Serious Ratings Abuse Still Happening
rehashing an old favorite
Saturday, February 19, 2005 by Phoon | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
I can't help but notice that as of late, there has been some serious rating slamming happening particularly in the Windowblinds section.
There have been some fine themes that are getting hammered with 1 and 2 stars and some mediocre themes getting 3 and 4.
When Boxxi puts out a new one like Gold Carbon and its getting rated at 2 stars, I think that is proof enough.
It seems we have hashed and rehashed this issue, yet nothing ever gets done about it.
Why can't we have the following rules for ratings, it WOULD do a great deal to solve the issue.
#1) If you are going to rate, you MUST leave a comment.
#2) Your username, comment and rating are visible to the skinner at least.
There have been some fine themes that are getting hammered with 1 and 2 stars and some mediocre themes getting 3 and 4.
When Boxxi puts out a new one like Gold Carbon and its getting rated at 2 stars, I think that is proof enough.
It seems we have hashed and rehashed this issue, yet nothing ever gets done about it.
Why can't we have the following rules for ratings, it WOULD do a great deal to solve the issue.
#1) If you are going to rate, you MUST leave a comment.
#2) Your username, comment and rating are visible to the skinner at least.
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Jafo
Reply #82 Monday, February 21, 2005 8:04 PM
Reply #82 Monday, February 21, 2005 8:04 PM
| Its not the rating sytem that is the problem, its the raters. |
Eye Dee Ten Tee Error strikes again...
Yes, the rating system does its job as a filter to differentiate between those logged in and those not logged in....as to what they have access to.
Generally it also works well as a sorting method for 'good' to 'bad'.....[crossover occurs with personal taste].
If absolute bandwidth were free then everything could be visible to all and no 'filter' need apply.
But it isn't, so they are not...
Double Zero
Reply #83 Monday, February 21, 2005 8:26 PM
Reply #83 Monday, February 21, 2005 8:26 PM
Thats very true "".....[crossover occurs with personal taste].""
Content does have alot to do with it although it probably shouldnt. But I personally wont download and use WB's if I dont care for the content. People should not rate based on content alone, but it's hard to seperate the theme from the mechanix..if you dont like what your seeing to begin with how can you rate it upon usability and over all functionality?
Take your DOOM WB as an example Phoon..I personally think it totally rocks! but someone that goes to church twice a week, spends time trying to solve the worlds hunger problem, likes new born kittens and adores butterflies, would not use a profane word if their life depended upon it..They probably would not like the DOOM WB..at all. it might even be offensive..Should they be allowed to rate it?..and how could they ever rate it fairly?
Im thinking that alot of the artists here have been saying that the ratings do not mean so much to them as the fun they had in the creativity of their work and the sharing of it with people that do like the content.
So far after reading both threads , thats my take on it.
I think whats most important is that *you are satisfied with the works you offer..Please yourself first, because it is impossible to please everyone..
Oh Yeah,
Shutting up again, LoL
Zero.
Content does have alot to do with it although it probably shouldnt. But I personally wont download and use WB's if I dont care for the content. People should not rate based on content alone, but it's hard to seperate the theme from the mechanix..if you dont like what your seeing to begin with how can you rate it upon usability and over all functionality?
Take your DOOM WB as an example Phoon..I personally think it totally rocks! but someone that goes to church twice a week, spends time trying to solve the worlds hunger problem, likes new born kittens and adores butterflies, would not use a profane word if their life depended upon it..They probably would not like the DOOM WB..at all. it might even be offensive..Should they be allowed to rate it?..and how could they ever rate it fairly?
Im thinking that alot of the artists here have been saying that the ratings do not mean so much to them as the fun they had in the creativity of their work and the sharing of it with people that do like the content.
So far after reading both threads , thats my take on it.
I think whats most important is that *you are satisfied with the works you offer..Please yourself first, because it is impossible to please everyone..
Oh Yeah,
Shutting up again, LoL
Zero.
Jafo
Reply #84 Monday, February 21, 2005 8:35 PM
Reply #84 Monday, February 21, 2005 8:35 PM
| So far after reading both threads |
Therein lies the rub.....there have been dozens of threads, not 'two'.
There is a constant demand to invent a better mousetrap every time someone notices some mouse droppings.
Sometimes all that is needed is a broom....
Jafo is rapidly running out of ways to say the same thing...
