What the hell is going on with WB skins?
Thursday, June 3, 2004 by Fuzzy Logic | Discussion: WinCustomize Talk
Is it me or are people suddenly uploading any old crap? I've been through the latest WB uploads to do a proper assessment of each and more than half of them are unfinished or have major errors. And now the latest one has nothing in it - how is any Joe Bloggs downloading that supposed to use it?
Come on people, get your act together. Take a bit more care over what you upload for goodness sake >
Come on people, get your act together. Take a bit more care over what you upload for goodness sake >
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Ande
Reply #22 Thursday, June 3, 2004 7:35 PM
Reply #22 Thursday, June 3, 2004 7:35 PM
Could a system be implemented to enable newbees to send their initial efforts to experienced skinners (volunteers) for a critique prior to upload to wincustomise. Otherwise their learning curve will only be through the hit and miss method coupled with adverse comments on WC.
You might say "Well i learnt the hard way so can they" But with many budding skinners arriving on the scene, (with little or no experience), skins that are possibily not up to scratch, will continue to be uploaded. And, of course they want to be part of the action and see their name in lights. It's the nature of the beast.
. Just some thoughts.
You might say "Well i learnt the hard way so can they" But with many budding skinners arriving on the scene, (with little or no experience), skins that are possibily not up to scratch, will continue to be uploaded. And, of course they want to be part of the action and see their name in lights. It's the nature of the beast.
. Just some thoughts.
Essencay
Reply #23 Thursday, June 3, 2004 7:41 PM
Reply #23 Thursday, June 3, 2004 7:41 PM
I agree wholeheartedly with Fuzzy and it's tough to try to put forward a postive note on a skin that's riddled errors that could easily have been fixed before uploading and at the same time offer to tell the skinner what needs to be fixed. I download every WB skin, I use every skin and I open every skin in SkinStudio. I get the impression from Fuzzy's comments that he does the same. The ones that kill me the most are the ones where you can see that the skinner definitely knows his way around a graphics proggie and can produce some outstanding images, but then botches it all when turning them into a WB skin.
NT...your skins have grown in quality with every new skin and unlike some of these most recent skins....you were open to constructive critism in the beginning on what needed to be fixed
The ones that kill me the most are the ones where you can see that the skinner definitely knows his way around a graphics proggie and can produce some outstanding images, but then botches it all when turning them into a WB skin.NT...your skins have grown in quality with every new skin and unlike some of these most recent skins....you were open to constructive critism in the beginning on what needed to be fixed
Essencay
Reply #24 Thursday, June 3, 2004 7:48 PM
Reply #24 Thursday, June 3, 2004 7:48 PM
And to add to what Bones is offering to set up at Skinartistry....I'd be more than happy to work with any skinner with a WIP and/or offer a detailed review of their work via email....more than a comment on the upload here can offer. My strength my not be graphics creation, but I've gotten pretty good going through a skin considering I've downloaded 600MB+ worth from here.
Fuzzy Logic
Reply #25 Friday, June 4, 2004 4:10 AM
Reply #25 Friday, June 4, 2004 4:10 AM
Essencay has it. When I review a skin I download it, use it and open it in SkinStudio. Usually, problems can be fixed easily. I've started to leave comments which are intended to help the skin be fixed, but some people don't appreciate it 
So I don't know now if it's worth doing that
I thinks the problem here is the honesty of comments. Everyone puts things like "wow, that's incredible" when some of the buttons are unreadable etc. Instead of being honest and saying that grey text on a grey button doesn't work... It's not hard to see that half the comments are left by people who haven't even used the skin...
NT: None of this was aimed at you
I believe I left one small critique on one of your skins which was intended to help...hope it read that way
feline: the skin in question was removed. You could open it with SkinStudio, but it only had a few graphics and nothing else. It could not be used as a skin. When people click the download button they expect a WB skin to install!
And then there's the people who rated it - they failed the IQ test! I hope the Admins were taking names...
So I don't know now if it's worth doing that I thinks the problem here is the honesty of comments. Everyone puts things like "wow, that's incredible" when some of the buttons are unreadable etc. Instead of being honest and saying that grey text on a grey button doesn't work... It's not hard to see that half the comments are left by people who haven't even used the skin...
