I agree whole heartedly, Stardock created the business of skinning.That's how I will always see it.
End of story.

BTW, one thing I want to be clear about, since Bant didn't elaborate exactly why he thinks Stardock is a "disgrace" I don't want to ascribe motives to him.

I have pieced together from other sites that he dislikes the idea of developers making money off of skinners. I am not certain he feels that way though. The only specific complaint I've ever seen him mention is that he didn't like the pre 4.x builds of SkinStudio. 

I agree with you Brad. That guy is nuts!!

Good words, Brad.

.....Bant will need the time off from skinning so he can take another run at English class...

BTW, Bant was 14 when WindowBlinds began development.

I guess it's a real hot button with me when someone implies that Stardock somehow swooped in and cashed in on the work of some already big skinning community.

Some people, mostly msstyles people, neglect the fact that without WindowBlinds, there'd be no uxtheme in the first place. So instead of complaining about Stardock making its measely $20 on WindowBlinds they'd likely be skinning nothing.

I remember back in 97 we were designing "WindowFX" (what we later rebranded to WindowBlinds when we teamed up with Neil Banfield who was also working on this sort of thing at the same time and later reused the name for what is now WindowFX).  Our lead on it said "This is gotta be impossible, if it was possible to apply new looks to Windows, someone would have already done it." (after all, Win95 had been out going on 3 years by that point).  It just turned out to be really really hard.  As soon as our public beta showed up Object Desktop, Mian and Toasty began working on their free alternative "eFX" (now you know where the FX came from in its name).

But anyone who thinks that GUI skinning on Windows was inevitable is mistaken. It was not obvious that it coudl be done and it was a huge pain to do.  People like Bant were only able to create their skins because other people, back before he could drive a car, bet their livelyhoods that they could create a product that could skin the Windows GUI.  Once WindowBlinds was out and successful, it demosntrated the proof of concept to Microsoft that made uxtheme in XP a reality.

My response....

Some names are universally known....no matter where or what site you may be on.....their efforts and contributions to this environment we refer to as 'the skinning community' have a 'history'.
I fear Bant is perhaps deluded at best as to his own [contribution].

There are skinners....like Grimspoon...or Doodlebug...to name but two who may be missed in their absence....and others that may just be 'forgotten'.

If you 'must' go, then go....but don't debase the reputations of others as you leave.

Well said, Jafo.  Bant was best known for creating a few minimalistic skins. They were very good and I believe he is very talented.

But skinners, the truly good ones, are the ones who have contributed a great deal to the community for lots of different reasons.  We all do it for any number of reasons. But whether you're a skinner or a developer, greed is not a factor. There are a lot easier ways in this world to make money than skinning. But there are few ways that are as rewarding or enjoyable. Is that bad? I'd say no.

For me, it's about the community. That's why I hang out on so many different sites. I enjoy the people. I enjoy tryign new things. I enjoy seeing what people do. I get a kick out of talking to people from around the world (even today).

I am honored to work on software that lets people express themselves creatively and I am honored to be part of a website that enables them to share their works with millions of people.

My response to Bant...........

Do I know you?

Another interesting note:

http://web.archive.org/web/19990125085316/http://customize.org/

This is the URL that will show you customize.org as it was in January of 1999.

Back then your "customization" options were these 4 things: MP3 programs, Neoplanet, eFX, and WindowBlinds. 

From there things expanded.  IconPackager became a viable way to chagne all your Windows icons.  DesktopX, Litestep, Hoverdesk, NeXTStart soon came onto the scene. And pretty soon customization was going.

But the customization community took a lot of hard work by a lot of people who gave freely because they enjoyed what they were doing.

None of those skinners back then would have ever thrown a fit about some developer charging $20 for their work because they KNEW what was involved in getting this stuff to work.

Top skinners get praised to high heaven.  But how often is NeilBor BrianH or AlbertoR or AdamN's praises sung? People who made it possible in the firt place. Rarely. People barely know who they are. People like Bant win these adoring fans and for what? Because he made a few skins over a period of a few months? These are guys who stuck to it for half a decade now. How can anyone possibly begrudge that they be able to make a living doing this? What would be the incentive otherwise to do what is often a thankless task of intense tedium? 

Ah......Fli7e....$teven....now there's some names....

One person had left a blunt comment about it just being a cry for attention. I would agree 100% with him. Sad thing is it appears to have worked very well. He got frogboy's attention didn't he? Why else would he pull his work off?

what brad has said here and others have said along these same lines elsewhere are correct in my opinion. the guy is/was good. his wb skin was very good. gut from the very beginning, he voiced his displeasure with stardock and it's apps. that part i never understood since he had said (if i remember correctly) tha the hadn't tried them. then when he did actually use the apps, he made a darned good blind but said he'd never make one again. it was hard to understand. also, i've noticed brad must have the same keyboard i have. coudl = could, firt = first, and so on. i don't feel so bad now thanks, brad. take that, snowy!

bant has updated his journal again...

http://bant.deviantart.com/journal/2620596/

Idle Bant(er) by this bant(ling) bant(am) weight.

Young bant must not have a clue as to what he is sayng. I have read both links, and I am convinced he thinks Stardock is "selling" skins for a profit on a regular basis. Did he not pay attention to the diclaimers? Did he not realise that there are bill to pay? Did he not realise that a majority of WC members used up all the freebies they could get before subscribing? did he not realise that we upload what we make not for profit, but for love? Just a few questions that maybe he should answer.

Perhaps, like all good conspiracy theorists, Bant has come to realize that controlling GUI customization is the real road to power in this world.

Forget the oil companies, the automobile manufacturers, the international banks and the secret governments. These things are trivial to the power that is skinning.

We must stop the evil empire that is secretly working behind the scenes to dominate our desktops, pursue our pixels and grab our GUI.

Fight the power!


(Sometimes, when my tongue is planted in my cheek for long periods of time a permanent bulge in my face results.)

I have never even heard of Bant or have seen anything that he has made so.............

Either way I do not like anyone knocking Stardock so I did read this thread.

Good response to the entire comment Brad.
I never heard of Bant until a couple of months ago with the start-off of the GUIO and a few topics here about minimalistic skins, so I came across his work and as Brad mentioned, he does good work, but it seems that his concept in regards to what skinning is and the reasons behind it are totally disrupted. It seems to me that he is more disgusted with the reaction he is getting (or has gotten) from people than the whole skinning experience.
What I do find rather tasteless is the fact that he drags the companies and their products thru the whole ordeal. I mean, if you are going to quit skinning for whatever reason, then by all means do so, but making bold and unfounded statements against the tools and the companies that have provided them and that you have used for years its totally inappropriate.
I stared (as many others) skinning with and for SD/WC, I have since uploaded and contributed to other sites, and what started as a fun 'hobby' became a source of income for me.
Bottom line is regardless of what company or product you use, skinning is what you make of it. Anything else is pure non-sense.

wow