Koasati
Reply #85 Monday, February 21, 2005 8:47 PM
Reply #85 Monday, February 21, 2005 8:47 PM
Cyberworld... that has to be the most convoluted rating system ever. 
kona... download counts are just that, and in no way reflect the quality of a skin. Jafo's "Lost in Bryceworld" (or whatever it was called) proved that.
phoon... all the Mods aren't neccessarily 'happy' with the rating system, but it's the one we have, and we deal with it. We have no more say in how it is implemented than you do. Personally I think the way the 5 star system is tranlated back to the 10 point system is very confusing, but that's the way it is.
Cyberworld
Reply #86 Tuesday, February 22, 2005 1:48 AM
You'd act as Journeyman,not a subscriber.Journeyman would be hierarchycally above and so would be the way you rate.
I know,that is why it took only 5 mins to think of it. In retrospect it must be way too much coding to be accomplished.
Oh well fair enough,the ratings system stays as is.
Reply #86 Tuesday, February 22, 2005 1:48 AM
| So if you are a Journeyman or above and a subscriber your rating is 60%? Which does the person have to do, download or comment or both? |
You'd act as Journeyman,not a subscriber.Journeyman would be hierarchycally above and so would be the way you rate.
| Cyberworld... that has to be the most convoluted rating system ever. |
I know,that is why it took only 5 mins to think of it.
In retrospect it must be way too much coding to be accomplished.Oh well fair enough,the ratings system stays as is.
Essencay
Reply #87 Tuesday, February 22, 2005 2:57 AM
Double Zero....you are already a member. I think you mean you plan on becoming a subscriber....and your statement there may be proof enough of the confusion that some newer folks think that you have to be a subscriber (member) to see all skins.
I won't comment on most of what Angel has been saying, just not worth rehashing. She did bring up one valid point about the inconsistencies between the different pages that talk about levels and benefits and I think that over time there has been inserted language and paragraphs to try to keep this stuff up to date, but the overall pages probably should be rewritten. Here are the three pages...
https://www.wincustomize.com/AboutSite.aspx
https://www.wincustomize.com/resources.aspx?cmd=3
https://www.wincustomize.com/store/index.aspx
This is the text of an email I sent to Stardock about a month ago....
Reply #87 Tuesday, February 22, 2005 2:57 AM
| I plan on becoming a member regardless.. |
Double Zero....you are already a member. I think you mean you plan on becoming a subscriber....and your statement there may be proof enough of the confusion that some newer folks think that you have to be a subscriber (member) to see all skins.
I won't comment on most of what Angel has been saying, just not worth rehashing. She did bring up one valid point about the inconsistencies between the different pages that talk about levels and benefits and I think that over time there has been inserted language and paragraphs to try to keep this stuff up to date, but the overall pages probably should be rewritten. Here are the three pages...
https://www.wincustomize.com/AboutSite.aspx
https://www.wincustomize.com/resources.aspx?cmd=3
https://www.wincustomize.com/store/index.aspx
This is the text of an email I sent to Stardock about a month ago....
There seems to be some confusion about user and access levels, who can rate skins, etc. showing up on the messageboards. There are three pages that mention user and/or access levels and benefits to them... The WinCustomize Store page https://www.wincustomize.com/store/index.aspx WinCustomize Subscription Info page https://www.wincustomize.com/resources.aspx?cmd=3 WinCustomize About Site page https://www.wincustomize.com/AboutSite.aspx BTW the link is bad for the About Site page....shows as http://www2.wincustomize.com/https://www.wincustomize.com/AboutSite.aspx Here's where I can see folks getting confused about User Levels, which are given through financial participation at WC. From the Store page.... WinCustomize User Access Increases to Level 5. Once you purchase any Stardock/WinCustomize product, you are automatically promoted to level 5 access. This will entitle you to many exclusive features, such as unlimited file downloading on WinCustomize, access to skin ratings, your very own WinCustomize personal website, and much more. From the WC Subscription page... Level 4: Active Stardock customer / Elite User. These are users who have either purchased Object Desktop Network or some other Stardock product (Stardock is WinCustomize's sponser), or has Apprentice access or higher due to contributing to the site in other forms (making skins, being an active contributor to the message boards, etc.). These users get all the benefits of a registered user plus: Access To Skin Ratings. Unlimited File Downloads. Say good-bye to file limitations! No more annoying messages preventing you from getting your download to work. So on one page you are told you become user level 4 with any purchase from Stardock and on the other you are told you become user level 5, which on the WC Subscription page is for WC Subscribers only. Notice also that it states on the WC Subscription page that an Apprentice is also given user level 4 and therefore has access to skin ratings, when the whole citizen (1), apprentice (2), master apprentice (3) and journeyman (4) structure is based on access level not user level and if you go to the WC About Site page it shows that you gain access to skin ratings at the journeyman (4) access level. Also the Master Apprentice (3) access level isn't much more than a brief remark under the Apprentice description with what seems to be no more access that an Apprentice has. Journeymen A handful of "super-citizens" will be at this class. These are people who are significant contributors to the community. They can do everything an Apprentice can do but also rate the skins. You were a great help explaining the adovacy system to me before. Hopefully you can sort out these pages so that they make sense to folks. My best guess would be that you have to be either an access level 4 journeyman or an user level 4 current customer to rate skins. Cheers, Stephen aka Essencay |
Phoon
Reply #88 Tuesday, February 22, 2005 8:18 AM
Ya know.. now THAT is a painfully obvious angle that was so plain that I didn't even think to look at it that way.