NT: None of this was aimed at you
I believe I left one small critique on one of your skins which was intended to help...hope it read that way feline: the skin in question was removed. You could open it with SkinStudio, but it only had a few graphics and nothing else. It could not be used as a skin. When people click the download button they expect a WB skin to install!
And then there's the people who rated it - they failed the IQ test! I hope the Admins were taking names...
NightTrainthedark
Reply #26 Friday, June 4, 2004 7:01 AM
Reply #26 Friday, June 4, 2004 7:01 AM
Fuzzy, Your comment was most appreciated. Its the perfect example of someone looking at something with a fresh pair of eyes and seeing what I missed even though I stared at the skin forever as I worked on it. Those are the comments that are needed. Thank you.
Essencay has been doing an excellent job in reviewing everyone's skins. I wish (and fear) for other's to do the same. After awhile you can tell the difference between people that can handle constructive critisism and those who can't. You just have to keep track of them and help out the people that will listen and avoid the one's that can't take any critisism whatsoever.
Mgiff, you are one of the good people. You can handle the critisism. Thanks for the support.
TO ALL THE NEWBIES: If you have some work that you would like to get some input on prior to uploading, there are many people that will help out. I have gotten the best advice from people I sent a skin to prior to uploading. Koasati has always stepped right up to help out alot of people. There are many others but He is one you can count on if he offers. When I first started skinning I uploaded work hoping to get input before finishing it. This is not a good way to get help. Useful comments are very rare.
I would be glad to help anyone out by reviewing their work. If essencay offers, grab it. His reviews are complete. No offense to anyone else that helps out but Ess is the king right now.
Final note: In my opinion it would be very beneficial to skinners if people could only comment if they downloaded the skin. No download, no comment.
As far as not showing the download counts. I have mixed feelings. I like to see that a skin has thousands of downloads. It tells me that it is popular and there is something worth checking out. You can't really go by the comments or the ratings because we all know how misleading and bogus they can get.
Essencay has been doing an excellent job in reviewing everyone's skins. I wish (and fear) for other's to do the same. After awhile you can tell the difference between people that can handle constructive critisism and those who can't. You just have to keep track of them and help out the people that will listen and avoid the one's that can't take any critisism whatsoever.
Mgiff, you are one of the good people. You can handle the critisism. Thanks for the support.
TO ALL THE NEWBIES: If you have some work that you would like to get some input on prior to uploading, there are many people that will help out. I have gotten the best advice from people I sent a skin to prior to uploading. Koasati has always stepped right up to help out alot of people. There are many others but He is one you can count on if he offers. When I first started skinning I uploaded work hoping to get input before finishing it. This is not a good way to get help. Useful comments are very rare.
I would be glad to help anyone out by reviewing their work. If essencay offers, grab it. His reviews are complete. No offense to anyone else that helps out but Ess is the king right now.
Final note: In my opinion it would be very beneficial to skinners if people could only comment if they downloaded the skin. No download, no comment.
As far as not showing the download counts. I have mixed feelings. I like to see that a skin has thousands of downloads. It tells me that it is popular and there is something worth checking out. You can't really go by the comments or the ratings because we all know how misleading and bogus they can get.
WOM
Reply #27 Friday, June 4, 2004 8:27 AM
Reply #27 Friday, June 4, 2004 8:27 AM
If I've commented and or rated a WB, I've downloaded and installed it.I read the comments on the skins that I'am thinking of downloading. I look at the comments of the people I know because I know they downloaded it before commenting. (ie. FuzzyLogic and others) If they found a bunch of bugs, I don't bother to download it.
It does suprise me how a skin can get so many good comments and and good ratings when it doesn't work or when it has a lot of flaws.
People can and have posted here asking for someone to test their skins. I've even tested some, but I don't do it much anymore. Tired of having my machine locking up.
Who cares if you can see the download count or the ratings.Thats not the problem. Putting up good work is and beening able to take the comments for what they are worth,helpfull ways to improve.Just because someone has put a lot of hours into a skin is not justification for not recieving the comments.
Don't bother to check my library, its empty.
/ne doesn't skin.
It does suprise me how a skin can get so many good comments and and good ratings when it doesn't work or when it has a lot of flaws.
People can and have posted here asking for someone to test their skins. I've even tested some, but I don't do it much anymore. Tired of having my machine locking up.
