything except Christianity.
On another note (there appears to be at least two threads going on here), there've been some interesting discussion regarding child upbringing and the resultant deteriorating moral standards in society (post #10, thanks scorpio-logic). I'm reminded of Robert Heinlein's discussions of the subject in many of his novels. I would refer you particularly to the early chapters in Starship Trooper. (FWIW, Heinlein was most definately a philosopher who expressed his views on modern life through his excellent stories).
White Moth - nice to see you again!
Island Dog
Reply #58 Thursday, January 5, 2006 10:59 AM
Reply #58 Thursday, January 5, 2006 10:59 AM
| It's been my observation (here in Canada at least) that we've adopted an attitude of tolerance, even acceptance of other cultures and religions which is a good thing for the most part. |
That's the way pepole want it to be here, but those people are in the minority.
For example. There are groups trying to allow public schools to offer "prayer rooms" for muslims. However, a child was recently suspended for reading his Bible during recess.
NightTrainthedark
Reply #59 Thursday, January 5, 2006 11:24 AM
If we are talking about the same episode, the facts are distorted beyond any truth known. The girl was not suspended. Her bus driver was for telling her she could not read her bible on his bus. She read her bible during recess without incident.
Reply #59 Thursday, January 5, 2006 11:24 AM
| However, a child was recently suspended for reading his Bible during recess. |
If we are talking about the same episode, the facts are distorted beyond any truth known. The girl was not suspended. Her bus driver was for telling her she could not read her bible on his bus. She read her bible during recess without incident.
Adamness
Reply #60 Thursday, January 5, 2006 1:14 PM
Reply #60 Thursday, January 5, 2006 1:14 PM
I think Jafo has it right on. I have no problem with religion, so long as it isn't equated with morality. The problem is, religion and morality seem to be interchangable in many peoples mind's today.
And yes, I probably am younger than many people here, but that doesn't makes my ideas any less valid. It is very frustrating to be discounted just because of my age, as I have a more developed mind than many others who are older than me. Well, at least I think I do.
And yes, I probably am younger than many people here, but that doesn't makes my ideas any less valid. It is very frustrating to be discounted just because of my age, as I have a more developed mind than many others who are older than me. Well, at least I think I do.
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Reply #41 Wednesday, January 4, 2006 10:17 PM
I'm only 43, but I can tell you from for certain that there is a lot less religion in government, the movies and television than just 30 years ago. When do you think all those Christmas specials were made. Mel gibson releases his movie n Christ and the Country just about went into convulsions over the politically incorrect depiction of Jews. None of this happened over The Greatest Story Ever Told or Ben Hur or the dozens of other movies of the era.
As for Government...your so far off base I won't even respond.
What a load of crap. You talk about insulting your cherished beliefs. I don't know where you came by these "facts" but I would bet they're either the latest "politically correct" version of history taught in public schools or just some internet blogger bull.
I will concede one point....there is more religion in science today than there used to be. That's mostly due to the fact that science has been verifying what was previously thought to be "fanciful notions" "mythical places" and "unreliable accounts" in the bible. I'd point you to the National Geogrphic article on the genetic research that puts "Eve" at having lived several thousand years ago instead of several hundred thousand as previously stated as fact by the Scientific Community.