THANK YOU Night Train.. That single little sentence made more sense to me than any of the long drawn out
psychobabble that I have been reading and fuming about.
I can accept that answer as the true source of the problems. End of issue for me.. PERIOD.
Double Zero - When I started the tread, I wasn't necessarily referring to my Doom Blind. While I wasn't at all happy with the ratings it got (there was some foul play in the beginning on it but that was resolved wonderfully by the Admins), I did come to accept that there are a couple little things with it and the content might not appeal to the groups that you brought up. Oh well.. no sleep lost on that one. Thanks for your outlook too.
Reply #88 Tuesday, February 22, 2005 8:18 AM
| Its not the rating sytem that is the problem, its the raters. |
Ya know.. now THAT is a painfully obvious angle that was so plain that I didn't even think to look at it that way.
THANK YOU Night Train.. That single little sentence made more sense to me than any of the long drawn out
psychobabble that I have been reading and fuming about.
I can accept that answer as the true source of the problems. End of issue for me.. PERIOD.
Double Zero - When I started the tread, I wasn't necessarily referring to my Doom Blind. While I wasn't at all happy with the ratings it got (there was some foul play in the beginning on it but that was resolved wonderfully by the Admins), I did come to accept that there are a couple little things with it and the content might not appeal to the groups that you brought up. Oh well.. no sleep lost on that one. Thanks for your outlook too.
Double Zero
Reply #89 Tuesday, February 22, 2005 11:21 AM
Reply #89 Tuesday, February 22, 2005 11:21 AM
Essencay, thanks for the clarification..I admit I was a little "Foggy" about that. But, I think becoming a suscriber defintely would make me personally feel more like a member.
All I have done is purchase one stardock product, windowblinds, I do not really think thats much of a contribution "membership" wise, and it certainly doesnt show the amount of support I would like to offer this community, if I could.
The first 3-4 months I owned WB's all I would do is read these boards, I dared not post upon them..::laughs:: But more and more I saw people posting questions that went un-answered for possibly various reason, and some of the questions I was able to answer but I did not, determining that I wasnt anyone that should. But putting myself in the "users" point of view..remembering all the frustration that is possible when answers elude one, I just started offering to help and support wincustomize at least along that avenue. If people are able to get the answers they need to continue using the products they have purchased, they will eventually, 9 times out of 10, purchase other products and perhaps even subscribe themselves. If one that I have offered answers to does indeed subscribe, then I have succeeded in supporting Wincustomize.
Im not rich, and dont have alot of loose cash, so I do what I can in support of [in my personal opinion] one of the bests sites on the web..."thats my story and I am stickin to it"..LoL
Phoon, I know that you werent referring to the DOOM blind, it was just a great example of content. I have seen skins rated highly that I have DL'd and just scratched my head in wonder about why it got such a high rating, and another that had more content, being more complete as far a progress animations, sound and even backround images got a low rating. But as I have nothing at all to do with the ratings, and they dont really affect me one way or the other, all I do is shrug and give it the ol "Whatever" [my daughters personal annoying favorite!..LoL] and continue using the skins that I personally like no matter what their rating is.
Anyway, your welcome for the outlook, but I cant stress enough, I am not at all always correct, just very opinionated...LoL...
Take care guys,
Zero.
All I have done is purchase one stardock product, windowblinds, I do not really think thats much of a contribution "membership" wise, and it certainly doesnt show the amount of support I would like to offer this community, if I could.