Who cares if you can see the download count or the ratings.Thats not the problem. Putting up good work is and beening able to take the comments for what they are worth,helpfull ways to improve.Just because someone has put a lot of hours into a skin is not justification for not recieving the comments.
Don't bother to check my library, its empty.
/ne doesn't skin.
_footsie_
Reply #28 Friday, June 4, 2004 9:03 AM
Reply #28 Friday, June 4, 2004 9:03 AM
I know this is probably way outta line because I don't skin myself...and frankly I don't understand my computer very well much less any of the tech stuff that goes with it but...
I wonder if some of the more experienced skinners and techies here might be willing to set up a 'beta testing' type area where newbies can have their skins tested by knowleagable skinners on possibly a variety of system levels (different OS with different capabilities might generate a better idea of whether a particular skin will run on a particular OS) and get feedback on them maybe in another sidebar messageboard or something...
That way some of us that are technically challenged wouldn't have to worry so much about how to get our systems back in case we screw up or download a buggy skin
I dunno
what do you think? Do you think there might be enough people secure enough in their knowledge that might want to take the time and trouble to volunteer to 'beta test' some of the newer or more resource demanding skins before they are added to the libraries?
just a thought
I wonder if some of the more experienced skinners and techies here might be willing to set up a 'beta testing' type area where newbies can have their skins tested by knowleagable skinners on possibly a variety of system levels (different OS with different capabilities might generate a better idea of whether a particular skin will run on a particular OS) and get feedback on them maybe in another sidebar messageboard or something...
That way some of us that are technically challenged wouldn't have to worry so much about how to get our systems back in case we screw up or download a buggy skin
I dunno
what do you think? Do you think there might be enough people secure enough in their knowledge that might want to take the time and trouble to volunteer to 'beta test' some of the newer or more resource demanding skins before they are added to the libraries?
just a thought
joetheblow
Reply #29 Friday, June 4, 2004 11:17 AM
Your too much Fuzzy.
I sort of noticed that too but then again some of those skins seemed quite popular. I guess they are not my style. Some of them actually were complete skins (to my reasoning complete is most of the gui skinned per WB 3.5 and up).
Reply #29 Friday, June 4, 2004 11:17 AM
| by JourneyMan Fuzzy Logic - 6/3/2004 6:52:55 AM Is it me or are people suddenly uploading any old crap? |
Your too much Fuzzy.
I sort of noticed that too but then again some of those skins seemed quite popular. I guess they are not my style. Some of them actually were complete skins (to my reasoning complete is most of the gui skinned per WB 3.5 and up).
Fuzzy Logic
Reply #30 Friday, June 4, 2004 11:22 AM
Reply #30 Friday, June 4, 2004 11:22 AM
Incomplete didn't mean parts unskinned (which is up to the skinner), but parts abandoned mid-skinning
Fuzzy Logic
Reply #31 Friday, June 4, 2004 11:39 AM
Reply #31 Friday, June 4, 2004 11:39 AM
I don't know about a section to upload beta skins. It may work but I have a feeling very few would use it. I'm always willing to help people with their skins. Often all it takes is a fresh pair of eyes or different opinion. I usually send my skins out to someone for them to give a second opinion, and there's always something you miss or forget.
It would be nice to see greater co-operation between skinners. We have a lot of people with knowledge and a lot more wanting to learn. Skinning is all about having fun, but it can be very frustrating when you get stuck with something. There's always someone willing to help though, that's what communities are for. It's just bringing it all together
At the end of the day Joe Public wants a nice desktop without having to acquire technical knowledge. That's great. But if they are going to get buggy skins, they aren't going to be happy, they'll blame the program, the company etc etc. You might be making a skin for yourself, but the minute you upload it for public use, you must accept the responsibility which comes with that.
It would be nice to see greater co-operation between skinners. We have a lot of people with knowledge and a lot more wanting to learn. Skinning is all about having fun, but it can be very frustrating when you get stuck with something. There's always someone willing to help though, that's what communities are for. It's just bringing it all together
At the end of the day Joe Public wants a nice desktop without having to acquire technical knowledge. That's great. But if they are going to get buggy skins, they aren't going to be happy, they'll blame the program, the company etc etc. You might be making a skin for yourself, but the minute you upload it for public use, you must accept the responsibility which comes with that.