The first 3-4 months I owned WB's all I would do is read these boards, I dared not post upon them..::laughs:: But more and more I saw people posting questions that went un-answered for possibly various reason, and some of the questions I was able to answer but I did not, determining that I wasnt anyone that should. But putting myself in the "users" point of view..remembering all the frustration that is possible when answers elude one, I just started offering to help and support wincustomize at least along that avenue. If people are able to get the answers they need to continue using the products they have purchased, they will eventually, 9 times out of 10, purchase other products and perhaps even subscribe themselves. If one that I have offered answers to does indeed subscribe, then I have succeeded in supporting Wincustomize.
Im not rich, and dont have alot of loose cash, so I do what I can in support of [in my personal opinion] one of the bests sites on the web..."thats my story and I am stickin to it"..LoL
Phoon, I know that you werent referring to the DOOM blind, it was just a great example of content. I have seen skins rated highly that I have DL'd and just scratched my head in wonder about why it got such a high rating, and another that had more content, being more complete as far a progress animations, sound and even backround images got a low rating. But as I have nothing at all to do with the ratings, and they dont really affect me one way or the other, all I do is shrug and give it the ol "Whatever" [my daughters personal annoying favorite!..LoL] and continue using the skins that I personally like no matter what their rating is.
Anyway, your welcome for the outlook, but I cant stress enough, I am not at all always correct, just very opinionated...LoL...
Take care guys,
Zero.
Frogboy
Reply #90 Tuesday, February 22, 2005 1:03 PM
Reply #90 Tuesday, February 22, 2005 1:03 PM
Sounds like some of you have excellent ideas for creating a new skin site. I would recommend going and trying one. In the meantime, I'm pretty satisfied with the current rating system and how it works. There is no perfect solution, so we stick with "good enough".
BoXXi
Reply #91 Tuesday, February 22, 2005 4:47 PM
Reply #91 Tuesday, February 22, 2005 4:47 PM
With regard to my Gold Carbon skin.... it's first rating was a 10, but then a high ranking admin rated it a 3, so that dragged it down. Then it got a bunch of 3 ratings and a few 7's, but I think the admin rating kept the average down. I can't say I'm a fan of this new rating system, but if I don't like it, I can just stop uploading my stuff. 
Fuzzy Logic
Reply #92 Tuesday, February 22, 2005 8:07 PM
Reply #92 Tuesday, February 22, 2005 8:07 PM
As a skinner, or any artist for that matter, you just have to live with the fact some people just don't like your stuff. That might sound a bit basic, but it's reality. You may think you have just produced the best work ever, someone else will come along and think yuck!
At the end of the day most people have more important things to worry about than a few ratings. Fuzzy Logic looks disinterested, rolls over and falls asleep...
Frogboy
Reply #93 Tuesday, February 22, 2005 9:28 PM
Reply #93 Tuesday, February 22, 2005 9:28 PM
In Boxxi's example, I was the one who gave it a 2 star rating (which gives it a numerical value of 3 under the covers). I submit that as evidence as proof that we, admins, are pretty objective. If we're willing to give our friends a 2 star rating, then what else can people expect?
If anything, since I've known Boxxi for something like 5 years, if anything, I'd be biased for him. So we give our straight opinions no matter what. (though I do wish I could give it a 2.5 star rather than a 2 star but that's a different story).
Boss019
Reply #94 Tuesday, February 22, 2005 9:41 PM
Reply #94 Tuesday, February 22, 2005 9:41 PM
Yeah Frogboy, I do miss the 10 point system..I gave 2 stars but would rather have given it a 5 under the old system....oh well
Akoloutheo
Reply #96 Tuesday, February 22, 2005 9:46 PM
Reply #96 Tuesday, February 22, 2005 9:46 PM
I'm new in these parts of town so if you want me to put a sock in it I won't be offended
It would seem possible that the quailty of skins that have benn submitted to WC in the years since it has been opened has improved. Not only has the ability of said skinner improved but the programs themselves and thus a higher quality of work "can be" seen. Now obviously this is not always the case as new artists have a lot to learn about the craft. To give recognition to those members who have given a great deal to WC, they are given a rank and title.
My idea (and this is where the "put a sock in it" part come in) is to have catagories of rating that tie in with the ranking system. For example, if Mr Joe were a journeyman and he submitted a skin or whatever, and it passed moderation, it would be placed into a journeyman catagory and would be rated along side other journeymen's work. If Mr Joe had spent months and it was a good piece (for a journeyman) then an 8,9, or 10 rating could apply. However, a ten in a journeyman catagory would still only be a 7 or 8 in the next catagory up.
Now clearly the Citizen catagory would be huge and the other higher catagories smaller and smaller, but the recognition of being a journeyman would bring a responsibility to produce a better quality of work. If Mr Joe kept submitting bum skins that were consistently being rated low, Mr Joe would probably be looking at a demotion. If they were consistenty being rated high then he would be looking at a promotion.
So who gets to judge what catagories? Well this I don't know, partly because I haven't been around long enough to understand the system fully, and partly because I don't feel qualified to. (Maybe Citizens by everyone, otherwise only by the rank higher than you, maybe? I'll be quiet here)
What I can say is that the present system of the higher ranking people having more effect on the ratings should stay. After all they have the experience right.
The advantage for this system is that people who just want their stuff on the web but who don't care to much about the quality will remain a Citizen. Those who want to increase in their abilitys/gifts will produce better skins, receive promotion, have longer exposure as there would be fewer submissions to that catagory, and would only try to submit skins of equal to or better quality. Ratings would be more effective in being constructive, and your skin would not be lost in amongst the thousand of Citizen skins.
Skinners could submit to a catagory lower than their own if they chose to, i.e. if they were only mucking around.
Well I think i'm out of ideas at the moment.
Thanks for reading.
Akoloutheo
It would seem possible that the quailty of skins that have benn submitted to WC in the years since it has been opened has improved. Not only has the ability of said skinner improved but the programs themselves and thus a higher quality of work "can be" seen. Now obviously this is not always the case as new artists have a lot to learn about the craft. To give recognition to those members who have given a great deal to WC, they are given a rank and title.
My idea (and this is where the "put a sock in it" part come in) is to have catagories of rating that tie in with the ranking system. For example, if Mr Joe were a journeyman and he submitted a skin or whatever, and it passed moderation, it would be placed into a journeyman catagory and would be rated along side other journeymen's work. If Mr Joe had spent months and it was a good piece (for a journeyman) then an 8,9, or 10 rating could apply. However, a ten in a journeyman catagory would still only be a 7 or 8 in the next catagory up.
Now clearly the Citizen catagory would be huge and the other higher catagories smaller and smaller, but the recognition of being a journeyman would bring a responsibility to produce a better quality of work. If Mr Joe kept submitting bum skins that were consistently being rated low, Mr Joe would probably be looking at a demotion. If they were consistenty being rated high then he would be looking at a promotion.
So who gets to judge what catagories? Well this I don't know, partly because I haven't been around long enough to understand the system fully, and partly because I don't feel qualified to. (Maybe Citizens by everyone, otherwise only by the rank higher than you, maybe? I'll be quiet here)
What I can say is that the present system of the higher ranking people having more effect on the ratings should stay. After all they have the experience right.
The advantage for this system is that people who just want their stuff on the web but who don't care to much about the quality will remain a Citizen. Those who want to increase in their abilitys/gifts will produce better skins, receive promotion, have longer exposure as there would be fewer submissions to that catagory, and would only try to submit skins of equal to or better quality. Ratings would be more effective in being constructive, and your skin would not be lost in amongst the thousand of Citizen skins.
Skinners could submit to a catagory lower than their own if they chose to, i.e. if they were only mucking around.
Well I think i'm out of ideas at the moment.
Thanks for reading.
Akoloutheo
WOM
Reply #97 Tuesday, February 22, 2005 10:00 PM
Reply #97 Tuesday, February 22, 2005 10:00 PM
It's amazing how this thread keeps going when Frogboy has already said, the rating system is here to stay.
Sleeping Dragon
Reply #98 Tuesday, February 22, 2005 10:07 PM
Reply #98 Tuesday, February 22, 2005 10:07 PM
...anybody want some ice cream? I still have some "Creme Brule" left.
butch123
Reply #99 Tuesday, February 22, 2005 10:53 PM
Reply #99 Tuesday, February 22, 2005 10:53 PM
Developer Sleeping Dragon Creme Brule..yum sounds good, but I would have to port that with me as I gotta rush off...for some pizza. 
Akoloutheo
Reply #100 Wednesday, February 23, 2005 12:18 AM
Reply #100 Wednesday, February 23, 2005 12:18 AM
I know WOM but I was mulling it over and it seemed a good idea. I did say you could tell me to put a sock in it!
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Reply #81 Monday, February 21, 2005 7:58 PM