DesignCaddy
Reply #32 Friday, June 4, 2004 11:40 AM
Reply #32 Friday, June 4, 2004 11:40 AM
hehe. like, half of a border skinner, resize icon skinned but not the closed button?
Essencay
Reply #33 Friday, June 4, 2004 11:44 AM
Reply #33 Friday, June 4, 2004 11:44 AM
Margins, fonts not set, colors not set, margins, dialog and window backgrounds not set, margins, anti-alias on a magic pink background and did I mention margins.
cybermessiah
Reply #34 Friday, June 4, 2004 1:15 PM
Reply #34 Friday, June 4, 2004 1:15 PM
Essencay....I agree that criticism is good. You helped me alot in understanding more about the proggie and was able to use ur criticism to make the skin better for everyone....Oh by the way.. ..I updated the skin with a new lot of stuff fixed and changed from the comments i recieved...and chose major update...but now the skin is gone and i notice its the current favorite, but not there...hope that wont cause hasles for too many ppl.
But man....that was my first attempt at using Skin studio, so was learning along the way and really appreciate any constructive criticism...if used wisely it makes it better for everyone. Wish i had ur knowledge of the proggies.
Cheerz.
..I updated the skin with a new lot of stuff fixed and changed from the comments i recieved...and chose major update...but now the skin is gone and i notice its the current favorite, but not there...hope that wont cause hasles for too many ppl.But man....that was my first attempt at using Skin studio, so was learning along the way and really appreciate any constructive criticism...if used wisely it makes it better for everyone. Wish i had ur knowledge of the proggies.
Cheerz.
Essencay
Reply #35 Friday, June 4, 2004 2:27 PM
Reply #35 Friday, June 4, 2004 2:27 PM
cybermessiah....Thank You and you are so right....everyone benefits when the artists understand the proggies
and you are so right....everyone benefits when the artists understand the proggies
joetheblow
Reply #36 Friday, June 4, 2004 9:16 PM
anything else? what about the margins?
Reply #36 Friday, June 4, 2004 9:16 PM
| #33 by Scribe Essencay - 6/4/2004 11:44:44 AM Margins, fonts not set, colors not set, margins, dialog and window backgrounds not set, margins, anti-alias on a magic pink background and did I mention margins. |
anything else? what about the margins?
Fuzzy Logic
Reply #37 Friday, June 4, 2004 9:19 PM
Reply #37 Friday, June 4, 2004 9:19 PM
Fuzzy Logic makes note to self: make sure margins are set correctly...
Essencay
Reply #38 Saturday, June 5, 2004 7:42 AM
Reply #38 Saturday, June 5, 2004 7:42 AM
Personally I think most of my work falls into the 5-7 rating range. Nothing that I create has anything particularly stellar about it. Pretty basic skins with pretty basic and general graphics, without major errors that will bork your computer. To get my skins up into the 8-9 range I figured I've got to get a whole lot better with creating images and add some pizazz to my skins. For now, I'm happy with what I make and I keep trying to get better with each new skin. Some day I'll finally make that show-stopper skin, who knows.
Oh, the reason for this post, and generally why any skinner starts to ask about ratings....is a rating they got they can't quite understand. I did a search for "rating" so that I could understand some things about them and how others feel about them. My feelings on WBSkins ratings are as follows:
1 Yikes! Major malfunctions, needs to be completely overhauled, will most likely bork your computer, this is a bad, bad skin that needs to be eradicated from this world.
2 Pretty much the same as above, but may have some artistic merit and someone might take the chance to fix it in SkinStudio, but it definitely needs to be fixed, as is, it's still unuseable.
3 Skin isn't going to break anything. Can be recognised for what it is a GUI replacement. This skin has issues with it, but these issues can easily be fixed. This skin if someone would've had it tested it prior to uploading would have rated much higher.
4 Again pretty much the same as a 3, but either there are fewer errors or there is a definite quality to the graphics being used.
5 Basic, average, run of the mill, etc. skin that doesn't appear to the average user to have any errors in it, but may have a few minor things that need tweaking.
6 Basically the same as a 5, but the author has done a few things to set his skin apart from the run of the mill drib-drab.
7 Same as a 5 or 6, but the skin has a nice graphic flair and complete feel to it or an error free skin with more mundane blah-blah graphics.
8 No errors that are apparent without using ripping it open in SkinStudio and going over every detail with a fine-toothed comb. 8 is a threshold, where quality and completeness of the skin shows. When I say completeness, I don't mean everything is skinned, ie. toolbar icons and animations, but everything that is skinned works together to create a cool looking skin and anything that isn't skinned doesn't distract from the overall appearance of the skin.
9 No errors and has a wow factor to it. This skin is a tight package and everyone wants to port this baby over to DesktopX, Sysmetrix and every other skinnable app.
10 Skinning Nirvana a place where the great skinners hang out Skins that flawlessly transform your desktop. That you'd pay money for to use them.
Those numbers aren't hardened in stone for me. I sometimes rate skins higher for graphics quality because I'm envious of the skinner's talent.
Anyway what I found out was if your skin gets posted with a standard 6 out of moderation. When the first mary, joe or bob comes along that rates your skin, the 6 is tossed out and that becomes the benchmark.
Macrobaye made the appeal before, Fuzzy and I have expressed our concerns about the latest batch of skins. Please rate skins and please comment. Thanks for taking the time to read my drivel And thanks to everyone who goes out of their way to rate and comment on skins.
Oh, the reason for this post, and generally why any skinner starts to ask about ratings....is a rating they got they can't quite understand. I did a search for "rating" so that I could understand some things about them and how others feel about them. My feelings on WBSkins ratings are as follows:
1 Yikes! Major malfunctions, needs to be completely overhauled, will most likely bork your computer, this is a bad, bad skin that needs to be eradicated from this world.
2 Pretty much the same as above, but may have some artistic merit and someone might take the chance to fix it in SkinStudio, but it definitely needs to be fixed, as is, it's still unuseable.
3 Skin isn't going to break anything. Can be recognised for what it is a GUI replacement. This skin has issues with it, but these issues can easily be fixed. This skin if someone would've had it tested it prior to uploading would have rated much higher.
4 Again pretty much the same as a 3, but either there are fewer errors or there is a definite quality to the graphics being used.
5 Basic, average, run of the mill, etc. skin that doesn't appear to the average user to have any errors in it, but may have a few minor things that need tweaking.
6 Basically the same as a 5, but the author has done a few things to set his skin apart from the run of the mill drib-drab.
7 Same as a 5 or 6, but the skin has a nice graphic flair and complete feel to it or an error free skin with more mundane blah-blah graphics.
8 No errors that are apparent without using ripping it open in SkinStudio and going over every detail with a fine-toothed comb. 8 is a threshold, where quality and completeness of the skin shows. When I say completeness, I don't mean everything is skinned, ie. toolbar icons and animations, but everything that is skinned works together to create a cool looking skin and anything that isn't skinned doesn't distract from the overall appearance of the skin.
9 No errors and has a wow factor to it. This skin is a tight package and everyone wants to port this baby over to DesktopX, Sysmetrix and every other skinnable app.
10 Skinning Nirvana a place where the great skinners hang out
Skins that flawlessly transform your desktop. That you'd pay money for to use them.Those numbers aren't hardened in stone for me. I sometimes rate skins higher for graphics quality because I'm envious of the skinner's talent.
Anyway what I found out was if your skin gets posted with a standard 6 out of moderation. When the first mary, joe or bob comes along that rates your skin, the 6 is tossed out and that becomes the benchmark.
Macrobaye made the appeal before, Fuzzy and I have expressed our concerns about the latest batch of skins. Please rate skins and please comment. Thanks for taking the time to read my drivel
And thanks to everyone who goes out of their way to rate and comment on skins.
NightTrainthedark
Reply #39 Saturday, June 5, 2004 8:46 AM
Reply #39 Saturday, June 5, 2004 8:46 AM
Someone was up early with the wheels turning. Great post. Thank you!
Koasati
Reply #40 Saturday, June 5, 2004 9:24 AM
Reply #40 Saturday, June 5, 2004 9:24 AM
| Anyway what I found out was if your skin gets posted with a standard 6 out of moderation. When the first mary, joe or bob comes along that rates your skin, the 6 is tossed out and that becomes the benchmark. |
This is ony true for skins that by-pass moderation, skins uploaded by Journeymen or above. If a skin goes through moderation, the rating given by the Moderator remains,and is averaged into the score.
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Reply #21 Thursday, June 3, 2004 7:34 PM